Heritage Auctions Thread

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

4 minutes ago, GPX said:

Following on from previous point, this is why none of us can point out illegal shenanigans with facts, unless we know all the ins and outs of WATA/HA’s  dealings. Most of us can only postulate.

And anybody who actually does know something for sure about the inner workings sure isn't saying anything, presumably because of the potential for legal repercussions.

[GPX | 1,369]

8 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

And anybody who actually does know something for sure about the inner workings sure isn't saying anything, presumably because of the potential for legal repercussions.

It saddens me honestly, whenever I have to talk about the graded scene in a negative way. I have both graded and CIB games, and I wish like most on here for the collecting scene to expand and prosper. On the other hand, I’m not a fan of unethical practices and I wish there is now some self-awareness on the current manipulators, whoever they are.

[RH | 4,903]

A couple of random, but related thoughts.

First, I've seen it mentioned, and I get the sense that Deniz comes from money. Probably serious money. I mention this because in my life, I've managed to get to be around or know just a few, truly wealthy people that were born into it and we're at least second-generation wealth. Now, I am "captialist", so long as people engage in ethical business.  That said, what I've observed with the wealthy is that with most of them, there is a money-angle to everything. Involvement in anything is always an investment. Buying a house is largely about buying a property that should always have a reasonable ROI, even if they plan to own it for the rest of their lives. Buying a car might be a status symbol, but it shows they are "legit bbusiness and needs to look good facing potential clients and business partners. If they get into hobbies, they may legitimately enjoy "playing" with the toys but if there is money to be made on the hobby, profit potential has to be a part of it. IMHO, Deniz did what money does. He loves games, I don't doubt it, but if he was raised with a wealthy mindset, starting a business like this made perfect sense to him, and of course there was always the intended angle to the endeavor to build more wealth.

I think most of us put our life-desires above our wealth-ambitions. Big, old money is the inverse. Again, I don't fault this lifestyle, so long as all financial endeavours are ethical. Assuming all the info that's been brought to light this past week is reasonably accurate, I think Deniz just tried to make a really solid, profitable business based off of his hobby. I think his biggest downfall is his zeal for profits, paired with his youthful ignorance (didn't he start Wata in his early 20s) meant that he crossed the line of shadiness a few times that were quite glaring, but I don't think he's done anything outright dirty (unless I missed something.)

However, I did hear at one point on this site (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that Deniz' Dad was heavy in the comic collecting scene. I'm going to make a leap and guess his Dad connected him with Heritage and maybe advised him to connect with them to help build Wata. Deniz is sort of the mastermind of starting Wata, but considering his young age, I assume someone he already knew connected him to Heritage and Halpern. I guess it was his Dad, who if he was a big comic buyer, probably already knew Jim on a first name basis. When Jim got involved, he probably smelled a fresh market and became a large influencer of all the scaminess. To me, and I could be completely wrong, but Deniz seems like a rich, highly-motivated "patsy" in all of this.

Now, second thought.  Whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, we are ALL speculators to some extent. Do you buy games to flip them and become MEGA-RICH $$$$!!1!11 With this crowd, certainly not. But let me ask you this, have you ever paid attention to games and systems that you care nothing about JUST SO if you see a Jaguar, or 3DO game at a yard sale, you might know if it's worth picking up to flip? Forget flipping it for cash. How about being aware of what's rare or desirable so you can use it as trade fodder? That's speculation. How about buying lots of games? Have you ever bought a lot of 10-20 games in a lot because you knew you could sell 80% of the lot and get the 20% for free! And last, you ever find someone needing to make a quick sale of a sealed game or two, and you had the slightest inkling that the related game market was heating up? Whether you bought the games to sell or trade, it's still speculation.

My point ii whether you do it just a llittl by buying sizable cheap lots, or you love gaming collecting and decided to open a retro gaming shop to make a career out of your hobby, or your even someone like Deniz who took it to the next level and decided to make it a profitable business that saw the hobby as an investment opportunity, we all see this hobby as having an element of speculation and profitability.

To be clear though, I'm not standing up for poor or unethical business practice, and certainly anything illegal that the FTC might get involved with. However, it's easy for some of us (myself included) to get on our high horses and think we are better than people like Deniz and the other long time collectors that started Wata. The truth is, we all have the same motivations for at least a little side profit (even if that profit fuels more game collecting), but the extent to which we have those motivations may be considerably different. For some of us, profits are a distant secondary or tertiary motivation. For people like Deniz and the dentist guy, profits come first. I don't see myself in these guys when I look at my whole collection... but I do when I look at some items I own like a sealed, cherry Solatarobo, or other mint rare games I've managed to get that I have no affection for, but I think will provid good trade fodder for in the future, or if really lucky, might put a kid through a year of college.

Speculation is not my collecting focus, but it'd be dishonest to say I've not commited many acts of "speculative collecting" in the 5 years I've been doing this.  In a small sense, I'm not entirely different than some of these players. Not exactly the same, but there are some similar motivations. It's simply worth keeping that into perspective before grabbing pitchforks and wanting the whole lot of involved parties.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

45 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

And anybody who actually does know something for sure about the inner workings sure isn't saying anything, presumably because of the potential for legal repercussions.

Legal repercussions from the company that bought them, more likely.

Anyone in the inner workings almost certainly signed away their ability to talk openly about anything without permission from higher up the chain.

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

5 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Legal repercussions from the company that bought them, more likely.

Anyone in the inner workings almost certainly signed away their ability to talk openly about anything without permission from higher up the chain.

That’s exactly what I’m guessing as well. 

[Rhapsody98 | 1,535]

31 minutes ago, RH said:

A couple of random, but related thoughts.

First, I've seen it mentioned, and I get the sense that Deniz comes from money. Probably serious money. I mention this because in my life, I've managed to get to be around or know just a few, truly wealthy people that were born into it and we're at least second-generation wealth. Now, I am "captialist", so long as people engage in ethical business.  That said, what I've observed with the wealthy is that with most of them, there is a money-angle to everything. Involvement in anything is always an investment. Buying a house is largely about buying a property that should always have a reasonable ROI, even if they plan to own it for the rest of their lives. Buying a car might be a status symbol, but it shows they are "legit bbusiness and needs to look good facing potential clients and business partners. If they get into hobbies, they may legitimately enjoy "playing" with the toys but if there is money to be made on the hobby, profit potential has to be a part of it. IMHO, Deniz did what money does. He loves games, I don't doubt it, but if he was raised with a wealthy mindset, starting a business like this made perfect sense to him, and of course there was always the intended angle to the endeavor to build more wealth.

I think most of us put our life-desires above our wealth-ambitions. Big, old money is the inverse. Again, I don't fault this lifestyle, so long as all financial endeavours are ethical. Assuming all the info that's been brought to light this past week is reasonably accurate, I think Deniz just tried to make a really solid, profitable business based off of his hobby. I think his biggest downfall is his zeal for profits, paired with his youthful ignorance (didn't he start Wata in his early 20s) meant that he crossed the line of shadiness a few times that were quite glaring, but I don't think he's done anything outright dirty (unless I missed something.)

However, I did hear at one point on this site (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that Deniz' Dad was heavy in the comic collecting scene. I'm going to make a leap and guess his Dad connected him with Heritage and maybe advised him to connect with them to help build Wata. Deniz is sort of the mastermind of starting Wata, but considering his young age, I assume someone he already knew connected him to Heritage and Halpern. I guess it was his Dad, who if he was a big comic buyer, probably already knew Jim on a first name basis. When Jim got involved, he probably smelled a fresh market and became a large influencer of all the scaminess. To me, and I could be completely wrong, but Deniz seems like a rich, highly-motivated "patsy" in all of this.

Now, second thought.  Whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, we are ALL speculators to some extent. Do you buy games to flip them and become MEGA-RICH $$$$!!1!11 With this crowd, certainly not. But let me ask you this, have you ever paid attention to games and systems that you care nothing about JUST SO if you see a Jaguar, or 3DO game at a yard sale, you might know if it's worth picking up to flip? Forget flipping it for cash. How about being aware of what's rare or desirable so you can use it as trade fodder? That's speculation. How about buying lots of games? Have you ever bought a lot of 10-20 games in a lot because you knew you could sell 80% of the lot and get the 20% for free! And last, you ever find someone needing to make a quick sale of a sealed game or two, and you had the slightest inkling that the related game market was heating up? Whether you bought the games to sell or trade, it's still speculation.

My point ii whether you do it just a llittl by buying sizable cheap lots, or you love gaming collecting and decided to open a retro gaming shop to make a career out of your hobby, or your even someone like Deniz who took it to the next level and decided to make it a profitable business that saw the hobby as an investment opportunity, we all see this hobby as having an element of speculation and profitability.

To be clear though, I'm not standing up for poor or unethical business practice, and certainly anything illegal that the FTC might get involved with. However, it's easy for some of us (myself included) to get on our high horses and think we are better than people like Deniz and the other long time collectors that started Wata. The truth is, we all have the same motivations for at least a little side profit (even if that profit fuels more game collecting), but the extent to which we have those motivations may be considerably different. For some of us, profits are a distant secondary or tertiary motivation. For people like Deniz and the dentist guy, profits come first. I don't see myself in these guys when I look at my whole collection... but I do when I look at some items I own like a sealed, cherry Solatarobo, or other mint rare games I've managed to get that I have no affection for, but I think will provid good trade fodder for in the future, or if really lucky, might put a kid through a year of college.

Speculation is not my collecting focus, but it'd be dishonest to say I've not commited many acts of "speculative collecting" in the 5 years I've been doing this.  In a small sense, I'm not entirely different than some of these players. Not exactly the same, but there are some similar motivations. It's simply worth keeping that into perspective before grabbing pitchforks and wanting the whole lot of involved parties.

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

5 minutes ago, Rhapsody98 said:

Hey you can't re-use jokes from Werewolf, they're gonna get stale at some point, haha

[The Count | 527]

Damn, seeing some old names in here along with our newer group reminds me of how large this collector base really is.

[Foochie776 | 1,052]

2 minutes ago, The Count said:

Damn, seeing some old names in here along with our newer group reminds me of how large this collector base really is.

Kind of wild isn’t it? 

[Rhapsody98 | 1,535]

29 minutes ago, ZeldaFreak said:

Hey you can't re-use jokes from Werewolf, they're gonna get stale at some point, haha

I only have so many TL:DR pony memes.  LOL

[Gentlegamer | 174]

2 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

I still have his nearly-complete original Macintosh (boxes, manuals, accessories, the works) -- that I'm either going to refurbish myself, or at least find a real collector to sell it to.

 

Check with the folks at https://www.vintagecomputing.com/

[GPX | 1,369]

20 minutes ago, RH said:

A couple of random, but related thoughts.

First, I've seen it mentioned, and I get the sense that Deniz comes from money. Probably serious money. I mention this because in my life, I've managed to get to be around or know just a few, truly wealthy people that were born into it and we're at least second-generation wealth. Now, I am "captialist", so long as people engage in ethical business.  That said, what I've observed with the wealthy is that with most of them, there is a money-angle to everything. Involvement in anything is always an investment. Buying a house is largely about buying a property that should always have a reasonable ROI, even if they plan to own it for the rest of their lives. Buying a car might be a status symbol, but it shows they are "legit bbusiness and needs to look good facing potential clients and business partners. If they get into hobbies, they may legitimately enjoy "playing" with the toys but if there is money to be made on the hobby, profit potential has to be a part of it. IMHO, Deniz did what money does. He loves games, I don't doubt it, but if he was raised with a wealthy mindset, starting a business like this made perfect sense to him, and of course there was always the intended angle to the endeavor to build more wealth.

I think most of us put our life-desires above our wealth-ambitions. Big, old money is the inverse. Again, I don't fault this lifestyle, so long as all financial endeavours are ethical. Assuming all the info that's been brought to light this past week is reasonably accurate, I think Deniz just tried to make a really solid, profitable business based off of his hobby. I think his biggest downfall is his zeal for profits, paired with his youthful ignorance (didn't he start Wata in his early 20s) meant that he crossed the line of shadiness a few times that were quite glaring, but I don't think he's done anything outright dirty (unless I missed something.)

However, I did hear at one point on this site (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that Deniz' Dad was heavy in the comic collecting scene. I'm going to make a leap and guess his Dad connected him with Heritage and maybe advised him to connect with them to help build Wata. Deniz is sort of the mastermind of starting Wata, but considering his young age, I assume someone he already knew connected him to Heritage and Halpern. I guess it was his Dad, who if he was a big comic buyer, probably already knew Jim on a first name basis. When Jim got involved, he probably smelled a fresh market and became a large influencer of all the scaminess. To me, and I could be completely wrong, but Deniz seems like a rich, highly-motivated "patsy" in all of this.

Now, second thought.  Whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, we are ALL speculators to some extent. Do you buy games to flip them and become MEGA-RICH $$$$!!1!11 With this crowd, certainly not. But let me ask you this, have you ever paid attention to games and systems that you care nothing about JUST SO if you see a Jaguar, or 3DO game at a yard sale, you might know if it's worth picking up to flip? Forget flipping it for cash. How about being aware of what's rare or desirable so you can use it as trade fodder? That's speculation. How about buying lots of games? Have you ever bought a lot of 10-20 games in a lot because you knew you could sell 80% of the lot and get the 20% for free! And last, you ever find someone needing to make a quick sale of a sealed game or two, and you had the slightest inkling that the related game market was heating up? Whether you bought the games to sell or trade, it's still speculation.

My point ii whether you do it just a llittl by buying sizable cheap lots, or you love gaming collecting and decided to open a retro gaming shop to make a career out of your hobby, or your even someone like Deniz who took it to the next level and decided to make it a profitable business that saw the hobby as an investment opportunity, we all see this hobby as having an element of speculation and profitability.

To be clear though, I'm not standing up for poor or unethical business practice, and certainly anything illegal that the FTC might get involved with. However, it's easy for some of us (myself included) to get on our high horses and think we are better than people like Deniz and the other long time collectors that started Wata. The truth is, we all have the same motivations for at least a little side profit (even if that profit fuels more game collecting), but the extent to which we have those motivations may be considerably different. For some of us, profits are a distant secondary or tertiary motivation. For people like Deniz and the dentist guy, profits come first. I don't see myself in these guys when I look at my whole collection... but I do when I look at some items I own like a sealed, cherry Solatarobo, or other mint rare games I've managed to get that I have no affection for, but I think will provid good trade fodder for in the future, or if really lucky, might put a kid through a year of college.

Speculation is not my collecting focus, but it'd be dishonest to say I've not commited many acts of "speculative collecting" in the 5 years I've been doing this.  In a small sense, I'm not entirely different than some of these players. Not exactly the same, but there are some similar motivations. It's simply worth keeping that into perspective before grabbing pitchforks and wanting the whole lot of involved parties.

RH, there is nothing wrong with speculation. As collectors, we all need to monitor market values and speculate on trends when planning to buy or sell. It’s the fakery and mistruths that’s annoyed a lot of the collectors in the current market, and that fakery is being forced upon us as “nothing to see here, just accept it and move on.” 

 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, arch_8ngel said:

Legal repercussions from the company that bought them, more likely.

Anyone in the inner workings almost certainly signed away their ability to talk openly about anything without permission from higher up the chain.

I'd suspect that was always the case, with people knowing how the sausage was made being bound to NDAs that had some sort of severe punishment or another should they open their mouths.  There are, however, whistleblower laws in place to protect those brave enough to leak word out about potentially illegal things going on at their companies, which are designed to protect people from the repercussions of their actions, allow them to break their NDAs, etc.  If they were to leak to us, or the press, they'd absolutely be subject to NDA penalties, but if they were to talk to law enforcement or a prosecutor's office, that's usually something else entirely (typically A-OK until the company finds out, at which point they sue and try to find a sympathetic judge for a gag order, etc.).

[AdamW | 713]

41 minutes ago, GPX said:

RH, there is nothing wrong with speculation. As collectors, we all need to monitor market values and speculate on trends when planning to buy or sell. It’s the fakery and mistruths that’s annoyed a lot of the collectors in the current market, and that fakery is being forced upon us as “nothing to see here, just accept it and move on.” 

 

Nothing is being "forced upon" anyone. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion and state it. I don't think anyone has been telling anyone else what they can or can't think about it.

[GPX | 1,369]

18 minutes ago, AdamW said:

Nothing is being "forced upon" anyone. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion and state it. I don't think anyone has been telling anyone else what they can or can't think about it.

Not talking about throwing opinions on this board, but in reference to info after info whenever certain people (in the public arena) speak with the theme “prices are only going up; these new prices are nothing surprising”.

[FireHazard51 | 2,043]

Before I was all fuck Wata and HA!!! But my sealed minty fresh GameBoy game in the mail today so I'm ridding that bubble to the moon!!!  1+ Mil here I come. 

You anti-Wata people are just poor plebes...

[DarkKobold | 190]

5 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

Yes.  It's when you're "in the sealed collector game" but all you really do is buy up the stuff, sit on it briefly, then dump it when the price gets ridiculous, as it's clear those folks never really intended to collect at all.  And really, there's ultimately nothing wrong with that in and of itself (so long as those folks aren't the ones deliberately, artificially rallying all the investor types as has been discussed to death), but seriously, they shouldn't be calling themselves collectors at that point.  The moment you sell out, at best you're an enthusiast, at least to the point where you start collecting and holding onto the stuff you're trying to collect.

I think it all comes down to "intent." If you buy something with the intent to hold it, you're a collector. Even if you sell it later, whether it's because of waning interest or financial duress, the intent was to buy and hold on to it. If you buy something today because you think you'll be able to sell it for more in the future, then you're just an investor or speculator.

Edited August 29, 2021 by DarkKobold

[inasuma | 1,203]

Hey guys my game with an A+ seal has a hole

Special treatment confirmed?

Edited August 29, 2021 by inasuma

[AdamW | 713]

3 minutes ago, inasuma said:

Hey guys my game with a A+ seal has a hole

Special treatment confirmed?

You are Jim Halperin and I claim my $5!

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

9 minutes ago, inasuma said:

Hey guys my game with a A+ seal has a hole

Special treatment confirmed?

 

Influencer bump confirmed

[OptOut | 8,884]

7 hours ago, Gloves said:

I have a sealed game I intend to keep sealed because it's a special game to me.

Am I a collector?

Bitch, please. I got more than a HUNDRED sealed games! But I didn't buy a SINGLE one thinking about a profit motive, or investment potential.

I collect games as a hobby. If your hobby is collecting MONEY, then it's not my hobby. Simple.

[Gloves | 11,779]

1 minute ago, OptOut said:

Bitch, please. I got more than a HUNDRED sealed games! But I didn't buy a SINGLE one thinking about a profit motive, or investment potential.

I collect games as a hobby. If your hobby is collecting MONEY, then it's not my hobby. Simple.

Yeeaaaahhh I'm just giving ya heck.

[Dumars2001 | 164]

I wonder what the people that cosigned to sell their WATA graded games in Heritage's Weekly/Signature Auctions are thinking right now?! Also for sellers of games in the up-coming Goldin Auctions?

I know that I wouldn't be feeling too confident, if I had games being sold in the next few auctions, but I could be wrong and prices stay high. (or maybe Heritage makes sure that the games sell for a high amount by bidding them up themselves, assuming all the allegations are in fact true)

I can't wait to see where the final sold prices on some of these supposed "grail games" end up at in these big up-coming auctions. It will speak volumes to where the market truly is at for sealed games and just how much manipulation went on behind the scenes.

[OptOut | 8,884]

5 minutes ago, Dumars2001 said:

I wonder what the people that cosigned to sell their WATA graded games in Heritage's Weekly/Signature Auctions are thinking right now?! Also for sellers of games in the up-coming Goldin Auctions?

I know that I wouldn't be feeling too confident, if I had games being sold in the next few auctions, but I could be wrong and prices stay high. (or maybe Heritage makes sure that the games sell for a high amount by bidding them up themselves, assuming all the allegations are in fact true)

I can't wait to see where the final sold prices on some of these supposed "grail games" end up at in these big up-coming auctions. It will speak volumes to where the market truly is at for sealed games and just how much manipulation went on behind the scenes.

I am expecting record breaking prices to continue for another couple years or so, based on where we seem to be on the bubble chart.

There are still plenty of green rubes with cash to throw away to get into the market, and this controversy is nothing more than extra publicity for the market. Those already invested are doubling down, as we have seen, and newbies only see the dollar signs.

It will be like the coin boom and crash, by the seeming of things, it'll go up and up and up and then smack down to earth (I mean still higher than 2019, but not ridiculous like today) and stay that way indefinitely.

[DeuceGamer | 35]

9 hours ago, MinusWorlds said:

I have nothing but love for all of you. Truly. I miss the community that a lot of us built together. 
 

I was very disheartened to see my name dragged into the Wata/HA market manipulation article. 
 

Those of you who know me personally know I always do my best to act with integrity and have built my reputation over 20+ years in this hobby. I hope my contributions speak for themselves. 
 

The only thing I’ll say on the matter is this.  At no time did I try to manipulate the market, never, I wrote an article that Wata published about the state of the sealed and graded video game market. It was my opinion and at no time did Wata try to direct me in any one place. I simply shared my collecting journey and gave an update as to how things have changed and where we are. Now those words are being used against me to try and paint a picture of me being one of the manipulators. It’s sad to be honest with you all. 
 

I dedicated thousands of hours of my life into this hobby. Thousands. I’ve always tried to help others. I created the sealed collecting guide. I did my best to always act with integrity and professionalism and help others with their collecting journeys. I’ve worked with many of you on projects and had the absolute pleasure of calling some of you friends. 
 

Seth tried to sell sales data, and while 100% valuable information, and quite honestly well worth the $5, it wasn’t what he marketed it as, a population report. Historical sales data is just that, a record of past sales, it is nothing like a population report.

 

I confronted him and told him to stop calling it that. For whatever reason he refused and that digressed to me being accused of “bilking” buyers because I sell video games. I said I welcome a true pop report because it will confirm what WE know. In relation to all other collectibles sealed video games are far and away rarer. In turn with the pop reports my games would increase in value, meaning my collection. He took that as me saying I’m making tons of money and labeled me a money grubber. 
 

He continued to peddle his data as a pop report. I again asked him to stop. He blocked me. Then two days ago included me in his article. 

I can’t really explain how disheartened I was, and still am. It seems all the work I’ve done in the hobby was for nothing. I’d like to think I had a part in bringing sealed and graded collecting to where it is today. I’m not talking about the money,  I’m talking about it being recognized as a legitimate collectible hobby. I poured over 2 decades into this. 
 

I just wanted you all to hear this directly from me. Again, I love you all, and hope you all see the truth

It was always for the love of the hobby.  

 

Peace ✌ 

MinusWorlds

 

 

Usually don’t post a lot, and probably doesn’t mean much but just want to say that MinusWorlds recently helped me out and I offered to pay him a little for putting me in touch with someone and he refused any money. He offered some good (and free) advice and was genuinely eager to help someone he didn’t know and really had no reason to help.

We all need to keep in mind that a lot of genuinely good people are involved in this hobby. Anyway, I saw this response and felt I should reply....carry on.

edit: BTW, thanks MinusWorlds!

Edited August 29, 2021 by DeuceGamer