Heritage Auctions Thread

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

3 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I'd like to think with the forum switch, I've tried to be a kinder, gentler arch_8ngel  

I didn't say you were harsh, just incredibly, incessantly meticulous, to the point of being pedantic at times, lol.  You absolutely deserve a gold medal if/when forum argument thoroughness gets recognized by the Olympics. 

[BriGuy82 | 768]

26 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Look man, no one picks an argument with arch_angel and comes out unscathed, might as well admit defeat before you begin

What do you mean by "unscathed"?

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

5 minutes ago, Rhapsody98 said:

TRUE COLLECTORS FILL THEIR HOUSES UP WITH CRAP AND NEVER PART WITH A SINGLE ITEM.  SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE FOLKS IN THE BACK!!

Please note that if I ever raise my LEFT hand to wave at anyone, then she's gone totally unhinged and I need help.  But at present, she has learned to value my "crap," as every time she's in a bind, I seem to miraculously already have the solution on-site, having made the acquisition long ago, when it was "useless junk" at a price far, far below what she'd have to shell out to fix whatever issue today.  So...for now...I survive. 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 minute ago, BriGuy82 said:

What do you mean by "unscathed"?

What do you mean by you?  I mean, if you're not going to be absolutely, 100% clear and factual, your whole question is suspect and false! 

[Rhapsody98 | 1,535]

9 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Please note that if I ever raise my LEFT hand to wave at anyone, then she's gone totally unhinged and I need help.  But at present, she has learned to value my "crap," as every time she's in a bind, I seem to miraculously already have the solution on-site, having made the acquisition long ago, when it was "useless junk" at a price far, far below what she'd have to shell out to fix whatever issue today.  So...for now...I survive. 

It's ok.  One day, I will need everyone's help appraising all of the junk in boxes strewn through the house.  Because I will not be asking the crooks at WATA.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

5 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Last laugh’s on them when they die and it all gets sold to re-sellers/investors via Estate Sales and Storage Wars .

Worse -- eventually a bunch of it just gets thrown in the trash.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Just now, Rhapsody98 said:

It's ok.  One day, I will need everyone's help appraising all of the junk in boxes strewn through the house.  Because I will not be asking the crooks at WATA.

Hey, you need to at least ask if my kids and (hopefully) grandkids want any of it.  The Little People are generational, after all!

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Just now, arch_8ngel said:

Worse -- eventually a bunch of it just gets thrown in the trash.

"WATA?  WTF?  I can't get the damned game out to play it!  Screw this junk!  (chuck)" 

[Rhapsody98 | 1,535]

8 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Worse -- eventually a bunch of it just gets thrown in the trash.

 

Can confirm.  When my dad died, we tossed a three foot square box of 5 1/4 floppies into the dumpster. (I still get flack from it from @darkchylde28, but no one even had a machine to read them anymore!)

[BriGuy82 | 768]

6 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I didn't say you were harsh, just incredibly, incessantly meticulous, to the point of being pedantic at times, lol.  You absolutely deserve a gold medal if/when forum argument thoroughness gets recognized by the Olympics. 

He's definitely a mastur-debator.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

3 minutes ago, Rhapsody98 said:

 

Can confirm.  When my dad died, we tossed a three foot square box of 5 1/4 floppies into the dumpster. (I still get flack from it from @darkchylde28, but no one even had a machine to read them anymore!)

I did, and still do!  If it was PC stuff, meh, but it might have been the Commodore stuff!

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

5 minutes ago, Rhapsody98 said:

 

Can confirm.  When my dad died, we tossed a three foot square box of 5 1/4 floppies into the dumpster. (I still get flack from it from @darkchylde28, but no one even had a machine to read them anymore!)

My parents were diet-hoarders -- basically upper-middle-class large house with enough space to store everything that "never getting rid of anything" was acceptable.

Then, when my dad died a couple years ago, while it was "nice" to be able to round up all of my 80's toys and actually get some decent money for them on eBay -- but man, my dad's habit of hanging onto electronics was a chore to sift through to see if anything was worth dealing with, versus just sending to the recycler or Goodwill.

I still have his nearly-complete original Macintosh (boxes, manuals, accessories, the works) -- that I'm either going to refurbish myself, or at least find a real collector to sell it to.

But a lot of the rest was just "stuff".

 

And then when my mom moved and sold the house -- literally EVERYTHING ELSE that was left just went through an estate seller to clear it out in one pass.

There was just too much stuff in the house to deal with in a timely fashion, and at some point you just rip off the emotional bandaid and move on.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

13 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

What "spin?"  You brought up the idea of you either use a traditional business model, and your business grows only slowly, potentially stagnating, naming VGA in your example, or you pull all the shenanigans that WATA/HA did to artificially inflate the market, and grow-grow-GROW your profit$$$$ through whatever gray, potentially morally ambiguous, shady, unethical, etc., means at your disposal, so long as you don't get arrested.  I mean, I filled in some descriptors that you left out, but based on the discussion everyone's been involved in, those are apt.  So if you don't like the taglines associated with how the vast majority of people feel about how WATA/HA are doing business, maybe don't be part of that bandwagon?

Having advisory boards filled with business partners who use and promote a product for mutual profit IS a traditional business model, particularly during start-up. Investors, in fact, often negotiate to be part of advisory boards when signing on. 

My point is more that grading companies, which offer a subjective service, are stuck in a precarious spot off the bat. Either they go it alone and limit their business, or they partner with others and get skewered somewhere along the line for bias. VGA got it all the time too, particularly on NA, it was just a much smaller scale. PSA had their scandal, CGC is getting it now in comics, etc. It’s a very difficult business to grow without controversy.

Edited August 28, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

12 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

"WATA?  WTF?  I can't get the damned game out to play it!  Screw this junk!  (chuck)" 

As much as some of you guys want to hate on the slabbed stuff - that stuff, at least, is likely to get treated properly in an estate sale.

The trading-card box filled with game manuals, on the other hand.

Or even unslabbed sealed stuff -- I would take better odds than a coin flip that it gets opened while the estate is being inventoried.

 

All that said -- I don't know whether some of you guys have "end goals" for any of your collecting, or not -- but I definitely had it reinforced from a year of dealing with both my dad's estate AND my granddad's estate, that it is WAY WAY WAY more courteous to your family to have a plan to deal with your things WELL BEFORE you die.

Edited August 28, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[Rhapsody98 | 1,535]

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html?sh=1e5684592e07

 

Just dropping this here, the important information being the following;

 

Heritage was itself the subject of a 1997 complaint by New Orleans dealer Blanchard & Co. The dispute stemmed from a $2.5million loan from Heritage, made in 1992, stipulating that Blanchard had to buy two-thirds of its coin inventory from Heritage at prices Heritage claimed were fair market. Blanchard sued Heritage after learning the firm had sold similar coins to other wholesalers at prices far below what Blanchard had paid. An arbitration panel ordered Heritage to pay Blanchard $23 million; Blanchard settled for less. Halperin says the companies continue to do millions of dollars in business a year.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 minute ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Having advisory boards filled with business partners who use and promote a product for mutual profit IS a traditional business model, particularly during start-up. Investors, in fact, often negotiate to be part of advisory boards when signing on. 

My point is more that grading companies, which offer a subjective service, are stuck in a precarious spot off the bat. Either they go it alone and limit their business, or they partner with others and get skewered somewhere along the line on claims of bias. 

We've been over and over this.  Grading houses are supposed to grade things, not speculate as to what value they have, regardless of whether they have an actual idea about that or not.  They are not supposed to provide, speculate on, or assign a value to the product that they're acting as an expert in assessing the condition of.  Jim Halperin got into exactly this sort of trouble with the FTC in the 80s--literally that exact thing.  He was charged, then settled to the tune of $1.2 MILLION DOLLARS, pretty much guaranteeing that he was guilty of the fraud that the FTC was accusing him of.

So, as convenient as it is for everybody with skin in the game to be making absolutely batshit insane money right now, the way that the bubble WATA and HA are doing things pretty well mirrors what went on the 80s, except that HA seems insulated from where the charges would be applied should the FTC get involved and choose to do so.  If all WATA ever said was they believed that there was the potential for substantial value in the highest graded items, that would be a "gray" statement from them, but not them grading something up then declaring what its value should be, as they're not saying what people would, could, or should be paying for it.  Hertiage (via Jim Halperin) was grading things, then telling their market what they were worth, and were burned for it.  WATA hasn't been, yet, but to see the same sort of practice going on at two different times and declaring the currently un-fined one ok, while the other clearly was illegal A-F... 

[AdamW | 713]

You do have to wonder why these people keep making deals with heritage, good lord. If I ever have to shake Halperin's hand, I'm having a certified accountant count my fingers before and after.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

11 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I still have his nearly-complete original Macintosh (boxes, manuals, accessories, the works) -- that I'm either going to refurbish myself, or at least find a real collector to sell it to.

But a lot of the rest was just "stuff".

Before dumping it, talk to me, if you would, as I might be interested, and even if we can't work something out, I have a lot of acquaintances who are into classic Apples who would love to get a shot at an original machine, especially with all the trimmings.

As for his "stuff," yeah, I get that, and I don't blame you for going through and discarding it.  However, to your dad (and possibly to your mom), a lot of it was probably memories.  Sure, it's not necessarily the most rational thing to keep something around just because it brings something fond or important back to your mind, but humans aren't rational creatures, and that's what we often do.  Nobody should have to hang onto a loved one's stuff that they don't want or understand, but at least try to understand why that "junk" was likely still hanging around.

5 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

As much as some of you guys want to hate on the slabbed stuff - that stuff, at least, is likely to get treated properly in an estate sale.

The trading-card box filled with game manuals, on the other hand.

Or even unslabbed sealed stuff -- I would take better odds than a coin flip that it gets opened while the estate is being inventoried.

I don't know, I think it depends on who's handling the estate sale--family or a company dedicated to that type of thing.  Remember, more than a few copies of SE, boxed and not, were claimed to have been picked off of shelves at estate sales on the old NA boards, usually for a couple of bucks because nobody knew what it was.  Even if something is in a case, that will make the difference from $5 video game to "fancy cased $10 video game" to a grieving family who DGAF.

[AdamW | 713]

22 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

We've been over and over this.  Grading houses are supposed to grade things, not speculate as to what value they have, regardless of whether they have an actual idea about that or not.  They are not supposed to provide, speculate on, or assign a value to the product that they're acting as an expert in assessing the condition of.  Jim Halperin got into exactly this sort of trouble with the FTC in the 80s--literally that exact thing.  He was charged, then settled to the tune of $1.2 MILLION DOLLARS, pretty much guaranteeing that he was guilty of the fraud that the FTC was accusing him of.

This is an idea you've decided on for yourself, though. It's not some kind of actual law or universally-agreed-upon standard. The offence in the coin case you refer to was (AIUI) willfully not grading coins in line with the standards they claimed to be using, it wasn't about providing valuations.

Edit: to be specific, here's the Forbes description of the case: "He was dead center of his next misadventure after launching a coin grading agency, Numismatic Certification Institute, in 1984. It, too, went out of business, after the FTC found that Halperin was giving inflated grades to coins and marketing them through a Heritage-backed outfit called Certified Rare Coin Galleries. Using television ads to draw in victims, they sold high-grade silver and gold U.S. coins for more than twice what they would have fetched in more-reputable retail channels. Heritage agreed in 1989 to pay $1.2 million in restitution."

AFAICT, WATA has never stated anywhere that they won't value things.

It's fine for you or I to have a personal opinion on whether Deniz hyping up the market affects how credible we find the agency he runs. But to me there's a big difference between doing that and stating, like it's some sort of law of nature, that grading agencies Aren't Supposed To Do That.

Edited August 28, 2021 by AdamW
included Forbes description of halperin coin case

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

7 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

 

So, as convenient as it is for everybody with skin in the game to be making absolutely batshit insane money right now, the way that the bubble WATA and HA are doing things pretty well mirrors what went on the 80s, except that HA seems insulated from where the charges would be applied should the FTC get involved and choose to do so.  If all WATA ever said was they believed that there was the potential for substantial value in the highest graded items, that would be a "gray" statement from them, but not them grading something up then declaring what its value should be, as they're not saying what people would, could, or should be paying for it.  Hertiage (via Jim Halperin) was grading things, then telling their market what they were worth, and were burned for it.  WATA hasn't been, yet, but to see the same sort of practice going on at two different times and declaring the currently un-fined one ok, while the other clearly was illegal A-F... 

PSA and CGC also charge based on valuation, I believe. I see both sides to the argument here, though again WATA would have a better argument for the model if they released a pop report imo.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 minute ago, darkchylde28 said:

Before dumping it, talk to me, if you would, as I might be interested, and even if we can't work something out, I have a lot of acquaintances who are into classic Apples who would love to get a shot at an original machine, especially with all the trimmings.

As for his "stuff," yeah, I get that, and I don't blame you for going through and discarding it.  However, to your dad (and possibly to your mom), a lot of it was probably memories.  Sure, it's not necessarily the most rational thing to keep something around just because it brings something fond or important back to your mind, but humans aren't rational creatures, and that's what we often do.  Nobody should have to hang onto a loved one's stuff that they don't want or understand, but at least try to understand why that "junk" was likely still hanging around.

I don't know, I think it depends on who's handling the estate sale--family or a company dedicated to that type of thing.  Remember, more than a few copies of SE, boxed and not, were claimed to have been picked off of shelves at estate sales on the old NA boards, usually for a couple of bucks because nobody knew what it was.  Even if something is in a case, that will make the difference from $5 video game to "fancy cased $10 video game" to a grieving family who DGAF.

I disagree with the part in bold. Something with a clearly "special" treatment is going to warrant more due diligence than something not - though people talking with their families about this stuff in the first place goes a long way to making sure it gets sold properly.  (but seriously -- EVERYONE reading this -- have a clear plan to save your family and your estate the hassle, and work to sell your stuff strategically at some point -- the money is way easier to pass through the estate in a fair an sensible way, and dealing with selling your stuff is truly a burden, not a blessing, to whoever you leave behind)

 

Regarding the memories and "junk" / accumulation -- Marie Kondo was onto something with her idea of hold the thing in your hands, thank it for its service, and let it go.  (but no, in my family's case, most of my dad's "stuff" was not "memory" related -- it was really just accumulated stuff, that since he had plenty of space to store it, never felt any need to proactively dispose of it)

 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

13 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Before dumping it, talk to me, if you would, as I might be interested, and even if we can't work something out, I have a lot of acquaintances who are into classic Apples who would love to get a shot at an original machine, especially with all the trimmings.

As far as I know, it is "everything" except for the drawing-pad/digitizer and a HDD (since those cost as much as the computer back then) -- (i.e. mac, secondary external floppy, impact printer, and external modem)

The issue is that there is no sensible way to ship it without going freight - so I'm going to have to look for regional buyers.

The floppy drives need to be refurbed - and I never did get around to picking up one of those CF-readers - so they'll need to fix one of the drives, or get a CF-reader to get it up and running.

But I'm happy to take offers from interested parties on the whole setup.

Edited August 28, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

I disagree with the part in bold. Something with a clearly "special" treatment is going to warrant more due diligence than something not - though people talking with their families about this stuff in the first place goes a long way to making sure it gets sold properly.  (but seriously -- EVERYONE reading this -- have a clear plan to save your family and your estate the hassle, and work to sell your stuff strategically at some point -- the money is way easier to pass through the estate in a fair an sensible way, and dealing with selling your stuff is truly a burden, not a blessing, to whoever you leave behind)

Regarding the memories and "junk" / accumulation -- Marie Kondo was onto something with her idea of hold the thing in your hands, thank it for its service, and let it go.  (but no, in my family's case, most of my dad's "stuff" was not "memory" related -- it was really just accumulated stuff, that since he had plenty of space to store it, never felt any need to proactively dispose of it)

Well, like I said, it depends on who is running the state sale, and that the distinction is minimal to a grieving family who doesn't give a fuck.  I know, I speak from experience, based on the massive amount of my parents' stuff we literally threw out of windows into a massive dumpster in the driveway in order to clear out the house enough so that a care worker would declare their house "safe" so my mom could come home from the hospital.  In a lot of cases, especially those handled by companies who run estate sales, yeah, you're exactly right, more care will be taken.  But for families running things, especially grieving ones, it's frequently just "yard sale" time, where they're trying to just get rid of things and not overly concerned over what things are or what they're being sold for, unless they specifically, immediately recognize and understand what it is (ie: cash, jewelry, a car, etc.).

Absolutely, if you want to make sure stuff goes for top dollar, or to specific people, make a list beforehand, write (and certify with a lawyer!) a will, and brief your loved ones on the bare minimum of what you need to in order for them to follow your wishes afterward.  And don't piss off anybody that's going to be in charge of that if you expect your wishes to be followed, lol.

I thought the thing with Marie Kondo was first "hold it in your hands, and if it doesn't bring you joy, let it go."  So if something, even something random, still brings you that joy, per her original slogan, you should hang onto it.  Then, she got really popular, and it basically became, "Oh, well, you should really get rid of everything save just enough to lightly fill the shelves of a model home, and here's the mental exercises you can try to do to get over getting rid of everything else" (paraphrased with my own interpretation on top, of course).  So if you're literally just hoarding stuff for no reason, sure, her method could work wonders.  But if she were to come into my home and pick up some random movie stubs that I've held onto and tell me to get rid of them, I'd show her the door, as holding them and looking at the date reminds me of who I was with (most likely my wife), what was going on in our lives at that time, how much fun we had, etc.  Meaningless to pretty much anybody else (usually my wife included), but absolutely special to me.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

4 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

As far as I know, it is "everything" except for the drawing-pad/digitizer and a HDD (since those cost as much as the computer back then) -- (i.e. mac, secondary external floppy, impact printer, and external modem)

The issue is that there is no sensible way to ship it without going freight - so I'm going to have to look for regional buyers.

The floppy drives need to be refurbed - and I never did get around to picking up one of those CF-readers - so they'll need to fix one of the drives, or get a CF-reader to get it up and running.

But I'm happy to take offers from interested parties on the whole setup.

Well, if IIRC, you're basically a 5-6 hour drive from where I am (give or take an hour or two), so to me, that'd be worth it.  As far as other folks I know who are into the classic computer hobby, they're absolute pros at using freight companies to ship stuff, advising on how stuff should be packed, and more than willing to pay top dollar to have it done right so stuff survives, so if you want/need to have that discussion at some point, just hit me up with a PM and I can connect you to folks who will make sure your dad's system continues on.

[GPX | 1,369]

2 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

PSA and CGC also charge based on valuation, I believe. I see both sides to the argument here, though again WATA would have a better argument for the model if they released a pop report imo.

That’s the main argument regarding “hyping versus manipulation”. If without showing pop reports on a grading service AND then going on to valuate several high end pieces, that is BLATANT market manipulation. 

The issue then becomes “is it unethical versus fraud?” The answer probably lies on how much of a collusion there is between WATA, HA, involved buyers and resellers. Mainly on whether there are fake bids along the way, or fake numbers of values discussed publicly as if they were real. This is the part where it’s hard to prove unless you are an actual detective/police. 

Following on from previous point, this is why none of us can point out illegal shenanigans with facts, unless we know all the ins and outs of WATA/HA’s  dealings. Most of us can only postulate.