Heritage Auctions Thread

[Hammerfestus | 3,846]

17 minutes ago, karljobst said:

My original responses contained a lot of annoyance because I didn't come here to argue with people about my interpretation of a 1989 FTC ruling. I came here to answer questions and learn things from the people here that would help me in the future. Apologies for that.

Just letting you know I'm going to be doing a follow up video in September and all of the known inaccuracies (including this) will be corrected. 

You came to a place where the users compulsively fill their basements with thousands of games and you didn’t expect to get in an argument about FTC rulings?  Well, I don’t think you thought that through very much then

Edited August 28, 2021 by Hammerfestus

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

25 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Let's bring it back to the primary topic - by your comparison are you suggesting that Wata / HA's conflicts of interest are/were not clearly problematic?

 

 

Here’s the thing, this is literally what the world of collectibles is, due to the subjective nature of grading. Either you become VGA and business is capped, or you partner with auction houses and/or dealers to promote business and it flourishes. The line between “conflict of interest” and “aligned interests” is thin and gray.

Let’s look at the current outlay of collectibles. Major companies are coming in and buying up both grading companies AND auction houses. CU, which just bought WATA and PSA earlier this year, also bought control of Goldin Auctions. It’s been kind of bizarre to see this reaction to information that is largely public and 2-3 years old when nobody seems to bat an eye at other stuff. It’s largely something people who participate in the market know about and accept, because there’s really no easy way to do it. I think the main difference with games and, say, sports cards is that you can’t, like, play sports cards, so there’s not much division within the community. The whole idea of sports cards was to get the rare and high value stuff in packs, even as kids. Games are obviously different and there is much more resentment.

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

8 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

 

The obvious assumption is that they meant legitimize high-end sealed items as investment-grade collectibles. 

 

If that’s the case then it’s solely about money. 

[AdamW | 713]

1 hour ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

You’re making a comparison and I’ve pointed out that it’s not really comparable. I’ve provided a more comparable example and you made a vague comment in response. I’m asking for you to prove your response. It’s apparent to me that you cannot support your position and the discussion is over. I’ll move on.

I mean, you're the one who brought Moody's into it, and then for some reason started demanding I prove things about Moody's that I never claimed. I never said word one about Moody's.

But I played along with your angle anyway, and made the specific (not vague) point that other security rating agencies do value the securities they rate. Let's make it even more specific. BMO Capital Markets is a security rating agency. They provide specific price targets, and specific recommendations on whether you should or should not buy, the securities they rate. Here's a list:

https://www.pricetargets.com/brokerages/bmo-capital-markets-stock-recommendations

edit: oh, and to round out the comparison - BMO almost certainly owns many of the securities which it rates and provides specific price targets for. I haven't managed to find a list of the exact securities it owns, I'm not sure it's required to disclose that, but its annual statement for 2020 discloses that it holds as assets somewhere over $234bn in securities. It would be virtually impossible to own $234bn in securities without owning any of the ones it rates.

Edited August 28, 2021 by AdamW
corrected "credit rating agency" to "security rating agency"

[Boss | 16]

17 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

You came to a place where the users compulsively fill their basements with thousands of games and you didn’t expect to get in an argument about FTC rulings?  Well, I don’t think you thought that through very much then

You leave my man cave basement out of this!

[OptOut | 8,884]

10 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

If that’s the case then it’s solely about money. 

Yep, absolutely, a hundo percent!!!

That's what I've been saying this WHOLE time, and it's my only real beef with the whole sealed/graded phenomenon:

DON'T call it COLLECTING!!! It's investing, speculating, gambling, whatever, but don't tell me all these millionaire dentists and fractional share companies and comic book and sports cards bros and hype sniffing bandwagon fuckers are videogame COLLECTORS!!!

They are pumpers, they are dumpers, they are speculators, they are gamblers, they are ignorant and they are blind, but WHATEVER it is they are doing buying these games...

It...

is...

**DEEP BREATHS**

 

NOT MY HOBBY!!!

[Ozzy_98 | 55]

I'm kinda of wondering where everyone stands now.

I have no issues with Dain or Bronty on the events here, and I don't think we should ever be pointing fingers as members unless it's something really bad. 

Right now, I view Wata as a whole as kind of not the most up-and-up company, but not the most sleazy of companies. Prefer VGA though. Sounds like they were using Dain's name a bit longer than they should, and doing questionable practices. And were just media whores, but that's how you get business. I'm waiting for twitter to find out how they got their name. 

Heritage Auctions is a bit more sleezy than Wata. I think I would trust game gavel pre-buyout a bit more than them. 

James Halperin just sucks. I wouldn't trust anything with his name related to it. 

I'm in the boat that these actions aren't the only driving force to the prices, but they sure made a quick jump. Seems like every company is trying to squeeze a quick buck (Investment companies buying houses left and right in some areas for example) this just seems to related to it. 

[Gloves | 11,778]

2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Yep, absolutely, a hundo percent!!!

That's what I've been saying this WHOLE time, and it's my only real beef with the whole sealed/graded phenomenon:

DON'T call it COLLECTING!!! It's investing, speculating, gambling, whatever, but don't tell me all these millionaire dentists and fractional share companies and comic book and sports cards bros and hype sniffing bandwagon fuckers are videogame COLLECTORS!!!

They are pumpers, they are dumpers, they are speculators, they are gamblers, they are ignorant and they are blind, but WHATEVER it is they are doing buying these games...

It...

is...

**DEEP BREATHS**

 

NOT MY HOBBY!!!

I have a sealed game I intend to keep sealed because it's a special game to me.

Am I a collector?

[AdamW | 713]

2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

They are pumpers, they are dumpers, they are speculators, they are gamblers, they are ignorant and they are blind, but WHATEVER it is they are doing buying these games...

I mean, any of them who bought in a year or two back and sold this year sure aren't ignorant or blind, by the looks of it

[Ozzy_98 | 55]

Just now, OptOut said:

That's what I've been saying this WHOLE time, and it's my only real beef with the whole sealed/graded phenomenon:

DON'T call it COLLECTING!!! It's investing, speculating, gambling,

To me, depends on how you do it. I've been collecting for years. But I'm not even been half assing it. For example, I never hit up yard sales early in the morning, that's work, and I don't do hobbies for work. But I like video game history, not just the mainstream ones, but the crud like Gameates are cool to me. So I collect odd ball stuff with no demand and I'm just as happy with some cheap odd ball game from Japan as most people are with rare expensive nes carts. And I'm a hoarder. Once I get a game, I almost never bother looking for a better quality replacement; it's now my game. Only time I sell games is if I accidently buy duplicates that aren't variants. 

Some people collect games and the thrill of the hunt for games in the wild is what drives them. Cause they live in areas with better yard sales and thrift stores than me  Hell, I can't even find old tools or cast iron pans at yard sales anymore. 

Others like collecting almost like a strategy game, they use money from some games sales to fund more expensive games. Trade baits and the like are things they like. Completely different style of collecting than my style of "Oh hey that's cheap\never saw that before".

Some take that last one to high ends where it is involving large sums of money. That often involves risk. I dislike risk. ALE = ARO x SLE is something beat into my skull too hard, if anyone knows the reference. But it's still game collecting to me, since most of these people know a ton about the games they collect.

Then others take the high end and move it up an order of magnitude or two. Sure, you're collecting games, but most (not all) of these people are doing it for money, not the history of the items. But it's people knowing the history of the items that causes the prices to vary a ton. I'm expecting prices of the very high end to be a roller coaster for a while, then stabilize higher than most of us would like. But I also thought covid would cause a glut in prices like the last recession, so meh.  

 

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

31 minutes ago, AdamW said:

I mean, you're the one who brought Moody's into it, and then for some reason started demanding I prove things about Moody's that I never claimed. I never said word one about Moody's.

But I played along with your angle anyway, and made the specific (not vague) point that other credit rating agencies do value the securities they rate. Let's make it even more specific. BMO Capital Markets is a security rating agency. They provide specific price targets, and specific recommendations on whether you should or should not buy, the securities they rate. Here's a list:

https://www.pricetargets.com/brokerages/bmo-capital-markets-stock-recommendations

edit: oh, and to round out the comparison - BMO almost certainly owns many of the securities which it rates and provides specific price targets for. I haven't managed to find a list of the exact securities it owns, I'm not sure it's required to disclose that, but its annual statement for 2020 discloses that it holds as assets somewhere over $234bn in securities. It would be virtually impossible to own $234bn in securities without owning any of the ones it rates.

The point is that price targets are not held to a similar objective and independent standard as grading a collectible. A bond rating would be a more apt comparison of a similar business with similar expectations of objectivity in their ratings. Therefore, talking about companies whose job is to price stocks and recommend them to a company’s whose job is to objectively evaluate a product (collectibles or even bonds) based on facts alone and with independence is practically useless to this discussion.

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

29 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I have a sealed game I intend to keep sealed because it's a special game to me.

Am I a collector?

Me too, although I seriously considered selling it when prices started going bonkers, as I don't think one has been WATA'd yet.

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

1 hour ago, karljobst said:

My original responses contained a lot of annoyance because I didn't come here to argue with people about my interpretation of a 1989 FTC ruling. I came here to answer questions and learn things from the people here that would help me in the future. Apologies for that.

Just letting you know I'm going to be doing a follow up video in September and all of the known inaccuracies (including this) will be corrected. 

You mean you didn't sign up just to wade through 40+ pages of inside jokes and arguments from staff members about a defunct web page? 

Seriously though, good on you for doing some additional research on this whole thing.

[AdamW | 713]

17 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

The point is that price targets are not held to a similar objective and independent standard as grading a collectible. A bond rating would be a more apt comparison of a similar business with similar expectations of objectivity in their ratings. Therefore, talking about companies whose job is to price stocks and recommend them to a company’s whose job is to objectively evaluate a product (collectibles or even bonds) based on facts alone and with independence is practically useless to this discussion.

well, except that a point people often make about game grading (from a negative perspective) is that it is ultimately subjective.

Anyhow, I'm done having you jump me through eternally shrinking hoops. I never claimed I was providing a precise comparison, but you've successfully provoked me into finding one which is much more exact than I ever intended, so, thanks? I am entirely comfortable suggesting that a security rating agency is a pretty good comparison for a game grading agency. You are of course free to disagree, and anyone else can decide what they think for themselves.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

In what way did wata or any of the sealed hype legitimize the hobby? I really don’t understand that argument. It’s always been legitimate. It’s brought joy and community to those that desire to collect. Isn’t that legitimate enough? What are the requirements to legitimize? Bringing in outside money hungry speculators? Having news articles talk about sealed prices? I really don’t get the legitimize argument.

By legitimizing it to people with deep, deep pockets looking to dump a lot of money into something for quick, stratospheric investment gains.  First the first bolded part, then the second to prop up the first one even more.  They're not legitimizing the hobby with anyone, they got into it purely for the money, which is why their advertising flyer that got shared by SpacePup on page 100 calls all of this "the industrty," when, in fact, it's up to that point been 95% guys actually collecting things that they like and want to hold onto.

56 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

The obvious assumption is that they meant legitimize high-end sealed items as investment-grade collectibles.

Bingo.  Deep pockets, big bucks, good for everybody except the legitimate hobbyists.  Sure, there are people who argue that they're collectors and have maintained a collection through all of this while participating in the free-for-all pump and dump that's currently still going on, but they're being disingenuous or willfully ignorant about what they're really doing, as pumping prices up to the stratosphere is not good for anyone's collection/collecting.  They might end up with more money to sling around, but really, they've just pumped up inflation on their own hobby, making what extra cash they've landed not go nearly as far as it would have before all the shenanigans.  There are a few who say they're still collectors and made some absolutely crazy money in this that might still do all right due to the difference between the lower tier stuff and cash gained through record breaking sales, but everybody else is just fooling themselves if they think their investment speculation will do them any favors as far as their collecting is concerned.

48 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Here’s the thing, this is literally what the world of collectibles is, due to the subjective nature of grading. Either you become VGA and business is capped, or you partner with auction houses and/or dealers to promote business and it flourishes. The line between “conflict of interest” and “aligned interests” is thin and gray.

So, you either "go with the flow" and shift your inventory and promotional interests as public interest and demand changes over time, as comic, toy, and hobby shops have done for decades, or, you know, you collude to create unsupported, inflationary "value" in your chosen target, pump that bitch up as high as you can, then sell out to make a killing before it pops and you screw over everybody else who wasn't as cut throat or unethically savvy to get out in time.  And you support option B in that scenario.  Gotcha.  Thanks for making that absolutely crystal clear.

27 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Yep, absolutely, a hundo percent!!!

That's what I've been saying this WHOLE time, and it's my only real beef with the whole sealed/graded phenomenon:

DON'T call it COLLECTING!!! It's investing, speculating, gambling, whatever, but don't tell me all these millionaire dentists and fractional share companies and comic book and sports cards bros and hype sniffing bandwagon fuckers are videogame COLLECTORS!!!

They are pumpers, they are dumpers, they are speculators, they are gamblers, they are ignorant and they are blind, but WHATEVER it is they are doing buying these games...

It...

is...

**DEEP BREATHS**

 

NOT MY HOBBY!!!

25 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I have a sealed game I intend to keep sealed because it's a special game to me.

Am I a collector?

Yes.  It's when you're "in the sealed collector game" but all you really do is buy up the stuff, sit on it briefly, then dump it when the price gets ridiculous, as it's clear those folks never really intended to collect at all.  And really, there's ultimately nothing wrong with that in and of itself (so long as those folks aren't the ones deliberately, artificially rallying all the investor types as has been discussed to death), but seriously, they shouldn't be calling themselves collectors at that point.  The moment you sell out, at best you're an enthusiast, at least to the point where you start collecting and holding onto the stuff you're trying to collect.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, AdamW said:

I already gave my opinion on that, so you can go back and read it. I'm not interested in going round the same circle again. Today I posted an illustration of a different point that I made in passing before.

 

Look man, no one picks an argument with arch_angel and comes out unscathed, might as well admit defeat before you begin

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

2 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

By legitimizing it to people with deep, deep pockets looking to dump a lot of money into something for quick, stratospheric investment gains.  First the first bolded part, then the second to prop up the first one even more.  They're not legitimizing the hobby with anyone, they got into it purely for the money, which is why their advertising flyer that got shared by SpacePup on page 100 calls all of this "the industrty," when, in fact, it's up to that point been 95% guys actually collecting things that they like and want to hold onto.

Bingo.  Deep pockets, big bucks, good for everybody except the legitimate hobbyists.  Sure, there are people who argue that they're collectors and have maintained a collection through all of this while participating in the free-for-all pump and dump that's currently still going on, but they're being disingenuous or willfully ignorant about what they're really doing, as pumping prices up to the stratosphere is not good for anyone's collection/collecting.  They might end up with more money to sling around, but really, they've just pumped up inflation on their own hobby, making what extra cash they've landed not go nearly as far as it would have before all the shenanigans.  There are a few who say they're still collectors and made some absolutely crazy money in this that might still do all right due to the difference between the lower tier stuff and cash gained through record breaking sales, but everybody else is just fooling themselves if they think their investment speculation will do them any favors as far as their collecting is concerned.

So, you either "go with the flow" and shift your inventory and promotional interests as public interest and demand changes over time, as comic, toy, and hobby shops have done for decades, or, you know, you collude to create unsupported, inflationary "value" in your chosen target, pump that bitch up as high as you can, then sell out to make a killing before it pops and you screw over everybody else who wasn't as cut throat or unethically savvy to get out in time.  And you support option B in that scenario.  Gotcha.  Thanks for making that absolutely crystal clear.

Yes.  It's when you're "in the sealed collector game" but all you really do is buy up the stuff, sit on it briefly, then dump it when the price gets ridiculous, as it's clear those folks never really intended to collect at all.  And really, there's ultimately nothing wrong with that in and of itself (so long as those folks aren't the ones deliberately, artificially rallying all the investor types as has been discussed to death), but seriously, they shouldn't be calling themselves collectors at that point.  The moment you sell out, at best you're an enthusiast, at least to the point where you start collecting and holding onto the stuff you're trying to collect.

I agree with all of this and you put it all in very clear terms. Very well said. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

47 minutes ago, AdamW said:

I mean, any of them who bought in a year or two back and sold this year sure aren't ignorant or blind, by the looks of it

Since when did intelligence or ability to see have anything to do with money? 

Lol, quite the lot of dumb f'cks

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Look man, no one picks an argument with arch_angel and comes out unscathed, might as well admit defeat before you begin

#TRUTH

That dude has more dedication to picking nits than ever I did as an angry, frustrated 15 year old calling BBSs constantly to fill all my free time arguing (until I got a girlfriend and BBSs were killed by the internet).

Edited August 28, 2021 by darkchylde28

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

10 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Look man, no one picks an argument with arch_angel and comes out unscathed, might as well admit defeat before you begin

No joke, he’s one of the most thorough minds I’ve seen on a myriad of subjects.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

26 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

 

So, you either "go with the flow" and shift your inventory and promotional interests as public interest and demand changes over time, as comic, toy, and hobby shops have done for decades, or, you know, you collude to create unsupported, inflationary "value" in your chosen target, pump that bitch up as high as you can, then sell out to make a killing before it pops and you screw over everybody else who wasn't as cut throat or unethically savvy to get out in time.  And you support option B in that scenario.  Gotcha.  Thanks for making that absolutely crystal clear.

Well…you certainly certainly decided to put your spin on that one lol. As I said, I support there being a pop report, I think it’s the single biggest problem in the market. First year or two, I get not putting one out, but a lot of the concerns people have are satisfied when the data is released. With pop reports, a lot of what you’ve said isn’t even really possible. 
 

As for collector vs investor, I mean investing is largely what graded collectibles is across the board. Hell, it’s the case often with raw games, too. People can also be both, but I doubt you’d accept something like that. Seems like a pretty black/white and good/evil thing to you. That’s fine, to each their own.

Edited August 28, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

15 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

#TRUTH

That dude has more dedication to picking nits than ever I did as an angry, frustrated 15 year old calling BBSs constantly to fill all my free time arguing (until I got a girlfriend and BBSs were killed by the internet).

I'd like to think with the forum switch, I've tried to be a kinder, gentler arch_8ngel  

[Rhapsody98 | 1,535]

1 hour ago, OptOut said:

Yep, absolutely, a hundo percent!!!

That's what I've been saying this WHOLE time, and it's my only real beef with the whole sealed/graded phenomenon:

DON'T call it COLLECTING!!! It's investing, speculating, gambling, whatever, but don't tell me all these millionaire dentists and fractional share companies and comic book and sports cards bros and hype sniffing bandwagon fuckers are videogame COLLECTORS!!!

They are pumpers, they are dumpers, they are speculators, they are gamblers, they are ignorant and they are blind, but WHATEVER it is they are doing buying these games...

It...

is...

**DEEP BREATHS**

 

NOT MY HOBBY!!!

TRUE COLLECTORS FILL THEIR HOUSES UP WITH CRAP AND NEVER PART WITH A SINGLE ITEM.  SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE FOLKS IN THE BACK!!

 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

3 minutes ago, Rhapsody98 said:

TRUE COLLECTORS FILL THEIR HOUSES UP WITH CRAP AND NEVER PART WITH A SINGLE ITEM.  SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE FOLKS IN THE BACK!!

 

Last laugh’s on them when they die and it all gets sold to re-sellers/investors via Estate Sales and Storage Wars .

Edited August 28, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

3 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Well…you certainly certainly decided to put your spin on that one lol. As I said, I support there being a pop report, I think it’s the single biggest problem in the market. First year or two, I get not putting one out, but a lot of the concerns people have are satisfied when the data is released. With pop reports, a lot of what you’ve said isn’t even really possible. 

What "spin?"  You brought up the idea of you either use a traditional business model, and your business grows only slowly, potentially stagnating, naming VGA in your example, or you pull all the shenanigans that WATA/HA did to artificially inflate the market, and grow-grow-GROW your profit$$$$ through whatever gray, potentially morally ambiguous, shady, unethical, etc., means at your disposal, so long as you don't get arrested.  I mean, I filled in some descriptors that you left out, but based on the discussion everyone's been involved in, those are apt.  So if you don't like the taglines associated with how the vast majority of people feel about how WATA/HA are doing business, maybe don't be part of that bandwagon?