Conceding to Game Terminology

[JamesRobot | 5,841]

@CasualCart just opens up a can a worms, sits back, and watches it all unfold.  

 

[T-Pac | 7,601]

Seeing all the aversion to saying "shmup" here on VGS is making me reconsider my stance again.

I almost want to try pitching an alternative term, but I doubt I could garner a positive consensus or get it to catch-on in any meaningful way. I just don't  like any of the commonly-used expressions:

"Shmup" sounds goofy.

"Shoot-em-up" and "Shooter" aren't quite as inoffensive to fresh ears today as they were in the 80s and 90s (and the latter is often applied more broadly to FPS games).

"Space Shooter" is a bit more innocuous, but it doesn't work for games without a space-theme.

"STG" sounds way too close to a different, much more unsavory initialism when spoken aloud. 

This might need it's own thread...

-CasualCart

[phart010 | 1,708]

If you type Shmup it autocorrects to shoo trump. So that must be what it is

 

[RH | 4,984]

You could call it a “Space Shooter”, as opposed to a run-and-gun which I could see someone may mistake as a type of “shooter”, but the problem is that “space” doesn’t cover games like the 194x or Raiden serieses that aren’t in space. Aeroshooters might work.  

Edited January 21, 2023 by RH

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,019]

16 minutes ago, phart010 said:

If you type Shmup it autocorrects to shoo trump. So that must be what it is

 

Gotta use that Gboard, it auto corrects it to all caps for me. 

[Tanooki | 4,954]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:57 AM, CasualCart said:

I’ve always avoided the word “shmup” because I thought it sounded goofy, but I’m ready to concede to the term.

The only one I've conceded to yet strongly dislike is metroidvania, but I'll use it because SOTN has so many fanboys/girls to it to the point if you just say the game is like Super Metroid, unless they're Nintendo fans they're like...wuh?

 

I have a longer list of ones I won't bend to.

I refuse to concede to that (quoted above), it sucks, looks stupid, sounds equally stupid.  I've always called them shooters/space shooters/shoot em up(even this) depending.  FPS still is a first person shooter, clear which I'd be describing.

Also included are the dullards who can't properly say NES and SNES right.  Nintendo even in the day would either say each letter, say it with abbreviated S (SNES or NES), or they with the 16bit say Super NES.  There was no cartoon snake pronunciation, and that utterly idiotic word murder with it ending with a Z sound is just god awful.

[CMR | 522]

I refuse to call "run 'n' guns" "shoot'em ups", or "beat'em ups" "beat'em all", or Jaguar "jag-you-are".

[Hammerfestus | 3,892]

6 hours ago, Splain said:

"Metroidvania" is always used ironically. Nobody in the world has ever said that word without thinking about how dumb it is.

Roguelike? That's where "Roguelite" came from. 

Let's call FPS's "Doomlikes."

I also love "arcade" as a genre. It can be any kind of game at all, but if it's a classic arcade game, it's "arcade" genre.

Aren’t arcade games games that are played for points? 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

13 hours ago, phart010 said:

Clarification: How would you have preferred to abbreviate it back then?

 

13 hours ago, a3quit4s said:

 

 

PS?

 

7 hours ago, TDIRunner said:

PS

 

i know @JamesRobot is with this as well it’s the “playstation”

Edited January 22, 2023 by docile tapeworm

[wongojack | 228]

5 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

Aren’t arcade games games that are played for points? 

That is definitely not my definition of the word.  Is "King's Quest" an arcade game?

Edited January 22, 2023 by wongojack

[Hammerfestus | 3,892]

35 minutes ago, wongojack said:

That is definitely not my definition of the word.  Is "King's Quest" and arcade game?

Yes?  Is that an RPG?  I don’t know.  Realistically I guess they could be anything that was released as an arcade cabinet. 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

26 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Yes?  Is that an RPG?  I don’t know.  Realistically I guess they could be anything that was released as an arcade cabinet. 

It's an old school adventure game, but you get points based on different actions you take, with only a certain set of actions guaranteeing you all the points when you win.  There are even a couple of scenarios where you could get more than the max points in those games, but it was only in a couple, as I recall.

[wongojack | 228]

My opinion on "arcade" is that it is not a genre.  It described a release platform that was once quite uniform but has since diverged a lot.  Even when most arcade games looked the same, what was under the hood could be totally different.

Anyway, I think it is most commonly used now to describe a game or game mode that relies mostly on repeating similar scenarios to improve or achieve a higher score.  However, there are definitely games that have a score that just don't fit.

Edited January 22, 2023 by wongojack

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

I've never understood the term Metroidvania.  That means a game is Metroid-like and involves backtracking and retracing your steps to gain items and unlock new areas.  What on earth does that have to do with Castlevania?  Someone give me a history lesson here...  Since SOTN is Metroid-like, and everyone loves that game, did they just mash the two together, giving SOTN half the credit for something that it 100% ripped off from the Metroid series?  That's my guess...

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I've never understood the term Metroidvania.  That means a game is Metroid-like and involves backtracking and retracing your steps to gain items and unlock new areas.  What on earth does that have to do with Castlevania?  Someone give me a history lesson here...  Since SOTN is Metroid-like, and everyone loves that game, did they just mash the two together, giving SOTN half the credit for something that it 100% ripped off from the Metroid series?  That's my guess...

They absolutely did that when the term was coined and SOTN was the only Castlevania game like that, but I believe more games have come out that are like that, and thus it became a self-fulfilling prophecy regarding a term that was initially wholly inaccurate but still sounds foolish.

[DarkTone | 988]

I never say shmup out loud, and I cant remember if I ever type it. But for some reason, I have zero problem with others saying it. 

[Sumez | 2,995]

12 hours ago, CasualCart said:

I almost want to try pitching an alternative term, but I doubt I could garner a positive consensus or get it to catch-on in any meaningful way. I just don't  like any of the commonly-used expressions:

Pretty much anyone into the genre has long since conceded to STG as an alternative, so there is really no need for any other alternatives. Shmup still gets thrown around a lot though. Like anything else, if you use a term often enough, and it's too long to spell out comfortably (shoot-em-up), it will 100% get shortened, so there is no way around that.

[Sumez | 2,995]

"Arcade" as a genre is, like many other genre terms, not really all-encompassing. A shoot'em up, a platformer, a beat'em up and a puzzle game can be an arcade game, but they can also have qualities that makes them less traditionally "arcade".

In general anything that concedes to the environment of a classic coin operated arcade can be described as "arcade", but what's most relevant is of course how those restrictions, as well as the business model, informs core aspects of game design.
I don't think playing for points is in any way required for something to feel "arcade", but it can definitely play a role.

Some general tendencies that I think most people could agree informs the idea of "arcade", even if there will always be some arcade games that make out the odd exception:

• You never want the player to spend too long doing anything, this includes any sort of decision making or rote repetition. Of course, that means there's a timer on everything, but mostly you just want the game to have a brisk pace that constantly pushed the player forward.
• The game is challenging and trying to make the player lose. You need skill and practice to overcome the game, not just persistence.
• You can play through the game in a single sitting, ideally less than an hour. Of course some (especially older) arcade games are designed to be played forever, which is a similar common quality that feels arcade. Ideally though, if a game keeps looping it should also become so difficult that you need to be exceptionally skilled to keep playing.
• The game is simple, easy to understand an get into, usually controlled with only a couple of buttons, and focuses on a single basic gameplay loop.

Of course, this is typically the direct opposite of very un-arcade qualities, such as grinding, farming and free exploration, cutscenes, crafting, upgrade trees, anything menu-heavy, or 20 hour story heavy games. Anything designed specifically for the comfort of playing in your home and taking your good time with everything, is the antithesis to Arcade.  

But I think it's completely fair to just describe elements of a game as being comparatively arcade-like, even if the overall game isn't. I've previously described the first Dragon Quest game as a more "arcade" approach to the RPG genre in how it completely eschews inventory management and makes battles brisk and simple. But obviously, it's not an arcade game at all.

[Tanooki | 4,954]

9 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I've never understood the term Metroidvania.  That means a game is Metroid-like and involves backtracking and retracing your steps to gain items and unlock new areas.  What on earth does that have to do with Castlevania?  Someone give me a history lesson here...  Since SOTN is Metroid-like, and everyone loves that game, did they just mash the two together, giving SOTN half the credit for something that it 100% ripped off from the Metroid series?  That's my guess...

100% accurate.  Castlevania SOTN ass kissers in the media started throwin the term around in the 90s acting like Metroid was some mystery, which is bullshit, given enough lists put Super Metroid as the best SNES game out, top 3-5 at worst... it's a known known, not a known unknown.  Sony fanboys wanted their stake in the press, so they mashed them together to make sense giving a nod to Metroid and bastardized the name into metroidvania.  That's a term I dislike a lot, but am forced to use because the games really are I guess adventure-RPGs, or exploration games, but I guess that's just too confusing.

[PII | 1,899]

9 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I've never understood the term Metroidvania.  That means a game is Metroid-like and involves backtracking and retracing your steps to gain items and unlock new areas.  What on earth does that have to do with Castlevania?  Someone give me a history lesson here...  Since SOTN is Metroid-like, and everyone loves that game, did they just mash the two together, giving SOTN half the credit for something that it 100% ripped off from the Metroid series?  That's my guess...

Metroid & CastleVania II

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Deep state video game media controls the gamer terminology industrial complex

[Murray | 2,450]

@LastCat trained a pig to sniff out shrimps. 

[Link | 2,743]

5 minutes ago, PII said:

Metroid & CastleVania II

Everybody knows Castlevsnia II IsNt A REAL cAsTlEvAnIa GaMe, duh

4 hours ago, Sumez said:

You can play through the game in a single sitting, ideally less than an hour.

I agree with your overall assessment except for this part. Some games do adhere to that (like Donkey Kong or Kung Fu Master), but I appreciate your caveat because it's far from a defining characteristic and not present in most, imo. I would describe the aspect I think you're going for here as stage design that is simple or appears to be repetitive. (like Pac Man or Defender).

[Sumez | 2,995]

People pretending Castlevania SOTN isn't a fantastic classic with a ton of influence on countless games to follow it.

Oh yeah, it's all the.. *checks notes*  "sony fanboys" 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,995]

43 minutes ago, Link said:

I agree with your overall assessment except for this part. Some games do adhere to that (like Donkey Kong or Kung Fu Master), but I appreciate your caveat because it's far from a defining characteristic and not present in most, imo. I would describe the aspect I think you're going for here as stage design that is simple or appears to be repetitive. (like Pac Man or Defender).

Did you quote the wrong part? What I said had nothing to do with repetitive design (which I honestly don't believe is an arcade quality at all). I'm also kind of surprised that it's the one statement you'd have an issue with?

I think being able to complete a game in a single sitting is probably the most undeniably defining trait of the arcade. I struggle to think of an arcade game that takes longer than an hour to complete, and I'm quite convinced there isn't a single arcade game in the world that demands sitting down and playing multiple individual sittings in order to get through.
I mean sure, the Neo Geo did allow that with the memory card feature, but who ever used that?