Conceding to Game Terminology

[Gloves | 11,846]

@Sumez to assuage confusion - I'm just poking fun at that I noticed you mentioning you didn't like Demon Throttle over on the Shmup forum. I'm on there too but I really just lurk, and am under a different/older username.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

10 hours ago, Sumez said:

"Arcade" as a genre is, like many other genre terms, not really all-encompassing. A shoot'em up, a platformer, a beat'em up and a puzzle game can be an arcade game, but they can also have qualities that makes them less traditionally "arcade".

In general anything that concedes to the environment of a classic coin operated arcade can be described as "arcade", but what's most relevant is of course how those restrictions, as well as the business model, informs core aspects of game design.
I don't think playing for points is in any way required for something to feel "arcade", but it can definitely play a role.

Some general tendencies that I think most people could agree informs the idea of "arcade", even if there will always be some arcade games that make out the odd exception:

• You never want the player to spend too long doing anything, this includes any sort of decision making or rote repetition. Of course, that means there's a timer on everything, but mostly you just want the game to have a brisk pace that constantly pushed the player forward.
• The game is challenging and trying to make the player lose. You need skill and practice to overcome the game, not just persistence.
• You can play through the game in a single sitting, ideally less than an hour. Of course some (especially older) arcade games are designed to be played forever, which is a similar common quality that feels arcade. Ideally though, if a game keeps looping it should also become so difficult that you need to be exceptionally skilled to keep playing.
• The game is simple, easy to understand an get into, usually controlled with only a couple of buttons, and focuses on a single basic gameplay loop.

Of course, this is typically the direct opposite of very un-arcade qualities, such as grinding, farming and free exploration, cutscenes, crafting, upgrade trees, anything menu-heavy, or 20 hour story heavy games. Anything designed specifically for the comfort of playing in your home and taking your good time with everything, is the antithesis to Arcade.  

But I think it's completely fair to just describe elements of a game as being comparatively arcade-like, even if the overall game isn't. I've previously described the first Dragon Quest game as a more "arcade" approach to the RPG genre in how it completely eschews inventory management and makes battles brisk and simple. But obviously, it's not an arcade game at all.

I feel like you're way over-analyzing it.  The "Arcade genre," to me, are games with these basic qualities:

-Single screen levels
-No definitive ending (loops forever or until unintentional "kill screen")
-Objective is to attain the highest score possible via a test of your skill

So for me, the arcade genre nowadays has nothing to do whatsoever with whether a game originally came in an arcade cabinet; JAMMA games from the 90's and onward fit in other modern genres better (for example, Knights of the Round is a beat 'em up).

In 2023, if someone tells me a game is "arcade-style," I'm thinking single screen, loops forever, and playing for high score...

[Sumez | 2,995]

@GlovesI also just mentioned on this forum that I didn't like Demon Throttle 

Don't worry friend, I'm not keeping any secrets from you!

[phart010 | 1,708]

6 hours ago, Tulpa said:

I had to look it up, and apparently it's a Japanese term for "shooting game." To be honest, STG is pissing me off almost as much as shmup.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

Now I'm even more pissed off.

 

[cj_robot | 546]

Does everybody here drink IPAs while you play through your collection of "minty" SNEZZZZZ shmups (like S.T.G)? Or do you just drink rubbing alcohol like I do?

[nesmaster14 | 437]

14 hours ago, Sumez said:

Pretty much anyone into the genre has long since conceded to STG as an alternative, so there is really no need for any other alternatives. Shmup still gets thrown around a lot though. Like anything else, if you use a term often enough, and it's too long to spell out comfortably (shoot-em-up), it will 100% get shortened, so there is no way around that.

Yeah shmup makes sense, but I'm not sure if I've heard many people refer to them as STG outside of Japan.   It's definitely a phrase that's been around a long time too.  Personally I'm fine with it too and I like the aesthetic of it, but shmup has less syllables so I stick with that haha.

Or is it pronounced Stig?

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,019]

59 minutes ago, cj_robot said:

Does everybody here drink IPAs while you play through your collection of "minty" SNEZZZZZ shmups (like S.T.G)? Or do you just drink rubbing alcohol like I do?

I'm triggered

[spacepup | 2,412]

Metroidvania is just one of those things that came to be and I've just accepted it.  And despite some comments I've seen earlier in here, I do unironically use the term and I don't feel bad or have shame about it.  Most people into gaming or that style of game, know exactly what it means.  Someone literally just asked today, in discord, about recommendations for PC Metroidvania games.  By that, I knew EXACTLY what types of games they were looking for.

Whoever coined it, however it became popular, I don't really know.  But however it developed, it's just a term that explains a particular genre / style that is beloved by many people, including myself.  I don't know why it upsets people so much.

Shmup is one that I don't really say "shmup" in person, but I don't have any negative reaction to seeing it on screen or people chatting about it.  

Honestly, I think people really do just get way too riled up about some of this stuff.  Also, I think it's fine if someone doesn't like "ness" or "sness" or whatever, but some people are so dismissive of others who talk like that to the point they ridicule and demean them, which just seems silly to me.

As for the abbreviations, not everything needs to be so technical.  For example, maybe PS would be a more appropriate abbreviation, but for me, after so many iterations of PlayStation, when I'm talking with people I say "PS1" and everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about.  They know I'm talking about original PlayStation games.  If I say "PlayStation games" as opposed to "PS1 games" then they don't know what I'm talking about, depending on the crowd.  So saying "PS1" is just an easy way to portray information and communicate.  And words, abbreviations, etc. are all about communicating and understanding each other.

[Link | 2,743]

4 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

At least this is easily explained:

1. Download is frequently abbreviated as DL. So it makes sense to call it DLC. DC is way too broad, and is a common abbreviation used for way more prevalent things than downloadable content.
2. Download is originally two words, combined into one: down load. Therefore, DL makes sense.
3. An effective abbreviation needs to be google-friendly, these days. DC would not be a viable option. DLC works way better.

Ultimately, I agree with you. It's not optimal. But a lot of abbreviations work exactly like this. They incorporate a letter in the midst of a word. Often it's the first letter in what originally would have been separate words (like the L in Load).

DLC is at least more "user friendly" than DC, and I'd argue it makes a lot more sense than you'd initially think.

 

4 hours ago, Gloves said:

The point of abbreviations and initialisms is to get a long term or phrase out quickly and recognizably. Sure it might "make sense" from a strictly "these are the two parts of this term" stance to have it be "DC", but it'd quickly become confusing with just two letters representing something, or worse in Code Monkey's world of one-letter acronyms.

There's no rule about abbreviations that they need to follow a strict format, only that terms be shortened while remaining recognizable. Acronyms tend to follow the format of "first character of each word", but even they are not entirely consistent". Sometimes abbreviations have characters that don't even appear within the term or phrase itself, or use numbers to represent the amount of characters present, and in some cases even create fun infinite loops.

Examples:

• a11y = Accessibility
• i18n = Internationalization
• PHP = PHP: Hypertext Protocol
• W3 = World Wide Web (also W3C - World Wide Web Consortium)

Per Meriam-Webster: "The styling of abbreviations is inconsistent and arbitrary and includes many possible variations."

The English language is notoriously difficult to learn and of course stuff like this doesn't help much, but it is what it is and one of my favorite things about it is how fluid it really is. The dictionary changes regularly and I find that kinda fun. It's made me less of a stickler for traditionalism in language and more accepting of change overall in life.

Also yeah, shmup is a funny word, and my crusade to change it to "Shrimp" is everlasting.

Man, the two of you really have the deoxyribonucleuc acid for this question. Great answers.

[Murray | 2,450]

9 minutes ago, spacepup said:

As for the abbreviations, not everything needs to be so technical.  For example, maybe PS would be a more appropriate abbreviation, but for me, after so many iterations of PlayStation, when I'm talking with people I say "P" and everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about.  They know I'm talking about original PlayStation games.  If I say "PlayStation games" as opposed to "P games" then they don't know what I'm talking about, depending on the crowd.  So saying "P" is just an easy way to portray information and communicate.  And words, abbreviations, etc. are all about communicating and understanding each other.

FTFY

[spacepup | 2,412]

10 minutes ago, Murray said:

FTFY

Sorry to disappoint ya Murray, I'm not really into P games.  Some people are really into that, and hey, I'm not judging, everyone has their interest/fetish/whatever you wanna call it.  But not for me.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

29 minutes ago, spacepup said:

Sorry to disappoint ya Murray, I'm not really into P games.  Some people are really into that, and hey, I'm not judging, everyone has their interest/fetish/whatever you wanna call it.  But not for me.

Didn't we cover those recently in another thread with the advice of don't talk about them unless you know your audience? 

[CMR | 522]

At this point, I think there are more 2d Castlevania games that use the exploration style than there are 2d Metroid games.

[Sumez | 2,995]

3 hours ago, CMR said:

At this point, I think there are more 2d Castlevania games that use the exploration style than there are 2d Metroid games.

Let's tally up:

Metroid, M2, Super M, Fusion, Zero Mission, Samus Returns, Dread = 7
CV2, SOTN, COTM, HOD, AOS, DOS, POR, OOE = 8

I guess with the two recent MercurySteam games, Metroid is actually catching up. Or does Mirror of Fate count on the CV side? Ironically, also developed by MercurySteam.
The MSX game and Adventure Rebirth also have mild exploration elements, but they aren't straight up metroidvanias like the others.

[phart010 | 1,708]

The first time I remember hearing the term Metroidvania was on a Castlevania fansite as early as 2005-2006. This was before you could even find many game review videos with a voiced over narrative in the format that we are used to today, so it definitely hadn’t gone viral (at least to the extent it is today).
 

I want to say the site was Castlevania headquarters, although I just perused over there on the Symphony of the Night page and the term “Metroidvania” in quotes is not there (maybe they removed it?) 

I don’t think Castlevania SOTN was pumped up by Sony fanboys. I didn’t even own a PSX at that time, but we borrowed our neighbors for about a month just to be able to play SOTN. I didn’t compare it to Super Metroid in terms of better/worse… to me it was just the next game in the Super Metroid style of gameplay that I had been waiting for, but wasn’t getting from Nintendo 

 

[Tanooki | 4,954]

11 hours ago, Sumez said:

Let's tally up:

Metroid, M2, Super M, Fusion, Zero Mission, Samus Returns, Dread = 7
CV2, SOTN, COTM, HOD, AOS, DOS, POR, OOE = 8

I guess with the two recent MercurySteam games, Metroid is actually catching up. Or does Mirror of Fate count on the CV side? Ironically, also developed by MercurySteam.
The MSX game and Adventure Rebirth also have mild exploration elements, but they aren't straight up metroidvanias like the others.

Mirror of Fate does count, even the cast on that one blends the Belmont story over time with Trevor etc in there, it's an intended mix of Castlevania 3, SOTN style, god of war upgrade boxes.  Mercury Steam was picked up because of this game to do the 3DS Metroid failure (or not based o perspective) follow up remake of the old gameboy title, and in turn brought back again for the true 5th title Dread.

[RH | 4,984]

Did that list include Kid Dracula?

[Reed Rothchild | 9,599]

12 hours ago, Sumez said:

Let's tally up:

Metroid, M2, Super M, Fusion, Zero Mission, Samus Returns, Dread = 7
CV2, SOTN, COTM, HOD, AOS, DOS, POR, OOE = 8

I guess with the two recent MercurySteam games, Metroid is actually catching up. Or does Mirror of Fate count on the CV side? Ironically, also developed by MercurySteam.
The MSX game and Adventure Rebirth also have mild exploration elements, but they aren't straight up metroidvanias like the others.

There's also the other HoD

Maybe that doesn't count.  It's kinda in the ballpark.  Maybe.

[phart010 | 1,708]

6 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

There's also the other HoD

Maybe that doesn't count.  It's kinda in the ballpark.  Maybe.

Harmony of Despair is more like a multiplayer giant boss killing mission than a Metroidvania

[Reed Rothchild | 9,599]

15 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Harmony of Despair is more like a multiplayer giant boss killing mission than a Metroidvania

Let's dissect the difference between this game and the others to really dive into what makes a Metroidvania.

I think it's its own subgenre.  BossTroidVania.

[Gloves | 11,846]

6 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Let's dissect the difference between this game and the others to really dive into what makes a Metroidvania.

I think it's its own subgenre.  BossTroidVania.

Hollow Knight-like.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,599]

26 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Hollow Knight-like.

Hollowphemous

[Tanooki | 4,954]

Ehhhh...

So it must be that bosstroidvania is the prolapse advanced version of castlerodia?

This is getting super serious.

[Sumez | 2,995]

16 hours ago, phart010 said:

The first time I remember hearing the term Metroidvania was on a Castlevania fansite as early as 2005-2006. This was before you could even find many game review videos with a voiced over narrative in the format that we are used to today, so it definitely hadn’t gone viral (at least to the extent it is today).
 

I want to say the site was Castlevania headquarters, although I just perused over there on the Symphony of the Night page and the term “Metroidvania” in quotes is not there (maybe they removed it?) 

Ding ding ding!

Now it's not just my claim, phart is backing it up too  Like I already said, the "Metroidvania" term dates back to before it started being used as a broader genre term, and originates from the Castlevania fan community, as the opposite of the "Classicvania".

It's really just classic memetic mutation, so no reason to be all fired up about the castlevania series being represented in a genre description clearly defined by the metroid series alone, due to the devious manipulation of zealous Sony fanboys

 

11 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Maybe that doesn't count.  It's kinda in the ballpark.  Maybe.

The "other HOD" isn't a metroidvania style game at all. It's an arena based multiplayer game which does lend its design and controls from the metroidvania titles, but is structured entirely different.  

Edited January 24, 2023 by Sumez