Heritage Auctions Thread

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

With all the old timers here, I just shot NGD a message on Facebook.  Also showed that I haven't messaged him since my sister was pregnant...that kid is now 8...fuck I suck at keeping in touch

[port | 33]

5 minutes ago, osg said:

All of a sudden it's feeling a bit like 1999 in here... I'm not going to lie, I kind of like it. 

Is this the real OSG or the one who liked NA? Because they have to be different people. 

[AdamW | 713]

1 hour ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Ah ok, I have not seen that one. I didn't even know they were doing PC games lol. I guess just disc jewel cases?

PC Engine, not PC

This is the thread about the repros/bootlegs:

and this is the listing of a WATA-graded copy that is believed to be a bootleg:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224542332473

@karljobstin case you're still around and the NA nostalgia sausagefest didn't make you quit...=)

[osg | 52]

Just now, port said:

Is this the real OSG or the one who liked NA? Because they have to be different people. 

I am both of those people. I just don't take things seriously enough to dislike them I suppose. But also I don't like anything, really. 

[avatar! | 1,820]

1 minute ago, AdamW said:

and this is the listing of a WATA-graded copy that is believed to be a bootleg:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224542332473

@karljobstin case you're still around and the NA nostalgia sausagefest didn't make you quit...=)

Interesting... why do people believe it to be a bootleg?

[AdamW | 713]

4 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Interesting... why do people believe it to be a bootleg?

The thread explains the distinguishing features, the most clear is that the bootleg version has a sort of circle-in-a-circle character after the text 円4-3-1 in the very bottom row of text on the back; the genuine version does not have that character.

edit: I should credit @DefaultGenfor the info directly here, I guess! Thanks

Edited August 27, 2021 by AdamW

[RH | 4,924]

51 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

I’ve been here since like 5 days after the forums launched and this is the most Canadian thing you’ve said thus far

You missed an entire discussion on "smarties" and fruity pebbles then.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

10 hours ago, karljobst said:

I disagree when it comes to Halperin. From what I've heard (there is much more than what I put in the video) he does and did sit around thinking about how to make millions, and Wata was one of his ideas (I remind you he has been charged with fraud for multiple schemes). 

The problem I see is that in the best case scenario, people like Deniz do not understand or do not care about their responsibility as a grading company to remain neutral. They are supposed to be an objective party that only deals with the certification and quality assurance of games. They should not be impacting markets, speculating, driving prices up. This is because they have a massive conflict of interest (prices go up - more people grade games/speculate, they charge more). If you allow this kind of behaviour the end result is always market manipulation and fraud. Eventually, someone takes advantage of it. It needs to be stamped out immediately and not tolerated.

After viewing your video and participating in conversation here, the longer I've thought about it, the more it seems as if the associations of the two companies might have been specifically considered in order to leave WATA as the bag man should the FTC come knocking.  The charges and big fine in the 80s seemed to come from Halperin both offering value and dealing with the items themselves, but the way that WATA and HA have been linked (presumably up until WATA's acquisition/sale to an entity containing another auction house), WATA seemed to be the one specifically offering ideas about what the value of the collectibles were while grading them, with HA "only" handling the sales part via auction.  So if the FTC dropped the hammer on someone on misrepresenting the value of the graded games (via direct value quotes, various blurbs about scarcity unsubstantiated by publicly released population reports, etc.), the blame, charges, fines, etc., would seem to fall specifically away from HA/Halperin, avoiding a repeat of the coin debacle in the 80s.

10 hours ago, Aatos said:

It’s not the first time in this thread you make this argument that the alleged collusion/market manipulation (whether illegal or just unethical use of position) was ultimately irrelevant since the prices would’ve hit these highs eventually anyway, which is quite flawed in my opinion - it’s like you’re saying timing is irrelevant factor in investments, even though it’s literally Finance 101 that interest, opportunity cost (ie.deciding what one should invest in) etc. all critically depend on the timing of the investment.

To me it’s kinda similar to saying shill bidding is ok if the real bidder was still willing to pay the artificially inflated price, which I doubt you’d agree with.

Bingo.  If the prices "would have gotten there," we'll never know, as what market there was for these things was artificially pumped way up above things were, and had been for years, naturally trending.  The bit that SpacePup resurfaced in an ad for WATA around page 100 in this thread seems to say it all about their plans to "correct" the "problem" of "the market" (ie: collectors) "undervaluing" the commodity they were wanting to spike up prices on as high, and presumably quickly, as possible.

8 hours ago, karljobst said:

Was there ever a statement about why the database was taken offline? Were concerns addressed at any point?

I don't believe so.  There was a statement about how the software the old site was running on was no longer being maintained/available (technically false, as a web developer friend has to use the same platform and licensing is still available to this day, just expensive),  and the entire site needed to be moved to a different platform as a result.  There was some talk about everything getting ported over, but basically there was a massive text dump into the new software, leaving most things (posts, threads, private messages) askew versus easily readable and searchable in a legible fashion, then all responses from Jeff and the GoCollect team went 100% dark and unanswered

8 hours ago, kell said:

I answered a question, not making a point. There is demand, for high dollar games, from collectors

Yeah, but how many of the truly high dollar games that are being bought are actually being bought by collectors?  Collectors had been more than happy to spend a max of about $30K for the then nicest sealed early/original release SMB that had been publicly seen/acknowledged.  Then, within a matter of months, there's the $100K sale, then up to $2M within a couple of years.  That's not collectors pushing prices up that way, it's investors.  And even if some collectors ended up within that arena, I'm willing to lay down money on them doing so as investors (buying, then dumping said games, while maintaining their own, separate, collection) instead of as collectors.

7 hours ago, SealedWholesale said:

Deniz sent me an email in March 2018 saying Dain was on the advisory board

Yeah, that is some super sketchy stuff right there.  Even if the "advisory board" wasn't a real entity within the company/corporate structure of WATA, name dropping Dain (and potentially others) for doing him a solid as a friend in giving him friendly advice, off the official payroll, should have absolutely kept their names off of official press releases, investor hunting promotional materials, etc.  I did think it was interesting to see Bronty in that list, though, which again makes me wonder if his statement about selling the $100K SMB to WATA versus other interested parties "for the exposure" was due to a vested interest in the company or wanting to have the market soar high so that he could dump his collection.

6 hours ago, Vectrex28 said:

I really do wonder how much of the shady stuff WATA does is genuine ignorance and how much is scumbaggery

See my thoughts at the top of this reply about that.  As I said much earlier in this topic, I think the days of anyone at WATA being able to still maintain naivete about how things look or what is potentially (likely?) going on behind closed doors is long past the point where anyone could reasonably believe them.  Based on the events of the 80s with the coin market and how WATA got formed, I'd say there's the potential for some genuine ignorance at the beginning, then ramping up into scumbaggery the further down the line things went.

6 hours ago, kell said:

I said a particular segment of demand has grown organically. What you showed is price (total market). 

Since you are a CPA , and I'm CPA, I don't need to explain why you can not compare the two, right?

How would you even be able to separate the two at this point?  What magical list do you have showing what legitimate collectors have bought specifically to have and keep, despite the current crazy market prices, versus people buying into the bubble in order to make what bucks they can before it bursts?

6 hours ago, ZeldaFreak said:

I probably never would've had any interest in retro games in general (or, if nothing else, realized that collecting them was totally a thing I could do) were it not for me binging tons of AVGN videos as a kid back in the day.

Oh lord, stop making me feel so old!  I started watching AVGN before he got truly big, and that was around the time I got married!  I'm not ready for the walker yet!  Help me steer away from the light!

5 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Completely agree.

The most obvious explanation is that Wata puffed up their early marketing by overstating how involved some people were in their early days. 

At the time, it may not have felt like as much of an overstatement to Deniz (and he very well could have been hoping for/expecting ongoing advice/help at that time) -- but in hindsight, it's definitely a bad look for Wata.

I'm inclined to chalk Deniz's apparent misstep at that time to naivete and enthusiasm, though.

And given the other history in other collectibles -- my current leaning would be that if anyone acted "diabolically" and with ill-intent, it mostly falls on HA's doorstep.

For pretty much everyone else, it is very very easily chalked up to a form Hanlon's razor.  (where I would generously replace "stupidity" with core participants not ever really grasping the gravity of the inherent risks of the apparent conflicts of interest)

Seeing as Halperin was a part of the company at that early stage, with his level of experience in such things (especially having been charged and fined in the 80s), it might have been naivete and enthusiasm on Deniz's part, but I don't really believe that everybody involved would (or should) have missed those issues.  I'm really left wondering why this wouldn't have been addressed by the parties on the various boards in the earliest days given their combined decades of business experience, especially, as I point out in an earlier part of this post, that it basically leaves WATA holding the bag in regard to FTC issues with providing the public valuations on items they're also actively grading.  HA is "only" auctioning the items, while WATA seems to be providing expert opinions on valuation.  Since both parts of the equation aren't combined this time, as they were in the 80s, the FTC might not be able to do anything this time around, or, if they do, they drop the hammer on WATA since they're offering valuation data in addition to providing what's supposed to be objective grades to everything passing through their hands.

2 hours ago, Dain said:

Good to know I was only on my site 13 times! I entrusted the running of things to you and the other mods because, by this point in the NA timeline, I was trying to keep the site up and running and was constantly bombarded with PMs, emails, etc. The whole point of having a good moderator team is so that I *don't* have to hold your hand, which I didn't. So from your perspective, I "never showed up"; from mine, "I showed up when it was necessary to", and unfortunately, we're miles apart on why I had to show up when I did, which from my perspective, was due to that team being overzealous in the ban department.

Agree to disagree on my communication skills with the mods, but don't insult me by insinuating I was never on the site. I was working on the site 24/7 for over a decade of my life.

I don't know if this is the case or not, and I don't want to re-stir the pot, but your response really made me wonder if the folks bristling at you stepping in to take action only when needed had ever worked under a truly good manager.  I have, a couple of times, and that's exactly what it's like--once the staff is trained up to the point of fluency in what they're supposed to be doing, the manager above them really shouldn't need to get directly involved unless the circumstances are dire or the folks under them screw up and/or do something in a direction the manager disagrees with (which is then quickly corrected, explained, and then back to having hands off).

2 hours ago, B.A. said:

Not all of the staff caried over, but all of the staff here at VGS now were staff at the end of NA. Which makes more sense, everyone changed their personality with a new site? Or we weren't the ban happy censoring monsters some like to make us out to be?

I think some folks that made the direct transition absolutely seemed to change their personality with the new site.  Early admin/Gloves posts specifically pointed out that this place was to have and give a clean slate to everybody, but that people not willing to leave the past behind and starting trouble unnecessarily would be asked to correct their behavior or leave.  In some cases, I feel pretty close to some people I didn't get along with on NA, in others I'm still not buds with them, but I don't crap on them and they don't crap on me--quite the change from the old place.

[port | 33]

5 minutes ago, osg said:

I am both of those people. I just don't take things seriously enough to dislike them I suppose. But also I don't like anything, really. 

You might be the real OSG. You also might be the real OSG. Imcinfused. 

[LifeGame | 760]

On 8/25/2021 at 9:30 PM, the_wizard_666 said:

I've known Bronty a LONG time.  He's given me some bro deals in the past, mostly for the NES Sealed Contents List, so I know he's not afraid to take less now for long term gains.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's decided now's the time to cash out, in which case exposure is in his best interest.  That said, what I don't see him doing is intentional market manipulation to essentially rip people off.

Speaking of the contents list though...I'm kinda wanting to get hold of one of the "Carolina Collection" slabs just so I can film myself busting it open and posting it on YouTube.  The VGA Gun*Nac was the last one I did that with, and that was ages ago...I still had fucking hair ffs   Maybe I should start a GoFundMe

Which one you want ?

Honestly not for sale as i ‘’collect’’ sealed with no intention of selling except my doubles...it is possible to be in this for BOTH good reasons guys !

 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 minutes ago, AdamW said:

The thread explains the distinguishing features, the most clear is that the bootleg version has a sort of circle-in-a-circle character after the text 円4-3-1 in the very bottom row of text on the back; the genuine version does not have that character.

The question I'd have is whether it's actually a bootleg or if it's a Japanese version of a Limited Run rerelease...basically, is it a fake or an official aftermarket release.

[Gloves | 11,800]

2 minutes ago, RH said:

You missed an entire discussion on "smarties" and fruity pebbles then.

Yo Canadian Fruity Pebbles were simply better, and so by leagues. I miss them so much. 

[TDIRunner | 2,744]

3 minutes ago, RH said:

You missed an entire discussion on "smarties" and fruity pebbles then.

Don't forget the milk in a bag.  

[AdamW | 713]

2 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The question I'd have is whether it's actually a bootleg or if it's a Japanese version of a Limited Run rerelease...basically, is it a fake or an official aftermarket release.

I'm not familiar with the area at all, but from what I read in the thread, it seems the "PCE Works" prints are not properly licensed reprints. As best I can tell the operation is run out of Germany by some guy called Tobias. If you Google around "PCE Works" and "Tobias" you'll get some context.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

26 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Taste is subjective.  One person can be triggered by something the next thinks is perfectly fine.  I'd honestly prefer just to go wherever they crawled out from and join that community. 

Hey, I'm a huge fan of dick jokes and my sense of humor hasn't abandoned what it was in grade school just because it developed over time.  With that being said, there's a time and a place for just randomly going bonkers with that kind of thing.  Gloves specifically, politely, and calmly asked everybody to tone it down and take the off topic, off-color discussion somewhere else, somewhere more appropriate.  That shouldn't be seen as him "being the man" or "trying to spoil everyone's fun," as it's a reasonable request, and frankly one of the rules here is to not crap on/in threads and derail them.  If that makes you feel harshly about the site, mods/admins, Gloves himself, etc., as it's somehow inhibiting your freedom, I respectfully disagree and think that you'd likely see it the same way after a few deep breaths to cool off from all the giggling and bro-poking.

[RH | 4,924]

7 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

Don't forget the milk in a bag.  

Lol, I posted that statement and right when I got the notice of the quote, I recalled the long milk discussion.

Crack open a bottle of Maple and the Canadians start coming out of the wood work around here!

Edited August 27, 2021 by RH

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

12 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

 

Seeing as Halperin was a part of the company at that early stage, with his level of experience in such things (especially having been charged and fined in the 80s), it might have been naivete and enthusiasm on Deniz's part, but I don't really believe that everybody involved would (or should) have missed those issues.  I'm really left wondering why this wouldn't have been addressed by the parties on the various boards in the earliest days given their combined decades of business experience, especially, as I point out in an earlier part of this post, that it basically leaves WATA holding the bag in regard to FTC issues with providing the public valuations on items they're also actively grading.  HA is "only" auctioning the items, while WATA seems to be providing expert opinions on valuation.  Since both parts of the equation aren't combined this time, as they were in the 80s, the FTC might not be able to do anything this time around, or, if they do, they drop the hammer on WATA since they're offering valuation data in addition to providing what's supposed to be objective grades to everything passing through their hands.

 

Just quoting the part that was a reply to my earlier post.

 

The thing that is really interesting in all of this, is that I have a hard time believing that Wata managed to sell their company without the acquiring company doing necessary due diligence.  

I would never, ever, argue that there weren't heaping piles of conflict-of-interest from the outset.

But the question becomes: "Do you think that the acquiring company (a) didn't do due diligence? (b) didn't care about what they found? or (c) didn't find anything actually problematic?"

I think (a) is unlikely, at least.

 

Without their recent sale of the company, I'd have a less skeptical perspective in all of this.

 

That said -- they only sold Wata.  HA is still it's own thing, and could be doing all sorts of who-knows-what without compromising the sale of Wata.

Edited August 27, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

6 minutes ago, LifeGame said:

Which one you want ?

Honestly not for sale as i ‘’collect’’ sealed with no intention of selling except my doubles...it is possible to be in this for BOTH good reasons guys !

 

Either would be awesome tbh.  Both are already on the contents list, but Loopz has a manual variant iirc (possibly Dick Tracy as well), and any slight variance in the contents warrants a new listing.  That said, I totally get not selling from the collection.  Maybe if you get a dupe we can work something out though

2 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Hey, I'm a huge fan of dick jokes and my sense of humor hasn't abandoned what it was in grade school just because it developed over time.  With that being said, there's a time and a place for just randomly going bonkers with that kind of thing.  Gloves specifically, politely, and calmly asked everybody to tone it down and take the off topic, off-color discussion somewhere else, somewhere more appropriate.  That shouldn't be seen as him "being the man" or "trying to spoil everyone's fun," as it's a reasonable request, and frankly one of the rules here is to not crap on/in threads and derail them.  If that makes you feel harshly about the site, mods/admins, Gloves himself, etc., as it's somehow inhibiting your freedom, I respectfully disagree and think that you'd likely see it the same way after a few deep breaths to cool off from all the giggling and bro-poking.

I have nothing against @Gloves, I think he does an excellent job in an unenviable position.  I just disagree about it being an issue.  Not saying I'd leave here either, just that I'd like to go to wherever they are as well.  Also bear in mind that for a lot of these guys, there hasn't been a conversation between any of us for many years.  It may seem excessive in the context of this single thread, but being that it's the only thread they've posted in, and the thread has already been shit all over, I don't see it as a huge issue.  Agree to disagree.

 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

Just quoting the part that was a reply to my earlier post.

 

The thing that is really interesting in all of this, is that I have a hard time believing that Wata managed to sell their company without the acquiring company doing necessary due diligence.  

I would never, ever, argue that there weren't heaping piles of conflict-of-interest from the outset.

But the question becomes: "Do you think that the acquiring company (a) didn't do due diligence? (b) didn't care about what they found? or (c) didn't find anything actually problematic?"

I think (a) is unlikely, at least.

 

Without their recent sale of the company, I'd have a less skeptical perspective in all of this.

I don't think any official due diligence was skipped, but what companies and the FTC believe are sketchy enough practices to be charged/fined for can differ wildly.  Also, Dain made a mention about meetings they were having about how the company was going to be set up, run, etc., and him having literal screaming matches with a woman who had  seemed to take charge of the whole thing.  Who's to say there were official transcripts, minutes, etc., of those meetings taken?  If there's no official recordings or documentation of what went on, then sketchy, "off" suggestions which bumped WATA toward doing things they shouldn't could be easily denied as a he-said/she-said type thing in court, again leaving WATA being the bag man since they're the ones who could potentially be demonstrated as acting in bad faith.  Is this something that a potential purchaser should have caught and had caution about when investing a prospective purchase?  Absolutely, but seeing as they have their own auction house, and the market bubble that the WATA/HA pairing created still going crazy, who's to say that they cared, that the risk was greater than the potential reward?  If they can make $50M off the acquisition before any potential hand is caught in the cookie jar and the type of fine from the 80s is the same ($1.2M then), that's a drop in the bucket and still a good investment.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

7 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I have nothing against @Gloves, I think he does an excellent job in an unenviable position.  I just disagree about it being an issue.  Not saying I'd leave here either, just that I'd like to go to wherever they are as well.  Also bear in mind that for a lot of these guys, there hasn't been a conversation between any of us for many years.  It may seem excessive in the context of this single thread, but being that it's the only thread they've posted in, and the thread has already been shit all over, I don't see it as a huge issue.  Agree to disagree.

Well, honestly, I got really, really tired of all of the random, off topic jokes and fanning-of-drama-flames that kept going on and on and on in this topic since I stopped reading it late last night and hopped on this afternoon to discover roughtly TWENTY PAGES worth of stuff to digest (while it was still growing).  So if like 2 pages worth of dick jokes and 4-5 pages worth of similar material and GIFs just weren't there...yeah, big fan in a topic that's been as serious and expansive as this.  The occasional joke to lighten the mood can be very appropriate, and has been several times in this thread, but when half a dozen people all jump on the badnwagon and they just start feeding off of each other in an ongoing circle, well... (sorry Gloves, here's my hopefully one for the thread) ...it's annoying as fuck.  So, please, don't take it badly, but take it to heart, everybody doing jumping jacks in the middle of the room with their dicks out all giggling at the top of their lungs while the rest of this topic is going on at the edges really isn't appreciated anymore, even if it garnered several legitimate smiles and giggles from everyone at the start.

Edited August 27, 2021 by darkchylde28

[Johnny | 38]

I’m just here to see what other old NA members will show up

[a3quit4s | 4,108]

22 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

Don't forget the milk in a bag.  

Oh god as an American I blocked this out of my mind. 
 

WTF are Canadian fruity pebbles

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

10 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I don't think any official due diligence was skipped, but what companies and the FTC believe are sketchy enough practices to be charged/fined for can differ wildly.  Also, Dain made a mention about meetings they were having about how the company was going to be set up, run, etc., and him having literal screaming matches with a woman who had  seemed to take charge of the whole thing.  Who's to say there were official transcripts, minutes, etc., of those meetings taken?  If there's no official recordings or documentation of what went on, then sketchy, "off" suggestions which bumped WATA toward doing things they shouldn't could be easily denied as a he-said/she-said type thing in court, again leaving WATA being the bag man since they're the ones who could potentially be demonstrated as acting in bad faith.  Is this something that a potential purchaser should have caught and had caution about when investing a prospective purchase?  Absolutely, but seeing as they have their own auction house, and the market bubble that the WATA/HA pairing created still going crazy, who's to say that they cared, that the risk was greater than the potential reward?  If they can make $50M off the acquisition before any potential hand is caught in the cookie jar and the type of fine from the 80s is the same ($1.2M then), that's a drop in the bucket and still a good investment.

I'm not saying it makes them look squeaky clean, automatically, or anything.

I'm just saying it adds a pretty significant wrinkle, when you consider the scrutiny they were likely under for a company sale. (assuming it was done competently)

 

And again, recognizing that HA has been under no such scrutiny.

(and to reiterate, if it's necessary, I have no love for Wata, and thought it was a pretty major conflict of interest from the inception, in terms of how they were spooling up their original batch of grading -- and I don't know that it's a particularly "useful" service --- I'm just trying to stay a bit rational about what is "likely" versus what is simply possible, based on what we know)

Edited August 27, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[Gloves | 11,800]

2 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

Oh god as an American I blocked this out of my mind. 
 

WTF are Canadian fruity pebbles

Please don't make me go into it. 

[Rhapsody98 | 1,535]

14 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Well, honestly, I got really, really tired of all of the random, off topic jokes and fanning-of-drama-flames that kept going on and on and on in this topic since I stopped reading it late last night and hopped on this afternoon to discover roughtly TWENTY PAGES worth of stuff to digest (while it was still growing).  So if like 2 pages worth of dick jokes and 4-5 pages worth of similar material and GIFs just weren't there...yeah, big fan in a topic that's been as serious and expansive as this.  The occasional joke to lighten the mood can be very appropriate, and has been several times in this thread, but when half a dozen people all jump on the badnwagon and they just start feeding off of each other in an ongoing circle, well... (sorry Gloves, here's my hopefully one for the thread) ...it's annoying as fuck.  So, please, don't take it badly, but take it to heart, everybody doing jumping jacks in the middle of the room with their dicks out all giggling at the top of their lungs while the rest of this topic is going on at the edges really isn't appreciated anymore, even if it garnered several legitimate smiles and giggles from everyone at the start.

That's quite the mental image.    My view of the thread went kind of like this: