SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[Gloves | 11,812]

11 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Sombitch been lying the whole time and in plain sight too.  VGS = Video Gaming Supernintendo.  If you pull the hoodie off, you know you know who our leader really is.

 

Oh and sometimes, silence is the loudest sound.

[Hammerfestus | 3,874]

SNES sux!  Except PTO II.  I like PTO II.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

14 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

SNES sux!  Except PTO II.  I like PTO II.

It was also on the Saturn, so you can avoid the crappy SNES if you choose.

[Tanooki | 4,943]

13 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

SNES sux!  Except PTO II.  I like PTO II.

Damn right!  Love PAID TIME OFF TOO!

[Link | 2,721]

more details about how Doki Doki Panic was a Mario game before it was Not A Mario Game.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Link

[fox | 1,669]

Super Mario Bros Wonder has entered the chat

[Reed Rothchild | 9,563]

2 hours ago, fox said:

Super Mario Bros Wonder has entered the chat

Does it have saves or warp whistles?  Asking for a friend.

[Foochie776 | 1,059]

Someone said it, finally! 

[fcgamer | 4,738]

1 hour ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Does it have saves or warp whistles?  Asking for a friend.

Aside from RPGs, if the game is long enough that it can't be completed in one sitting, I'm not interested in playing it.

[Deadeye | 1,596]

42 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Aside from RPGs, if the game is long enough that it can't be completed in one sitting, I'm not interested in playing it.

Git gud

[fcgamer | 4,738]

26 minutes ago, Deadeye said:

Git gud

It's not about getting good or not, rather it's about not wanting to sink time like that.

[cj_robot | 545]

[Estil | 1,265]

20 hours ago, cj_robot said:

[AirVillain | 490]

Me when I see this thread getting some action...



 

On 11/5/2023 at 4:05 PM, Link said:

more details about how Doki Doki Panic was a Mario game before it was Not A Mario Game.

Watched the video. Well done. Well produced. However, I didn't quite get that from it.

Still.... Some random company (NOT Nintendo) made a prototype using the UPWARD scrolling and stacking blocks function and showed it to Nintendo (Miyamoto) and he said to make it better they should add side scrolling elements like Mario.

So later, the Mario team at Nintendo did exactly that for the promotional game. Then changed the characters later to make it into a Mario game.

Sounds like a not-Mario game prototype, made by not-Nintendo, got taken by Nintendo and made into a promotional game by the Mario team by adding side-scrolling "Mario-style elements" & promotional  logo's/etc. which then got made into a Mario game by inserting Mario characters/items by that same Mario team. 

 

SO... IN CONCLUSION: The reason why SMB2 isn't a true sequel is because 1) It wasn't the true sequel to begin with and was created out of necessity for the North American Market and 2) it's OG function and design of stacking blocks and UPWARD scrolling was designed OUTSIDE Nintendo, and not a "true" game function from the OG Super Mario game (the game in which this "sequel" is based on).

So when they brought that prototype into Nintendo the Mario team took that concept and made it better by adding the Mario game elements, improving it, and made it into a playable game for the Dream Factory festival, then eventually adding the Mario characters out of NECESSITY later.

@docile tapeworm What do you think about how this is worded?
 

On 11/8/2023 at 8:35 PM, fcgamer said:

Aside from RPGs, if the game is long enough that it can't be completed in one sitting, I'm not interested in playing it.

Well I suppose that depends what "one sitting" means to you....

But Jesus... You're really limiting yourself... for no reason. Like, if the game is good, then who cares if can be "completed in one sitting" or not?

Just because you can't beat it in this one magical sitting, you're just going to throw it in the trash and stop playing it forever?

I mean, I KNOW the vast majority of NES games are meant to be played in one go, but some take a touch of time *coughs SMB3* to complete.

So out of pure curiosity, and for the sake of science/this thread, are you spending a couple hours to complete SMB3, or is that too long for you?

Edited November 13, 2023 by AirVillain
Added conclusion, please read.

[fcgamer | 4,738]

43 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

Me when I see this thread getting some action...



 

Watched the video. Well done. Well produced. However, I didn't quite get that from it.

Still.... Some random company (NOT Nintendo) made a prototype using the UPWARD scrolling and stacking blocks function and showed it to Nintendo (Miyamoto) and he said to make it better they should add side scrolling elements like Mario.

So later, the Mario team at Nintendo did exactly that for the promotional game. Then changed the characters later to make it into a Mario game.

Sounds like a not-Mario game prototype, made by not-Nintendo, got taken by Nintendo and made into a promotional game by the Mario team by adding side-scrolling "Mario-style elements" & promotional  logo's/etc. which then got made into a Mario game by inserting Mario characters/items by that same Mario team. 

 

SO... IN CONCLUSION: The reason why SMB2 isn't a true sequel is because 1) It wasn't the true sequel to begin with and was created out of necessity for the North American Market and 2) it's OG function and design of stacking blocks and UPWARD scrolling was designed OUTSIDE Nintendo, and not a "true" game function from the OG Super Mario game (the game in which this "sequel" is based on).

So when they brought that prototype into Nintendo the Mario team took that concept and made it better by adding the Mario game elements, improving it, and made it into a playable game for the Dream Factory festival, then eventually adding the Mario characters out of NECESSITY later.

@docile tapeworm What do you think about how this is worded?
 

Well I suppose that depends what "one sitting" means to you....

But Jesus... You're really limiting yourself... for no reason. Like, if the game is good, then who cares if can be "completed in one sitting" or not?

Just because you can't beat it in this one magical sitting, you're just going to throw it in the trash and stop playing it forever?

I mean, I KNOW the vast majority of NES games are meant to be played in one go, but some take a touch of time *coughs SMB3* to complete.

So out of pure curiosity, and for the sake of science/this thread, are you spending a couple hours to complete SMB3, or is that too long for you?

I always play Mario 3 in one go, and do all the stages too.

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@AirVillain I always thought the proto was in house nintendo r&d (4?). But imo the proto was just an idea for a game. I don’t think they were like “hey I got this idea of vertical scrolling, platforming, stacking blocks to make a SMB game”. Miyamoto is quoted as saying “make it more Mario like”. That makes me think the thing was never intended for SMB. 

So the question I always have is…”if the proto was always meant to be a SMB game why didn’t they make it a fucking SMB game?”. That’s not what Nintendo did with the proto…..they made it doki doki panic. When the dream factory asked Nintendo to make a game Nintendo didn’t say “oh no no we can’t use that vertical proto idea for this project. that’s for a SMB game”. No they were like oh shit remember that proto idea we were fucking with? Let’s use that. 
 

so now we got Nintendo made doki doki panic. Done. Project over right. Like am I supposed to believe Nintendo is now sitting around with the idea of still using the proto concept for a SMB game? Cause it doesn’t seem that way when they send smb2 to Howard Phillips. Howard says “wtf is this” and Nintendo is scrambling am I right? Ooooooohhhhh wait no that’s right. Nintendo said “Howard we got you little buddy. You see this here doki panic game. It was always gonna be a Mario game. We completely forgot that was the purpose the whole time! We completely forgot to reskin this thing and add Mario elements to make it a Mario game and send it to you. Who the fuck sent Howard smb2?! Get his ass over here now!” Then they all laugh together about how silly Nintendo of Japan had been for forgetting that the proto was always going to be a SMB game. Even though that’s not what they used it for first and sent Howard smb2 for America……….

[Link | 2,721]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:12 AM, docile tapeworm said:

Miyamoto is quoted as saying “make it more Mario like”. That makes me think the thing was never intended for SMB.

You can't say "never" because that undermines the whole process. This is emblematic of the way Nintendo made games back in the day. It's an old school approach and it's not even unique to Nintendo. They didn't ever start with the characters. You're looking at it like a drawing that was visualized from the start and that just isn't the way these things happened. It was always "do something new", followed up later by "what character can we apply this to?"

Look at the programming perspective. When all of the console technology and programming were basically experimental - you can see this in the old Nerdy Nights tutorials, or hell, look at some of the programmer blogs or Share forum on this site - game design used to be, first, "how do I draw a square on the screen and make it do something interesting", and then only later, "who is the square" "what does the square look like".

So when you hear, "essentially a proof of concept for how a vertically scrolling Mario-like game could work", just because that got shelved for a bit and reconstituted later, doesn't mean the final result doesn't belong in the series. When you hear "athletic game" do you think Super Mario or Track & Field? Because that is what SMB1 was originally intended to be, per assignments given by Miyamoto. And climbing fits with that. The whole AVGN-type "black sheep" theory is utter bullshit and I need people to stop buying into this clickbait revisionist history raging garbage. Why would it not belong? Because as the very first sequel it had a different look and enemies? How do you expect sequels to work? You want it to be exactly the same, basically DLC extra stages and challenge, which is what SMB2j feels like? How do you reconcile that halfway-Kaizo and primitive graphics with SMB3? Just because 2USA didn't have [?] blocks... come on.

Super Mario Bros. is not a real Mario game because it was scrolling instead of single screen and has goombahs and no crabs or flies. That's an equivalent thesis.

[Tanooki | 4,943]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:17 AM, AirVillain said:

Watched the video. Well done. Well produced. However, I didn't quite get that from it.

Still.... Some random company (NOT Nintendo) made a prototype using the UPWARD scrolling and stacking blocks function and showed it to Nintendo (Miyamoto) and he said to make it better they should add side scrolling elements like Mario.

So later, the Mario team at Nintendo did exactly that for the promotional game. Then changed the characters later to make it into a Mario game.

Sounds like a not-Mario game prototype, made by not-Nintendo, got taken by Nintendo and made into a promotional game by the Mario team by adding side-scrolling "Mario-style elements" & promotional  logo's/etc. which then got made into a Mario game by inserting Mario characters/items by that same Mario team. 

Still looking to die on that cross of misinformation eh? Since when was a prototype made by Kensuke Tanabe a random company that's not Nintendo?  But hey, you know, maybe you'll get lucky and keep peddling that garbage you cling to enough you get the write the history books to fit your narrative.  That's how it usually goes, whoever wins calls the reality.  I still find it amusing this far along you dismiss key figures/creators of the franchise from Nintendo and what they said because you know better.  Good job.  I get you're a mario fan, but like the super mushrooms he eats I don't think are the same ones you're chomping as you're trippin'.

 

Like Link said it was a technological age of new ideas and approaches, growth given the open ended mapper business of the FC/NES side of things.  They had something working, shelved it due to other projects, X happens and DDP exists, Y then happens and returns to the root idea to a Mario game, then they re-enforce it as a Mario game as SM USA.  Back then you start with a concept, build out, and keep building.  Just like he said, really there is NO super mario bros by your lack of logic, because that was 'athletic game' not SMB that came after.  It's a fake Mario I guess not having shell creepers and freezies and rest let alone lacking the one screen mechanics too.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Tanooki

[AirVillain | 490]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:40 PM, Tanooki said:

Still looking to die on that cross of misinformation eh? Since when was a prototype made by Kensuke Tanabe a random company that's not Nintendo?  But hey, you know, maybe you'll get lucky and keep peddling that garbage you cling to enough you get the write the history books to fit your narrative.  That's how it usually goes, whoever wins calls the reality.  I still find it amusing this far along you dismiss key figures/creators of the franchise from Nintendo and what they said because you know better.  Good job.  I get you're a mario fan, but like the super mushrooms he eats I don't think are the same ones you're chomping as you're trippin'.

 

Like Link said it was a technological age of new ideas and approaches, growth given the open ended mapper business of the FC/NES side of things.  They had something working, shelved it due to other projects, X happens and DDP exists, Y then happens and returns to the root idea to a Mario game, then they re-enforce it as a Mario game as SM USA.  Back then you start with a concept, build out, and keep building.  Just like he said, really there is NO super mario bros by your lack of logic, because that was 'athletic game' not SMB that came after.  It's a fake Mario I guess not having shell creepers and freezies and rest let alone lacking the one screen mechanics too.

Haha... what are you even talking about here, man? 

Die on a cross of misinformation???? Hahaha, Jesus...

That video shared by Link, which was the basis of the "misinformation" says the prototype was made by "Nintendo's partner Systems Research & Development" and PRESENTED to Shigeru Miyamoto and Kensuke Tanabe.... which is when Miyamoto suggested they add side-scrolling Mario type elements.

Sssssssssssssssoooooooooooo.....?????

SRD is also listed as "partner" here: https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/SRD
 

Besides that, though.... NO MATTER WHO PROGRAMMED IT (group inside/outside Nintendo), it was surely NOT Miyamoto and Kensuke Tanabe (aka the SMB team) as you so claim.... So who is looking to die on what cross???

I find it funny how you want to make this so complicated, when it's pretty straightforward timeline (clearly presented in the video by Link):

*SMB is a big hit

*Upward scrolling prototype gets made, presented to Ninendo, and Tanabe and Miyamoto turn it down but Miyamoto tells them to add Mario elements.

*SMB2 Japan is released and is another hit.

*Nintendo has partnership with Dream Factory festival and needs to create a game. Doki Doki Panic gets made based on the SRD prototype and to make it more interesting they take aspects from their wildly successful SMB game.

*SMB2 sequel gets sent to Howard Phillips and he shits all lover it and sends it back.

*Miyamoto and his team re-skin Doki Doki Panic with Mario characters and send it back to Howard Phillips.

HOW IS THAT SO COMPLICATED????

On 11/14/2023 at 10:52 PM, Link said:

You can't say "never" because that undermines the whole process. This is emblematic of the way Nintendo made games back in the day. It's an old school approach and it's not even unique to Nintendo. They didn't ever start with the characters. You're looking at it like a drawing that was visualized from the start and that just isn't the way these things happened. It was always "do something new", followed up later by "what character can we apply this to?"

Look at the programming perspective. When all of the console technology and programming were basically experimental - you can see this in the old Nerdy Nights tutorials, or hell, look at some of the programmer blogs or Share forum on this site - game design used to be, first, "how do I draw a square on the screen and make it do something interesting", and then only later, "who is the square" "what does the square look like".

So when you hear, "essentially a proof of concept for how a vertically scrolling Mario-like game could work", just because that got shelved for a bit and reconstituted later, doesn't mean the final result doesn't belong in the series. When you hear "athletic game" do you think Super Mario or Track & Field? Because that is what SMB1 was originally intended to be, per assignments given by Miyamoto. And climbing fits with that. The whole AVGN-type "black sheep" theory is utter bullshit and I need people to stop buying into this clickbait revisionist history raging garbage. Why would it not belong? Because as the very first sequel it had a different look and enemies? How do you expect sequels to work? You want it to be exactly the same, basically DLC extra stages and challenge, which is what SMB2j feels like? How do you reconcile that halfway-Kaizo and primitive graphics with SMB3? Just because 2USA didn't have [?] blocks... come on.

Super Mario Bros. is not a real Mario game because it was scrolling instead of single screen and has goombahs and no crabs or flies. That's an equivalent thesis.

It's really not that complicated.

It (SMB2) just simply wasn't programmed as a Mario game to being with. It's really just that simple.

Edited November 18, 2023 by AirVillain

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:52 PM, Link said:

You can't say "never" because that undermines the whole process. This is emblematic of the way Nintendo made games back in the day. It's an old school approach and it's not even unique to Nintendo. They didn't ever start with the characters. You're looking at it like a drawing that was visualized from the start and that just isn't the way these things happened. It was always "do something new", followed up later by "what character can we apply this to?"

Look at the programming perspective. When all of the console technology and programming were basically experimental - you can see this in the old Nerdy Nights tutorials, or hell, look at some of the programmer blogs or Share forum on this site - game design used to be, first, "how do I draw a square on the screen and make it do something interesting", and then only later, "who is the square" "what does the square look like".

So when you hear, "essentially a proof of concept for how a vertically scrolling Mario-like game could work", just because that got shelved for a bit and reconstituted later, doesn't mean the final result doesn't belong in the series. When you hear "athletic game" do you think Super Mario or Track & Field? Because that is what SMB1 was originally intended to be, per assignments given by Miyamoto. And climbing fits with that. The whole AVGN-type "black sheep" theory is utter bullshit and I need people to stop buying into this clickbait revisionist history raging garbage. Why would it not belong? Because as the very first sequel it had a different look and enemies? How do you expect sequels to work? You want it to be exactly the same, basically DLC extra stages and challenge, which is what SMB2j feels like? How do you reconcile that halfway-Kaizo and primitive graphics with SMB3? Just because 2USA didn't have [?] blocks... come on.

Super Mario Bros. is not a real Mario game because it was scrolling instead of single screen and has goombahs and no crabs or flies. That's an equivalent thesis.

I get what you’re saying about just because the proto wasn’t first intended for SMB that doesn’t mean it couldn’t become that. But I still think sm usa is less than the rest of the series. It’s just a cheap reskin. You can think about it however you like but for me nintendo never sat down with that concept and built a SMB game. Are you saying nintendo never started a project with a title in mind? Like the crew at Nintendo was always working on projects with no direction and decided halfway or more through the project what it would be.
 

It’s not bs that it doesn’t belong though. It doesn’t belong because it was never meant to be in the SMB series. It’s not crazy it’s actuality. Plenty of sequels and ongoing game series progress with graphics and levels while gameplay stays the same. Do you scoff at ninja gaiden 2,3 mega man 2,3,4,5,6 rad racer 2, adventure island 2,3….

The idea SMB is not a real Mario game by comparing it to a stand alone game with a different title unrelated to the series “SMB” seems like a bad idea.

take any other famicom game not released in the USA, reskin it with Mario universe and slap a “Mario” title on it. Bam. “Mario game” because.

[Link | 2,721]

58 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

It's really not that complicated

No, it’s not.   

58 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

It (SMB2) just simply wasn't programmed as a Mario game to being with.

Yes, it was. Are you saying “programmed” and “released” are the same thing? Because it was indeed programmed as a Mario game before it was associated with any other property. 

[Link | 2,721]

42 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

it was never meant to be in the SMB series.

Yes, it was. The real story isn’t “never” it’s “wasn’t in between the first engine release”

44 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

Are you saying nintendo never started a project with a title in mind? Like the crew at Nintendo was always working on projects with no direction and decided halfway or more through the project what it would be.

Have you read Game Over by David Sheff? 

46 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

take any other famicom game not released in the USA, reskin it with Mario universe and slap a “Mario” title on it. Bam. “Mario game” because.

Yes. Because: Nintendo said so. Tell me another example where you argue with a creator. The basis that their second entry to a series does not belong in that series because you personally don’t like the way it followed up is absurd.

On top of that. You’re talking about a character and franchise that touches as many genres as possible. Arcade. Platforming. RPG. Various sports like tennis and soccer and racing and baseball and the olympics! Paper RPG. Fighting. Open world. And you’re gonna sit here and say the 2nd game in a very early series based on this all-over-the-place flagship everywhere IP doesn’t belong because it had differences from its one predecessor? 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@Link havent read that book.

My basis that the second entry doesn’t belong is because it’s doki doki panic with a reskin. Not that I simply don’t like it that way. 
 

im not talking about the character though. I’m talking about the game.

Super Mario USA not a real SMB game.

I like the discussion though. I have a hard time understanding the angle that sm usa is anything but a fraud of the SMB series. I’m trying to see it but seems like the answer is “because Nintendo said so” and that feels like a dangerous belief.

Edited November 18, 2023 by docile tapeworm

[fcgamer | 4,738]

6 hours ago, Link said:

Yes, it was. The real story isn’t “never” it’s “wasn’t in between the first engine release”

Have you read Game Over by David Sheff? 

Yes. Because: Nintendo said so. Tell me another example where you argue with a creator. The basis that their second entry to a series does not belong in that series because you personally don’t like the way it followed up is absurd.

On top of that. You’re talking about a character and franchise that touches as many genres as possible. Arcade. Platforming. RPG. Various sports like tennis and soccer and racing and baseball and the olympics! Paper RPG. Fighting. Open world. And you’re gonna sit here and say the 2nd game in a very early series based on this all-over-the-place flagship everywhere IP doesn’t belong because it had differences from its one predecessor? 

Starwars, greedo shoots last, how you like them apples?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

SMB 2 is the only good Mario game imo.  When I first found out it was something completely different in Japan, I was like "oh, now it makes sense."  That said, design choices that debuted in the game have become staples of the series.  Toad as a character debuted in SMB 2 (previously he was a "mushroom retainer" that was basically just a background NPC).  And the fact that it took place outside of the Mushroom Kingdom allowed it to use a completely different roster of enemies, which I wish they did more often back then...Mario and his gang of heroes would travel the realms and help out wherever they went...that seems more compelling than "oh shit, here comes Bowser AGAIN..."  Like the dude should be dead after falling in that lake of lava, how does he keep popping up?