SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Counterpoint, this is a person who willingly interacts with Skinny.

That puts her entire judgment into doubt right there. 

 

 

(Luv ya, Skinny!)

But you willingly interact with me as well

[Tulpa | 3,494]

46 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

But you willingly interact with me as well

Have you seen my posts? My judgment was compromised a long time ago.

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

10 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Have you seen my posts? My judgment was compromised a long time ago.

So basically your agreeing smb2usa is a fake Mario game

[Tulpa | 3,494]

1 hour ago, docile tapeworm said:

So basically your agreeing smb2usa is a fake Mario game

Well, that would mean we think it is, but we're both so delusional that it actually isn't fake.

 

I might be okay with that.

[spacepup | 2,404]

My perspective is thus - who is better suited to officially determining whether something is a 'Mario' game:  Nintendo, or random person on the internet?

Nintendo officially released SMB2 USA as a 'Mario' game, and thus, in my opinion it is a 'Mario' game.

We all know about its unique development path and the whole Doki Doki Panic situation.  It's just a unique facet of this game.

People can go back and forth for years (and they have) about whether this is a 'real' sequel or not, but it's sort of a series of endless conversations and arguments based mostly on semantics and perspectives.  

I said above it is a real 'Mario' game - and I suppose people can go back and try to redefine what it means to be a real / authentic Mario game, and continue to go back further and further, challenging the definition of everything, but I don't know, that seems not very valuable.

I think people have taken a very simple situation and made it overly complicated.  SMB2 USA is a Mario 'sequel' that has a unique development path and background.

[AirVillain | 489]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:24 PM, docile tapeworm said:

@AirVillain I actually dislike the tanooki suit because I feel like it’s trying to hard. Like c’mon we already got leaf over here just completely handling things why are you coming in cramping leaf’s style. It’s like a riced out version of leaf and the statue isn’t very practical. Like I’ve never thought “shit I need the statue power”. I’m not a fan of changing the aesthetic value while keeping the same functionality. 

Interesting. I agree that the game isn't THAT difficult, and the Leaf is an easy way to glide through the game. But maybe some others, less skilled babies, DO use it?

I mean, it's kinda handy in levels with spikes and ghosts, those weird multi-coloured circles that float around, etc. But you gotta kind be good AND fucking around to kill that shit.... so.... yeah, I get it.

As a child I LOVED the Tanooki Suit because it was 1) an upgraded leaf and 2) so "elusive". Since I (obviously? And rightfully so) loved the Leaf, getting the Tanooki Suit was like an extra fun bonus. Hitting a giant block and seeing that little raccoon suit bounce around the screen was so incredible.

Of course the functionality of the statue is limited, and I mostly would just used the statue in the pipe you use to go across the map in World 5. So using it as a kid was kinda useless, I don't recall using it very effectively.

Okay... I STILL love the Tanooki Suit. Definitely #1 for me in ALL suits ever in SMB. Not for it's use in the game, but just the nostalgia and fun variety of things you can do with it now as an adult.

Like.... One of the things I'll do the "most" is throw in SMB3 and try to beat World 5 ship with a Tanooki Suit (as opposed to "beating" the game with whistles, or playing a few levels of the first/whatever world).

I fucking LOVE that shit when the king thanks you and says something different because you got the Tanooki Suit on (*No Spoilers ).

The Frog suit is one I don't try too often because of how annoying it is on land, haha.

 

On 12/6/2023 at 1:37 PM, Link said:

ok man whatever

Nah man, haha, I appreciate the discourse. I get what you're saying and I pretty much agree with everything you're saying. It just mostly boils down to semantics and what each of us "mean". More below.

 

On 12/6/2023 at 2:50 PM, G-type said:

1) Howard Philips certainly lobbied against SMB2japan, but ultimately, it was Mr. Arakawa's decision.

2) so what?

3) The main reason they were able to easily adapt it, was because Miyamoto continuously encouraged them to make it more "mario-like" throughout its development. (doki doki was originally going to be vertical only)

4) When the conversation is: "which is the best?"... (the implication being that the its a battle between first a second place between SMB3 and SMW)... its totally fair to bring up SMB2, if you think its the best. Doki Doki (1987) started its development a full year after SMB3 (1986) and that later start date gave it the edge in some graphical and technical areas. Especially the sprites:

 

1) No doubt, but if Howard had greenlit the OG SMB2 then it (probably most likely with almost 100% certainty?) would have been a go for the North American market and we would have gotten purple death mushrooms? SO SMB2USA simply wouldn't exist if he had liked the first sequel from the disk system.

2) Just saying... SMB2USA wasn't the original, or intended, sequel to SMB. 

3) Yes, agreed 100%. They (Nintendo when developing Doki) had to use "Mario-like" game elements to make it more fun, so they used what worked before with SMB. This is not surprising and smart of them.

4) It's totally "fair to bring up SMB2", but it's not the conversation we're having. Why? Because it plays like a completely different game. So inherently (in my view in which this thread was created), it's not the same style/type of game as SMB, SMB3, or SMW.

So yeah.... you could bring it up, but as far as I'm concerned it's SO FAR behind both, it's not even in the same conversation. Which is why SMB2USA was not mentioned ONCE in my original post.

The "reasons" why SMB2USA was "different" have been discussed, and it's pretty clear WHY it plays so differently and why it wouldn't be "in the same conversation" as mentioned. This I believe to be a worthy and beneficial part of the discussion, though, because it just amplifies the reason why the discussion would be SMB3 vs SMW.

As you mentioned, SMB2USA was created completely independently of SMB1-3, given the timeline, etc. And if the "technical upgrades" to the sprites is your best reasoning for thinking it should be discussed then that proves my point.

As I so obviously made clear with my "Mario is wearing BLACK pants in SMB3!?!!!?!??" NA thread (I don't expect you to remember this), the sprites are less impactful for me than the gameplay itself.

Sure, SMB2USA has "better" graphics than SMB3, but the gameplay is far inferior. I've felt that since I was a kid. SMB2USA is much slower (than SMB, SMB3, & SMW) and has MANY elements that are unique to it (vertical levels, digging, style of boss battles... biggest clearly being the vertical levels "slowing things down") that make it "feel" "different".

If someone thinks SMB2USA is a "better" game than SMB3/SMW then that's fine. Just not my jam (hence the thread )
 

On 12/7/2023 at 9:40 AM, spacepup said:

My perspective is thus - who is better suited to officially determining whether something is a 'Mario' game:  Nintendo, or random person on the internet?

Nintendo officially released SMB2 USA as a 'Mario' game, and thus, in my opinion it is a 'Mario' game.

We all know about its unique development path and the whole Doki Doki Panic situation.  It's just a unique facet of this game.

People can go back and forth for years (and they have) about whether this is a 'real' sequel or not, but it's sort of a series of endless conversations and arguments based mostly on semantics and perspectives.  

I said above it is a real 'Mario' game - and I suppose people can go back and try to redefine what it means to be a real / authentic Mario game, and continue to go back further and further, challenging the definition of everything, but I don't know, that seems not very valuable.

I think people have taken a very simple situation and made it overly complicated.  SMB2 USA is a Mario 'sequel' that has a unique development path and background.

Agreed and very well said.

I just enjoy it (the conversation) because we get to "dig deeper" into the games' history/our love for the games. We all have different experiences with each NES game, and the Super Mario series on NES lends itself to a fun discussion because of the discussed "differences" between the 3 games.

That combined with our each individual history/preferences for the games lends itself to a fun discussion. I feel it gives us each a chance to discuss how we feel and get into the semantics of using the words "real" and "the" and "a" to describe a video game.

So... for example: I find it fascinating that Skinny will be like "MARIO is a fake Mario game " and others will be like "of course SMB2USA is a Mario game".

And me... I'll be like "Well, yes, SMB2USA is a real Mario game as released by Nintendo, but it wasn't the original sequel they created and wouldn't exist if it wasn't for this cool guy who worked at Nintendo America, so it plays kinda differently and not really like SMB, SMB3, or SMW."

Like... I think we're all correct in our own context of what we are saying.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,526]

@ZeldaFreak he's trying to steal your wall-of-text thunder

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

4 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

@ZeldaFreak he's trying to steal your wall-of-text thunder

Good, make those jokes about someone else for a change

[Gloves | 11,777]

31 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

I fucking LOVE that shit when the king thanks you and says something different because you got the Tanooki Suit on (*No Spoilers ).

The Frog suit is one I don't try too often because of how annoying it is on land, haha.

The king also says different things if you beat the ship levels as a frog or hammer bro. 

[Gaia Gensouki | 1,073]

Just one little silly thing that came to mind while we're discussing SMB2 and SMB USA. Back in the day we didn't know about the history of these games. All we had was something like Super Mario Land, SMW and All-Stars. But because of the way that the games were organized, I thought that The Lost Levels was actually SMB4 basically thinking that this was a back to the roots kind of situation where they made the game closer to the original.

I also remember that we used to refer to Zelda: A Link to the Past as Zelda III. Or Link's Awakening as Zelda IV and so on.

[AirVillain | 489]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:30 PM, Gloves said:

The king also says different things if you beat the ship levels as a frog or hammer bro. 

Yes, I find that fascinating. I was just saying I don't try to beat a ship with the Frog suit too often because of how awkwardly it handles on the land, so getting to the king with the Frog suit is much more annoying.

I just find it hilarious.... The King just sitting there thanking a Frog. Damn Frog stealing Mario's credit!

 

On 12/8/2023 at 2:09 PM, Gaia Gensouki said:

Just one little silly thing that came to mind while we're discussing SMB2 and SMB USA. Back in the day we didn't know about the history of these games. All we had was something like Super Mario Land, SMW and All-Stars. But because of the way that the games were organized, I thought that The Lost Levels was actually SMB4 basically thinking that this was a back to the roots kind of situation where they made the game closer to the original.

I also remember that we used to refer to Zelda: A Link to the Past as Zelda III. Or Link's Awakening as Zelda IV and so on.

Not a silly thing.... Great input!

Haha, that's funny. I mean, it kinda makes sense.... especially for a kid.

I can't recall ever ever really questioning the Lost Levels too much. I think we thought it was literally that.... "lost"/unused levels from SMB. I did wonder why Mario was holding up his hand with a "Peace" sign, though....

 

On 12/8/2023 at 1:23 PM, Reed Rothchild said:

@ZeldaFreak he's trying to steal your wall-of-text thunder

"Trying"....?

Seriously, though.... I just wasn't sure on the netiquette of it, haha. "Needed" to quote all the people, so I just went for it.

I guess the "proper" netiquette is just to shut up a bit and not type so much??? Hahaha.... that's hard for me. As you know/pointed out.

Edited December 13, 2023 by AirVillain
Clarification...

[twiztor | 851]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:09 PM, Gaia Gensouki said:

I also remember that we used to refer to Zelda: A Link to the Past as Zelda III. Or Link's Awakening as Zelda IV and so on.

same, but i think the mags at the time also referred to LttP as Zelda 3, so it's understandable. i don't remember the same thing happening with LA, but we definitely said it too!

[NostalgicMachine | 235]

22 hours ago, twiztor said:

same, but i think the mags at the time also referred to LttP as Zelda 3, so it's understandable. i don't remember the same thing happening with LA, but we definitely said it too!

I vividly remember ALTTP being referred to as Zelda III as well.

Still to this day my favorite game of all time.