SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Skinny just doesn't want to admit that the game had Mario origins from the start, so he asserts that that exec must be trolling.

That's the tinfoil hat shit I'm talking about.

I still love Skinny, but we all know he's wearing reflective headgear.

 

It’s true and I will stand on the hill, with my headgear, proclaiming it never had Mario origins. It got used for Mario in the end but that wasn’t the plan

[PekoponTAS | 171]

31 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

I don’t think Mario USA is a fake Mario game I just don’t think it’s a SMB game in the original trilogy. It got promoted as that in NA by default.

That doesn't really mean anything though, as the series as a whole is classified as "Super Mario", of which all four original games, World, 64, Sunshine, Galaxy, and every other main entry is part of. "Bros." doesn't actually distinguish the games from the others in any way.

EDIT: Also looking through the history of this thread, it's nothing but trolling and arguing. How has this NOT been locked by now? All of these games are older than your parents were when you were born. This isn't an argument that needs seventeen pages.

Edited December 13, 2022 by PekoponTAS

[OptOut | 8,892]

Calling Super Mario Bros on the NES a trilogy is itself kinda meaningless. It's a trilogy in as far as there are three games, but in terms of continuity of story, I mean, there basically isn't a story is there? Metroid Prime is a trilogy, because each game takes place in a continuing storyline where each one leads off from the prior one. You can't really say that for Mario games, the storyline is too ambiguous, there's no true through-line there...

Mario 2 is a Mario game, because they put Mario in it. It's a Mario game because of marketing reasons, because video games are commercial products, first and foremost. If you are arguing why Mario 2 isn't Mario 2 on the basis of artistic and/or game design merits, there IS a nuanced argument to be had there, although ultimately I think the evidence is convincing that Mario 2 SHOULD be regarded as a true Mario game after examining the progression of its development.

Whatever way you slice it, arguing that Mario 2 isn't a Mario game is a loosing battle, but one that some people seem to enjoy loosing! 

[OptOut | 8,892]

28 minutes ago, PekoponTAS said:

EDIT: Also looking through the history of this thread, it's nothing but trolling and arguing. How has this NOT been locked by now? All of these games are older than your parents were when you were born. This isn't an argument that needs seventeen pages.

You're insane! This is a top contender for the GOLDEN GANONS thread of the year!!! 

[PekoponTAS | 171]

12 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Calling Super Mario Bros on the NES a trilogy is itself kinda meaningless.

Mostly because there are four games.

Edited December 13, 2022 by PekoponTAS

[OptOut | 8,892]

1 minute ago, PekoponTAS said:

Mostly because there are four games.

The word trilogy properly refers to three STORIES that are interconnected and continuous with each other... Even if there were only three games, which there are in the US NES library, they couldn't properly be considered a trilogy because the storyline is basically non-existant.

Of course, colloquially, people use the word trilogy to refer to three sequentially released products of the same branding, so yeah in that case you could call the Mario games on NES a trilogy. I would argue that JAPANESE Mario 1 2 3 have better claim to a sort of conceptual trilogy than the US versions, seeing as they were all planned, produced and released sequentially, whereas the US Mario 2 had a more complicated development cycle... But either way it's all semantics, it clearly doesn't MEAN anything, whether they are a trilogy or not.

My opinion is they are ALL valid Mario games, one way or another, and all valuable contributions to the franchise.

 

[AirVillain | 491]

5 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

@AirVillain @Link provided the information that suggests the prototype engine of the vertical gameplay that would eventually be used for doki, was originally developed with SMB in mind. Which I think is bs but who actually knows? I think it was originally a random project by Tanabe @Tulpa is a billionaire and knows that’s when you lose your personality, sense of humor and desire to have any fun and the angle tulpa uses that only five of us have a clue and care is a good joke too. How many views does the “smb2 is fake” YouTube video have? @PekoponTAS maybe it was local to me but Mario USA was always the “other one” as a child. I actually played the games out of order. The first Nintendo game I ever played was SMB/duck hunt (87’) then I got an action set in 88’ and smb3 the next Christmas. I didn’t play smb2 until after smb3 and I remember the first time I played it I thought “oh wow I wonder what 2 is like I bet it’s awesome!” I was excited at the option to pick a character but was soon disappointed with the gameplay. I never have liked the game. And like I said before I don’t remember getting a feeling from any of my friends that they liked it. It was always smb3 is the greatest to hell with that smb2 game. Same goes for zelda 2. It’s always been strange to me how people say they liked/like zelda 2 it was always the outcast in my local town/school. So when I found out later smb2 was a reskin it made sense to me. If the proto was intentionally created to be used with the Mario universe I don’t know. Tanabe’s says it was but he’s just said that recently and only because the idea smb2 is a fraud has been brought to his attention….. because five of us on this forum started a conspiracy theory and that was enough for it to be a relevant question to ask the employee of a billionaire game development company. 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/04/the-secret-history-of-super-mario-bros-2/

Is this the article? 

You just made a really important distinction. THE GAMEPLAY. If you play the games as you did.... 1, 3, 2... Of course 2 would seem vastly different because the gameplay IS so different.

For me, I played them chronologically. So 2 was a "little off" but we still liked it. But when we got 3 it was fucking MIND BLOWING and we were like "YEAH, now we're back to Mario business!!!"

Will elaborate below...

4 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Skinny asserts that the comment was made to troll retrogamers. That to me is absolutely insane, because why would those execs even care to cover up the origins of a 30+ year old game? I mean, really.  Skinny just doesn't want to admit that the game had Mario origins from the start, so he asserts that that exec must be trolling.

That's the tinfoil hat shit I'm talking about.

I still love Skinny, but we all know he's wearing reflective headgear.

 

Okay.... so here's my confusion. That link provided by Link.... does not suggest that Tanabe was creating the game to be Super Mario Bros. Quote: The prototype, worked up by SRD, a company that programmed many of Nintendo’s early games, was intended to show how a Mario-style game might work if the players climbed up platforms vertically instead of walking horizontally, said Tanabe..

Then later Miyamoto tells him to make it MORE Mario-like to make it better. 

So where's the conspiracy here???? Tanabe was making a game, "Mario-like" (because it was the biggest thing going at the time I'm sure?), it didn't work, Moiyamoto said "copy Mario more", then later they insrerted Mario characters. 

How does that translate to "had Mario origins"? That's like saying any game programmed by someone to be like SMB had "Mario origins". 

We're talking about a game being developed from the jump as Mario.

It clearly wasn't designed as such as is proof in the departure of gameplay from 1 & 3. 
 

2 hours ago, Link said:

The creator and owner of Mario says it's a real Mario game. Who the hell are you? You think Nintendo was gonna take a risk on destroying one of their two flagship franchises at the absolute height of their initial worldwide success by doing a "fake" thing with it? 

Are you gonna say like if Aerosmith puts out a blues album it's not a real Aerosmith abum? GTF outta here with this nonsense. Are both of you really so unaware of what was going on at the time?

Hey man... calm down. Perhaps the context/tone of my question didn't come across properly. Just having some fun here. Of course it's a Mario game, but it's obviously different in terms of gameplay... 

When I say "What constitutes a Mario game?" I am of course speaking in a completely unserious manner and with the intention of having fun and discussion.

For example... There's MANY different conversations that could come from the question: "What constitutes a Mario game?".

For this conversation, based on the fact that I was comparing SMB3 and SMW in terms of gameplay, then going with that logic, the GAMEPLAY of SMB2 brings into question it's validity as a "Mario game". 

If we are going to sit here and have a conversation about "Mario games" what games are we going to include? 

Mario's Time Machine? Mario Golf?  NO. When you say "Mario game" you're talking about a bad-ass platformer with awesome power-ups.

If we want to have a discussion about ALL MARIO GAMES EVER, then sure.... we could include SMB2, and it would be quite high on the list. 

But when we're talking about the OG Super Mario Bros. series.... in terms of GAMEPLAY, SMB2 just isn't in the same boat. And, it seems as though that would be because *checks notes it was not designed as a Mario game to begin with.
 

49 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Calling Super Mario Bros on the NES a trilogy is itself kinda meaningless. It's a trilogy in as far as there are three games, but in terms of continuity of story, I mean, there basically isn't a story is there? Metroid Prime is a trilogy, because each game takes place in a continuing storyline where each one leads off from the prior one. You can't really say that for Mario games, the storyline is too ambiguous, there's no true through-line there...

Mario 2 is a Mario game, because they put Mario in it. It's a Mario game because of marketing reasons, because video games are commercial products, first and foremost. If you are arguing why Mario 2 isn't Mario 2 on the basis of artistic and/or game design merits, there IS a nuanced argument to be had there, although ultimately I think the evidence is convincing that Mario 2 SHOULD be regarded as a true Mario game after examining the progression of its development.

Whatever way you slice it, arguing that Mario 2 isn't a Mario game is a loosing battle, but one that some people seem to enjoy loosing! 

You're right. It's all about how we define "Mario game". 

In this case, as the conversation was SMB3 vs SMW comparing them in terms of gameplay, I'm talking strictly about gameplay....

Which is where the obvious division comes with SMB2, as it's gameplay is a departure from 1 & 3. 

So I would definitely agree that SMB2 is unequivocally a "Mario game" in the general sense of the words... but I think where Skinny and I are "hating" on SMB2 is in terms of its gameplay and its departure from the other 2..... and if you REALLY REALLY love the other 2, then 2 can be weird... if you catch what I'm saying. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by AirVillain

[AirVillain | 491]

59 minutes ago, PekoponTAS said:

That doesn't really mean anything though, as the series as a whole is classified as "Super Mario", of which all four original games, World, 64, Sunshine, Galaxy, and every other main entry is part of. "Bros." doesn't actually distinguish the games from the others in any way.

EDIT: Also looking through the history of this thread, it's nothing but trolling and arguing. How has this NOT been locked by now? All of these games are older than your parents were when you were born. This isn't an argument that needs seventeen pages.

You're definitely correct that SMB2 is a "Super Mario" game. I think the major difference, as stated just above, is that SMB2 was a MAJOR departure in gameplay from 1 & 3. Thus ppl like Skinny/and me say things like "it's not part of the OG trilogy". 

In terms of gameplay 2 is different than 1 & 3.... can you understand that viewpoint? 

So when we're having a discussion about Mario games in terms of gameplay, of course the "validity" (in a completely superficial and "let's talk about shit on the internet" type way) of one of the games is going to come into question if it's different. 

Also.... there's been a ton of great conversation in this thread, with a few derails, but nothing that takes us away from the true heart of it which is comparing two awesome Mario games, why are you calling for it to be locked??? You're in here furthering the conversation. Just enjoy the ride!!! 

[OptOut | 8,892]

1 minute ago, AirVillain said:

You're definitely correct that SMB2 is a "Super Mario" game. I think the major difference, as stated just above, is that SMB2 was a MAJOR departure in gameplay from 1 & 3. Thus ppl like Skinny/and me say things like "it's not part of the OG trilogy". 

In terms of gameplay 2 is different than 1 & 3.... can you understand that viewpoint? 

So when we're having a discussion about Mario games in terms of gameplay, of course the "validity" (in a completely superficial and "let's talk about shit on the internet" type way) of one of the games is going to come into question if it's different. 

Also.... there's been a ton of great conversation in this thread, with a few derails, but nothing that takes us away from the true heart of it which is comparing two awesome Mario games, why are you calling for it to be locked??? You're in here furthering the conversation. Just enjoy the ride!!! 

Certainly Mario 2 is quite different from Mario 1, 3, World and so on. BUT, if you are using comparative analysis to assess whether or not it belongs, there are other games you can compare as well, which push Mario 2 FAR closer to 1 and 3 than just comparing the three by themselves.

Obviously, if we compare, say Mario 1, 2, 3 and the Legend of Zelda, you would group the three Mario's FAR closer. That seems silly, so why not compare, say, Zelda 2 to the Mario games, seeing as that is also a side-scroller... Well, again, I would say Mario 1, 2 and 3 are far closer to each other than Zelda 2. Again, you may say this is silly, and I agree, they are obviously different. Well, what about the Original Mario Bros? That game is DEFINITELY closer to the 3 Mario games than either Zelda game, both visually, thematically and in terms of the game design. However, I would STILL say Mario 1, 2 and 3 are all closer to each other than they are to OG Mario Bros.

So, as far as I am concerned, it's all a matter of perspective. Yes, Mario 2 is different, and compared IMMEDIATELY to 1, 3, World, you're going to see that. But, zoom out just a LITTLE further, and you will see how in many, many ways, the games are largely similar.

[PekoponTAS | 171]

27 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

Also.... there's been a ton of great conversation in this thread, with a few derails, but nothing that takes us away from the true heart of it which is comparing two awesome Mario games, why are you calling for it to be locked??? You're in here furthering the conversation. Just enjoy the ride!!! 

Yeah, sorry that I got a little overly intense there. I just noticed this thread for the first time via the front page side bar, and was into what was currently being said. Then I noticed that it had 17 pages, which kind of amazed me and frustrated me at the same time at how much people still argue over these games.

The classic Mario games were great and all, but I hardly ever go back and play them when the more modern ones exist. I'm much more likely to replay Mario Sunshine, Mario Galaxy or Super Mario 3D World over any of the 2D ones. Mario as a series is one of the few that consistently gets better every time, so I just don't care about the old ones as much as I used to.

I'll let you guys handle the rest. Maybe I should back out before I make a bigger fool of myself. Keep fighting the good fight and having fun.

Edited December 13, 2022 by PekoponTAS

[OptOut | 8,892]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:32 PM, docile tapeworm said:

but super Mario USA is an adopted entry into the franchise. I used to say it’s not a real Mario game. And while I still believe it doesn’t have the same blood running through it. It’s still family. 

Just trying to slog my way though the whole thread, I think I left off around page 11 last time I flicked through, but I like this analogy...

I would say the family relations between the Mario games would be something like Mario 1 and Japanese Mario 2 are twins, Mario 3 and Mario World are full blood brothers, and Mario 2 USA is a half-brother from that time Mom got a little TOO merry with Uncle Frank over the Xmas sherry...  

[Link | 2,743]

7 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

 

@Link So your idea of why I think Mario USA and zelda 2 suck is because I missed the hype? I can see that. Mario USA never had a chance with me because of the order I was introduced to it. In my eyes SMB was mind blowing and smb3 was the natural progression, mario USA was a different game. The hype train definitely would have made my experience and initial feelings towards the two games different.

 

It wasn't empty hype, man. We went bonkers because it was a great game. Head and shoulders above its predecessor, great expansion of the franchise. If you think that's just "hype" then the same applies to SMB3. SMB2j was an incremental step, using the same existing engine, feels like a remix album more than something new. Hence "The Lost Levels". Not the drastic transformation that we came to expect of Nintendo sequels. 

7 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

*shrugs* Aerosmith sucks and that was a poor analogy with the blues album idea.

Whatever you like, are you gonna say that no band you like ever had a departure from their usual style? Or author? Comic book? Director? or if they did you don't consider it a "real" [insert name] song/ album/ book/ issue/ movie/ wtf ever? 

6 hours ago, OptOut said:

The word trilogy properly refers to three STORIES that are interconnected and continuous with each other...

So this is interesting. Let me make a case here. SMB2 is a dream. SMB3 is a play - (curtains rise at the beginning, blocks are bolted to the background and you can go behind them, etc). Both undermine our expectations of reality.

And I don't think 2 gets enough credit for introducing doors. And increasing the use of vines, present in both 1 & 3.

 

6 hours ago, AirVillain said:

We're talking about a game being developed from the jump as Mario.

It clearly wasn't designed as such as is proof in the departure of gameplay from 1 & 3. 

You are talking about that. Rather unnecessarily imo. Many early video games were designed as experimental engines first, with IP being created or applied later. In fact I'd say that's why Mario appears all over the place. Kart, Golf, Party, Smash, Donkey Kong 1... Nintendo makes a new mode of play, and decides Mario is the best face to put on it. (Obviously not always, and that's how we get Kid Icarus or Pikmin.) Their early steps included this development model in their flagship character. From DK, to Mario Bros., to SMB... 

Speaking of Donkey Kong: That was originally supposed to be a Popeye game! So is the entire Donkey Kong franchise... "not real" ? Is Jumpman aka Mario really Popeye the Sailor Man this whole time? 

Please read Game Over by David Sheff. 

6 hours ago, AirVillain said:

Hey man... calm down. Perhaps the context/tone of my question didn't come across properly. Just having some fun here.

By all means. Don't let my cursing make you think I'm literally upset or angry. 

I'm just saying...

 

 

you're wrong  

6 hours ago, AirVillain said:

You're definitely correct that SMB2 is a "Super Mario" game. I think the major difference, as stated just above, is that SMB2 was a MAJOR departure in gameplay from 1 & 3. Thus ppl like Skinny/and me say things like "it's not part of the OG trilogy". 

In terms of gameplay 2 is different than 1 & 3.... can you understand that viewpoint? 

Alliw me to point again to Zelda 2: drastically different from 1 & 3. Not a real Zelda game???

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

8 hours ago, PekoponTAS said:

That doesn't really mean anything though, as the series as a whole is classified as "Super Mario", of which all four original games, World, 64, Sunshine, Galaxy, and every other main entry is part of. "Bros." doesn't actually distinguish the games from the others in any way.

EDIT: Also looking through the history of this thread, it's nothing but trolling and arguing. How has this NOT been locked by now? All of these games are older than your parents were when you were born. This isn't an argument that needs seventeen pages.

Ya I guess you’re right “bros.” Only differentiates the games in terms of gameplay for all except smw. 

@OptOut ya I guess I used the term trilogy wrong? What I meant is SMB smb2 and smb3 are the real super mario bros. Games on the nes. Mario USA belongs with the super mario world and super mario 64 games. 
 

@Link no doubt a shit ton of us went bunkers for Mario USA. It’s a great game to some people. The first time I played it as a kid it lasted the weekend. I didn’t own it so after that I never cared to play it. I may have played it a handful of times through the years after, never getting very far in the game. I only played through the entire game because of the weekly contest. 
 

as far as the band thing I just meant it would be more like if they release a blues album in Japan. Changed the cover art and released it as a rock album in the USA. It’s still an Aerosmith album but it’s not a rock album it’s a blues album they titled as rock for a different audience. And that audience going all in that it is in fact a rock album because Aerosmith said it was. 
that’s what Mario USA fans look like in my eyes. They are listing to a blues album, dancing to it like a rock album and calling people crazy for saying “hey you know that’s actually a blues album right?”. Mario USA fans bent when others point out it’s not a real Mario game is a force like no other. It’s impressive. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

12 hours ago, Tulpa said:

I still love Skinny, but we all know he's wearing reflective headgear.

 

@docile tapeworm has been known to wear a silver tiara at times. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@PekoponTAS I think the fact the thread is 17 pages long means if Mario USA wasn’t a fake Mario game this thread wouldn’t be. I’m not saying that means Mario USA is without a doubt a fake Mario game but there is an argument for it.

I think it’s a fake Mario game.

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

6 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

@docile tapeworm has been known to wear a silver tiara at times. 

I been trying to find time to make a fool of myself with that thing again. I wanted to do it for life force but I just couldn’t find the time. I’ll have to make a shed outside so I can yell and scream nonsense without waking up the family or them walking into a video.

Edited December 13, 2022 by docile tapeworm

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

Just now, docile tapeworm said:

I been trying to find time to make a fool of myself with that thing again. I wanted to do it for life force but I just couldn’t find the time. I’ll have to make a shed outside so I can yell and scream nonsense without waking up the family or them walking into a video.

I guess you deleted that video off of your Youtube page with you wearing your tiara and giant sunglasses while playing Excitebike and ranting about me for some reason. That was some wild stuff.

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

2 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I guess you deleted that video off of your Youtube page with you wearing your tiara and giant sunglasses while playing Excitebike and ranting about me for some reason. That was some wild stuff.

Ya I was like “this needs to be a channel for 1cc or really good runs only” I hope I still have that video on a sd card somewhere it was awesome.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

Just now, docile tapeworm said:

Ya I was like “this needs to be a channel for 1cc or really good runs only” I hope I still have that video on a sd card somewhere it was awesome.

Videos of you playing games wearing your sunglasses and tiara while ranting about nonsense might make your channel more popular! 

[twiztor | 855]

11 hours ago, Link said:

Are you gonna say like if Aerosmith puts out a blues album it's not a real Aerosmith abum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honkin'_on_Bobo

[JamesRobot | 5,841]

16 hours ago, MegaMan52 said:

 

Hold up.  I'm just finding out about this secret room after 30+ years.  

 

[OptOut | 8,892]

1 hour ago, docile tapeworm said:

@PekoponTAS I think the fact the thread is 17 pages long means if Mario USA wasn’t a fake Mario game this thread wouldn’t be. I’m not saying that means Mario USA is without a doubt a fake Mario game but there is an argument for it.

I think it’s a fake Mario game.

Geez, this mutt-fucker REALLY hates fuggin Mario 2 over here! 

[Tulpa | 3,537]

11 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

It’s true and I will stand on the hill, with my headgear, proclaiming it never had Mario origins.

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[Tulpa | 3,537]

10 hours ago, AirVillain said:

So where's the conspiracy here???? Tanabe was making a game, "Mario-like" (because it was the biggest thing going at the time I'm sure?), it didn't work, Moiyamoto said "copy Mario more", then later they insrerted Mario characters. 

How does that translate to "had Mario origins"? That's like saying any game programmed by someone to be like SMB had "Mario origins". 

That pretty much sounds like Mario origins, but we can agree to disagree on that.

But that's not Skinny's main argument.

His argument is whenever they bring this statement later, that the execs at Nintendo are trolling people.

Which is the part that is hamster-in-your-pants crazy.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Tulpa

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

23 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Geez, this mutt-fucker REALLY hates fuggin Mario 2 over here! 

Whoa whoa whoa little buddy dont resort to insulting my sexual preference. That would hurt my feelings. But at least I’m not giddy to eat Nintendo’s lie like shit they served straight out of there ass.