SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

6 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

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You guys can throw all the tomatoes you want. I’m dodging them baby! Me and the irate gamer know exactly what super Mario USA is. A lie and ass of a game. It was a lie then and they are still a lying about it now. Keep on with your one little hang on that I said they were trolling. Before you lay your head on your pillow you justify how wrong you are about super Mario USA being a real Mario game and apologize to ole skinny boy so I’ll still give you a hug when the weight of it all is too much and your ready to admit you held on so long out a fear. Scared to admit one of your fondest child good memories was a lie. A lie you enjoyed. And it hurts to know you were played like that. I understand my friend. Bring it in. C’mon… skinny is here.

[AirVillain | 491]

10 hours ago, OptOut said:

Certainly Mario 2 is quite different from Mario 1, 3, World and so on. BUT, if you are using comparative analysis to assess whether or not it belongs, there are other games you can compare as well, which push Mario 2 FAR closer to 1 and 3 than just comparing the three by themselves.

Obviously, if we compare, say Mario 1, 2, 3 and the Legend of Zelda, you would group the three Mario's FAR closer. That seems silly, so why not compare, say, Zelda 2 to the Mario games, seeing as that is also a side-scroller... Well, again, I would say Mario 1, 2 and 3 are far closer to each other than Zelda 2. Again, you may say this is silly, and I agree, they are obviously different. Well, what about the Original Mario Bros? That game is DEFINITELY closer to the 3 Mario games than either Zelda game, both visually, thematically and in terms of the game design. However, I would STILL say Mario 1, 2 and 3 are all closer to each other than they are to OG Mario Bros.

So, as far as I am concerned, it's all a matter of perspective. Yes, Mario 2 is different, and compared IMMEDIATELY to 1, 3, World, you're going to see that. But, zoom out just a LITTLE further, and you will see how in many, many ways, the games are largely similar.

 

Haha, you're correct. It's all about perspective, and it's also about defining what we're talking about. In this case I think a lot of times, we are talking about different things. aka. "Mario Game" being judged based on gameplay vs. name vs. who created it, etc.

Your analogy below, while disturbing, is pretty accurate. 

 

10 hours ago, PekoponTAS said:

Yeah, sorry that I got a little overly intense there.

All good.    I get what you're saying with the new ones. I guess ive always clung onto SMB3, etc. because the sweet power-ups. I truly believe no new Mario 2D platformer has had as good power-ups since the Tanooki suit in SMB3. 
 

3 hours ago, Link said:

You are talking about that. Rather unnecessarily imo. Many early video games were designed as experimental engines first, with IP being created or applied later. In fact I'd say that's why Mario appears all over the place. Kart, Golf, Party, Smash, Donkey Kong 1... Nintendo makes a new mode of play, and decides Mario is the best face to put on it. (Obviously not always, and that's how we get Kid Icarus or Pikmin.) Their early steps included this development model in their flagship character. From DK, to Mario Bros., to SMB... 

Speaking of Donkey Kong: That was originally supposed to be a Popeye game! So is the entire Donkey Kong franchise... "not real" ? Is Jumpman aka Mario really Popeye the Sailor Man this whole time? 

Please read Game Over by David Sheff. 

By all means. Don't let my cursing make you think I'm literally upset or angry. 

I'm just saying...

 

 

you're wrong  

Alliw me to point again to Zelda 2: drastically different from 1 & 3. Not a real Zelda game???

I know I am talking about that. But it's because I'm trying to establish a baseline for our conversation.

Because as I said before, the conversation of "What constitutes a Mario game" could take MANY different directions. So in cases like this, it's best to define what we're talking about. 

TO ME, FOR THIS THREAD, IT'S ABOUT GAMEPLAY. That is, because the original thread is a comparison between SMB3 and SMW of desire to play..... the conversation of "What constitutes a Mario game" very much applies, but in this context I'm talking about GAMEPLAY. As in, not branding, not distribution, not who owned it... STRICTLY GAMEPLAY/PRODUCTION. 

So again, I understand your example, but in this case being produced "from the beginning" to be a "Mario game" is VERY IMPORTANT in terms of gameplay because, as is evident from actually playing the game, SMB2 is different. Hence the conversation, and hence why people still to this day "don't consider it a "Mario" game". 

For the record, I am NOT one of those people. SMB2 is certainly a Mario game in the general context of the world and Mario games existing, the same as Mario's Time machine is a Mario Game... but in the context of comparing the "Bros" series, I don't really include it because it's not the same. 

See what I'm saying?

 

34 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

That pretty much sounds like Mario origins, but that's not Skinny's argument.

His argument is whenever they bring this statement later, that the execs at Nintendo are trolling people.

Which is hamster-in-your-pants crazy.

@docile tapeworm Where are these execs saying this Skinny, I need some quotes or video links or something!? Where are these mofo's dropping these nuggets? ...is a little wild.... 



Back to it.....

To me "Mario origins" would be someone working FOR Nintendo with the the sole purpose of creating a Mario game. And at that time, that meant working with Miyamoto/his team ON a Mario game. Not getting his input and having him tell you to make it more like Mario.

Buddy wasn't on the dev. team yet, he just came up with the shit on his own. Again, it's like saying anyone who was creating any sort of platformer that was "mario like" had "Mario origins". 

While this Tanabe fellow was closely linked to Nintendo, doesn't seem like this game was developed from the jump to be a Mario game....?

If so, don't you think if Doki Doki panic was dev as a Mario Game to begin with there'd be mystery blocks, koopas (not just a shell here or there), and various other things somewhere? 

The fact that 1 and 3 are so similar and 2 is the outlier is a pretty good indication it wasn't developed in the same way?

Also, why are we disputing 'ol Normy the Gaming Historian has come up with? The guy has a degree in History from an actual university and probably did more research for that video than any of us will ever do.

I'm not all over YouTuber nards or anything, as you all might know, but This Gaming Historian guy seems to know his stuff. 

Regarding the music example. It's not a good example because the band Aerosmith is still making the music (also, that was a cover album so they didn't write the music). This would be like someone else (Tanabe) doing an album of Aerosmith songs (copying SMB). So is THAT an Aerosmith record? No, no it's not. 

So there we have it.... SMB2 is basically and expanded edition of a "cover album" of SMB. That's the analogy.

Edited December 13, 2022 by AirVillain

[Tulpa | 3,537]

Like I said, we can agree to disagree on the particulars.

Its the "they're trolling us 30 years later" that's the out there in the weeds with the Illuminati and fluorine mind control water theories.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

33 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

You guys can throw all the tomatoes you want. I’m dodging them baby! Me and the irate gamer know exactly what super Mario USA is. A lie and ass of a game. It was a lie then and they are still a lying about it now. Keep on with your one little hang on that I said they were trolling. Before you lay your head on your pillow you justify how wrong you are about super Mario USA being a real Mario game and apologize to ole skinny boy so I’ll still give you a hug when the weight of it all is too much and your ready to admit you held on so long out a fear. Scared to admit one of your fondest child good memories was a lie. A lie you enjoyed. And it hurts to know you were played like that. I understand my friend. Bring it in. C’mon… skinny is here.

Irate Gamer? Really?

Still luv ya!

 

 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

32 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Like I said, we can agree to disagree on the particulars.

Its the "they're trolling us 30 years later" that's the out there in the weeds with the Illuminati and fluorine mind control water theories.

So all of my ideas have been combated.

they didn’t really lie about super Mario USA from the beginning. As someone has provided evidence of it being documented in a magazine. So the knowledge was out there. Being an American If you found that info would be slim to none and even if you did it would essentially have to spread by word of mouth after the initial findings.

when asked about its origins the creator/creators(?) have said it was always intended to be a Mario game. One way or the other. 
 

im with @AirVillain they had Tanabe. He created something on his own. It sat until doki. Then they turned doki into super Mario USA. Nintendo was going to release smb2 to the North Americans until Howard said wth?

so imo it’s a fake Mario game. And the irate gamer had the scoop! 
 

air you will have to search the thread. I’ll try to as well for the references…..

[mbd39 | 2,030]

SMB2J feels like a Kaizo romhack of SMB1. SMB2 USA is like a romhack of Doki Doki Panic. Either way it's like a romhack, but the romhack of Doki Doki Panic is the better game.

 

[Link | 2,743]

4 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

@PekoponTAS I think the fact the thread is 17 pages long means if Mario USA wasn’t a fake Mario game this thr

It's 18 pages because every time it drops off the front index, AirVillain bumps it 3-5 weeks later.

 

3 hours ago, twiztor said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honkin'_on_Bobo

Correct. That was not supposed to be a hypothetical scenario.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 hours ago, OptOut said:

Geez, this mutt-fucker REALLY hates fuggin Mario 2 over here! 

Go ahead @docile tapeworm

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

2 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

You guys can throw all the tomatoes you want. I’m dodging them baby! Me and the irate gamer know exactly what super Mario USA is. A lie and ass of a game. It was a lie then and they are still a lying about it now. Keep on with your one little hang on that I said they were trolling. Before you lay your head on your pillow you justify how wrong you are about super Mario USA being a real Mario game and apologize to ole skinny boy so I’ll still give you a hug when the weight of it all is too much and your ready to admit you held on so long out a fear. Scared to admit one of your fondest child good memories was a lie. A lie you enjoyed. And it hurts to know you were played like that. I understand my friend. Bring it in. C’mon… skinny is here.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

Like I said, we can agree to disagree on the particulars.

Its the "they're trolling us 30 years later" that's the out there in the weeds with the Illuminati and fluorine mind control water theories.

I'm waiting for skinny to make a case for the Illuminati being involved. 

[Link | 2,743]

2 hours ago, AirVillain said:

See what I'm saying?

I guess so, but SMB1 wasn't a Mario game from day one either. So what is that?

And making the sequel very different was Nintendo's standard practice at the time. 

Who's to say that Mario 3 would have had carrying objects - a key gameplay mechanic - if Mario 2 had not brought that to the franchise? You? And what about the doors?

You are welcome to your opinion. I'd just be wary when the only one in agreement is somebody who's clearly off the deep end  

[Link | 2,743]

2 hours ago, AirVillain said:

Also, why are we disputing 'ol Normy the Gaming Historian has come up with? The guy has a degree in History from an actual university and probably did more research for that video than any of us will ever do.

I haven't gotten to watch that. I will after I get home tonight - what page is it on? 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

9 minutes ago, Link said:

 

You are welcome to your opinion. I'd just be wary when the only one in agreement is somebody who's clearly off the deep end  

Hey hey hey! Straw man attack!!! I’m not the only one. And mbd says they are both bs. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

16 minutes ago, Link said:

You are welcome to your opinion. I'd just be wary when the only one in agreement is somebody who's clearly off the deep end  

I agree too, but your statement is still accurate. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@Tulpa where is the reference of them being asked about it 30 years later?

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

6 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

I’m not the only one. And mbd says they are both bs. 

Saying that both versions are like ROM hacks was an interesting take.

[Link | 2,743]

8 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

Hey hey hey! Straw man attack!!! I’m not the only one. And mbd says they are both bs. 

That's not a strawman, it's an ad hominem (personal attack). A strawman is putting words in your mouth to misrepresent your argument so it can be knocked over, like "Skinny thinks Miyamoto devised a diabolical scheme in 1987 to make internet nerds fight 35 years later." Oh, wait, that's just an accurate summary. 

(THIS IS ALL IN GOOD FUN)

[Tulpa | 3,537]

17 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

@Tulpa where is the reference of them being asked about it 30 years later?

It was in the article.

[PekoponTAS | 171]

I think it's worth remembering that this wasn't uncommon back then, with games like Wario Blast, Blaster Master Boy, Final Fantasy Legend, Final Fantasy Adventure, and Double Dragon II GB all being rebranded from different series in Japan. The difference with Mario 2 is that the rebranded version became the more accepted version, where the original version was buried by its creator in favour of the rebranded version.

As far as I know, Super Mario Bros. 2 is the only case of this happening, which is why it's such a hot issue to some. It's an unusual circumstance that goes against the rules, so some people find it hard to just treat it as an exception to the rules.

Mario 2 unquestionably started as another game, and no amount of digging into the prototype's past will change what the end product was. Nobody should care if the game was meant for Mario in the building block stages of development, as the game unarguably released as a game that wasn't Mario. Yet due to the weird situation of its localization, and the unique end result of the localized version replacing the original and being accepted as part of the series it was localized into, it's a unique case that confuses a lot of people.

Mario 2 wasn't a Mario game at first, but once it was retooled and rebranded as one, it became one. While it was different from the others on the NES, that became easier to swallow as time went on due to the series' continued use of elements from the game. It was different, and it was something else at first, but its continued acceptance in the series legitimized it. It's only a "fake" Mario game in the context of the first few years of its existence, at a time when nobody really knew that it had even happened.

[PekoponTAS | 171]

Now in a separate and more snarky reply than the above serious response, I'll point out that this is the same site that treats Stadium Events and World Class Track Meet as different games. I'd think here of all places people could separate Doki Doki from Mario 2.

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@PekoponTAS I’m not confused or having a difficult time understanding. It’s a fake Mario game documented in facts. Plain and simple. I know that’s difficult for some to accept and it is confusing that nintendo would do something so low to its fans. But the truth is super Mario USA is a fraud.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

2 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

@PekoponTAS I’m not confused or having a difficult time understanding. It’s a fake Mario game documented in facts. Plain and simple. I know that’s difficult for some to accept and it is confusing that nintendo would do something so low to its fans. But the truth is super Mario USA is a fraud.

You know how defense attorneys are very reluctant to let their clients testify on the stand? This is why.

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

37 minutes ago, Link said:

That's not a strawman, it's an ad hominem (personal attack). A strawman is putting words in your mouth to misrepresent your argument so it can be knocked over, like "Skinny thinks Miyamoto devised a diabolical scheme in 1987 to make internet nerds fight 35 years later." Oh, wait, that's just an accurate summary. 

(THIS IS ALL IN GOOD FUN)

Ya I just heard/read that strawman thing somewhere and threw it in there blind hoping it would stick. Yes hopefully we all know this is in good fun I mean valid points are brought up on both sides but we all know at the end of the day it is a fake Mario game and the worst one ever made. 

[PekoponTAS | 171]

5 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

@PekoponTAS I’m not confused or having a difficult time understanding. It’s a fake Mario game documented in facts. Plain and simple. I know that’s difficult for some to accept and it is confusing that nintendo would do something so low to its fans. But the truth is super Mario USA is a fraud.

Well, at least we can all agree on one thing in this thread. That the Super Mario World cartoon is better than the Mario 3 cartoon.

*Climbs on horse, rides into sunset*

Edited December 13, 2022 by PekoponTAS