SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[Tanooki | 4,943]

1 hour ago, Link said:

So what does that make SMB3? 

A divergence in the time line like Doc browns chalkboard showed in back to the future 2 of course.

It is SMB3 because the development of that game is actually older than DDP, it started right after they finished the FDS game in 1986.  DDP was a Mario engine they had worked on, tabled, and came back to with the whole DDP story I'm not going to re-run through.  Both DDP/SMUSA and SMB3 were co-developed at Nintendo at the same time with large overlap in both teams, Miyamoto included, since it's his franchise.  While we got the game in early 1990, Nintendo screwed us some, they got the game back in 1988.

The same 1988 that gave us Mario Madness, our SMB2 (SMUSA) because we didn't have the FDS, know wtf DDP or Dream Machine was.  DDP finished under contract far faster than SMB3 did, but also was already developed as the engine existed and physics, so it got a nice coat of paint and music to fit and it releases far sooner.

Having enjoyed the development of both titles, Nintendo then saw how bad SMB2j really was for most players, so we know why we got our SMB2 to theirs.  But that enjoyment was so much, it then got the later release in 1992 in Japan just about when the FC was starting to wind down on yearly releases.  As a side note it's why Mario looks better in our 2 than 3, 3 started earlier so he has that more basic bland face, while SMB2 gave us the more rounded, colorized, and softer cartoon look which depressingly SMB3 lacks.

The thing to notice though is, SMB2 copium kids like to skip, SMB3 the co-developed title has the mechanics of DDP/SMUSA in there, and also enemy and mechanics overlaps.  It's a legit Mario game, end of story, it just took a round about way to be one in Japan because of the disk system title...that's it.  SMB2/USA is a legit Mario game, to debate it, is just to dig in and be obnoxious.

[Link | 2,721]

7 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

 

Good summary, but I know all that. I was just poking at DefaultGen's logic because if that wasn't a joke, I don't understand it. 

8 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

more rounded, colorized, and softer cartoon look which depressingly SMB3 lacks.

I actually like 3's flat style better. And I think they did it that way to support the stage set conceit.

Flat colors are great. They make tons of merchandise that looks like this, I want it in a SMB game.

[Tanooki | 4,943]

Oh I know what you were doing, it was more for the historical accuracy impaired here.

[AirVillain | 490]

Great conversation here.

 

On 11/18/2023 at 12:15 AM, Link said:

Yes, it was. Are you saying “programmed” and “released” are the same thing? Because it was indeed programmed as a Mario game before it was associated with any other property. 

This is genuinely confusing. I'm saying programmed, as in created on a computer, etc. to create a video game. (Of course SMB2 was released as a Mario game.)

It's pretty well documented that neither the vertical scrolling prototype, nor the promotional game made for the Dream factory deal were "Mario games". They were, as stated, a prototype and a game made with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS.

I don't understand how that's a Mario game.

Also, please see comments at the end re: Howard Philips. Had Howard Philips approved the sequel that was originally sent to him then the SMB2 that we know literally would not exist. That does not sound like it was "indeed programmed as a Mario game before it was associated with any other property." Literally the exact opposite.

 

On 11/18/2023 at 1:40 AM, docile tapeworm said:

@Link havent read that book.

My basis that the second entry doesn’t belong is because it’s doki doki panic with a reskin. Not that I simply don’t like it that way. 
 

im not talking about the character though. I’m talking about the game.

Super Mario USA not a real SMB game.

I like the discussion though. I have a hard time understanding the angle that sm usa is anything but a fraud of the SMB series. I’m trying to see it but seems like the answer is “because Nintendo said so” and that feels like a dangerous belief.

Doki Doki Panic re-skin. Exactly.

It's really not much more complicated than that. I'm also confused, please see above.

 

On 11/18/2023 at 2:57 PM, the_wizard_666 said:

SMB 2 is the only good Mario game imo.  When I first found out it was something completely different in Japan, I was like "oh, now it makes sense."  That said, design choices that debuted in the game have become staples of the series.  Toad as a character debuted in SMB 2 (previously he was a "mushroom retainer" that was basically just a background NPC).  And the fact that it took place outside of the Mushroom Kingdom allowed it to use a completely different roster of enemies, which I wish they did more often back then...Mario and his gang of heroes would travel the realms and help out wherever they went...that seems more compelling than "oh shit, here comes Bowser AGAIN..."  Like the dude should be dead after falling in that lake of lava, how does he keep popping up?

Genuinely can't tell if this is trolling or not, haha. But, I'm not afraid to admit you make great points about SMB2. Do those points make it the "only" good Mario game, I don't think so, but they definitely make it a good game.
 

On 11/18/2023 at 7:42 PM, Tanooki said:

The weird mix of gross arrogance and incompetence in airvillian is something I wonder is tempered a bit with medication acting like that.  I'd tell you what I think of you but I don't feel like getting another strike today, you're not worth it.

@Link don't bother, he's so high on his own warped sense of reality there's not point in arguing with s....d as that wins.

What's your deal, man? Haha... why are you taking personal shots at me for a discussion about video games??? I don't appreciate the assumptions about the incompetence and medication. Not super friendly things to say, haha.

Tell me what you think of me? Haha, go for it, bud! I'm a big boy, I can handle the truth.

We are talking about 30 year old video games here, man. No need to try to make it personal. Settle down.

Did you just bleep out "stupid" because you are calling me stupid but didn't want to be THAT rude? Well... you can call me stupid and insult my intelligence all you want, I don't need to justify my intelligence to you, especially when you are saying those things based on my discussion about VIDEO GAMES.

Again... settle that little tea kettle of yours, pal.

 

On 11/18/2023 at 8:26 PM, Link said:

idk, I think he likes to blow things out of proportion but he’s actually just exaggerating himself to kid around. Haha… jokes. 

That game is SO GOOD and people don’t even know.

Well fuck... what are we doing here? If we can't get riled up and have a little fun while we have a good discussion about the video games we know and love then what are we doing???

Not sure why people take this shit so seriously, haha. But my points all still stand, exaggerations/intensity or not.

 

On 11/19/2023 at 7:11 PM, the_wizard_666 said:

I was there when it came out.  Nobody ever complained about it being different.  Same as Zelda 2, Castlevania 2, et al.  Nobody gave two shits as long as the games were fun.  It wasn't until the late 90s when some "edgy" scrubs started blogging about shit that anything was ever mentioned about them being "bad" or "black sheep."  The only game I remember getting outright shit on by anyone was fucking Wayne Gretzky Hockey.  It didn't matter, we played the shit out of damn near everything.  Fuck, I remember renting X-Men multiple times with friends and enjoying it ffs.  So yeah, who gives a shit whether it was originally Mario or not.  It was served as Mario and all the kids fucking ate it up because to us, it WAS Mario.

Sorry, feeling a bit ranty today  

Nobody gives a shit about it, other than Tanooki apparently, in real life. Everything you just said was correct. Nobody I knew hated it as a kid, although we did recognize it was "different". But we still played the shit out of it. But, that was also because the nature of the system/situation. Most people only had a handful of games, so you played what you had. Anyways.... I certainly don't take this whole deal too seriously in the grand scheme of life.

But when we are on a forum discussing the very fabric of video game reality, then of course it matters "whether it was originally Mario or not". IT. MATTERS.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 3:26 PM, Koopa64 said:

SMB3 vs SMW is really just a comparison of quantity over quality.

(Yes, SMB3 is great, but sometimes more isn't better, it's just more)

And SMB2 for NES is a real Mario game, the joke got old 20 years ago.

I guess that's a matter of your opinion. I think SMB3 is better for a variety of reasons, least of which is quantity. In fact, it's mostly/all quality reasoning.

Regarding SMB2... it's not a "joke" and no one is trying to be an "edgy scrub" as someone said before.

SMB2 just started as a different game.... it's really not super complicated. Nintendo made a legitimate sequel in Japan, sent it to Howard Philips in USA and he rejected it.

Had Howard approved it there would have been no need to re-skin Doki Doki panic, and we would have gotten the same game Japan got and SMB2 as we know it wouldn't even exist.

Why isn't this being taken into consideration?

[fcgamer | 4,738]

16 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

Great conversation here.

 

This is genuinely confusing. I'm saying programmed, as in created on a computer, etc. to create a video game. (Of course SMB2 was released as a Mario game.)

It's pretty well documented that neither the vertical scrolling prototype, nor the promotional game made for the Dream factory deal were "Mario games". They were, as stated, a prototype and a game made with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS.

I don't understand how that's a Mario game.

Also, please see comments at the end re: Howard Philips. Had Howard Philips approved the sequel that was originally sent to him then the SMB2 that we know literally would not exist. That does not sound like it was "indeed programmed as a Mario game before it was associated with any other property." Literally the exact opposite.

 

Doki Doki Panic re-skin. Exactly.

It's really not much more complicated than that. I'm also confused, please see above.

 

Genuinely can't tell if this is trolling or not, haha. But, I'm not afraid to admit you make great points about SMB2. Do those points make it the "only" good Mario game, I don't think so, but they definitely make it a good game.
 

What's your deal, man? Haha... why are you taking personal shots at me for a discussion about video games??? I don't appreciate the assumptions about the incompetence and medication. Not super friendly things to say, haha.

Tell me what you think of me? Haha, go for it, bud! I'm a big boy, I can handle the truth.

We are talking about 30 year old video games here, man. No need to try to make it personal. Settle down.

Did you just bleep out "stupid" because you are calling me stupid but didn't want to be THAT rude? Well... you can call me stupid and insult my intelligence all you want, I don't need to justify my intelligence to you, especially when you are saying those things based on my discussion about VIDEO GAMES.

Again... settle that little tea kettle of yours, pal.

 

Well fuck... what are we doing here? If we can't get riled up and have a little fun while we have a good discussion about the video games we know and love then what are we doing???

Not sure why people take this shit so seriously, haha. But my points all still stand, exaggerations/intensity or not.

 

Nobody gives a shit about it, other than Tanooki apparently, in real life. Everything you just said was correct. Nobody I knew hated it as a kid, although we did recognize it was "different". But we still played the shit out of it. But, that was also because the nature of the system/situation. Most people only had a handful of games, so you played what you had. Anyways.... I certainly don't take this whole deal too seriously in the grand scheme of life.

But when we are on a forum discussing the very fabric of video game reality, then of course it matters "whether it was originally Mario or not". IT. MATTERS.

 

I guess that's a matter of your opinion. I think SMB3 is better for a variety of reasons, least of which is quantity. In fact, it's mostly/all quality reasoning.

Regarding SMB2... it's not a "joke" and no one is trying to be an "edgy scrub" as someone said before.

SMB2 just started as a different game.... it's really not super complicated. Nintendo made a legitimate sequel in Japan, sent it to Howard Philips in USA and he rejected it.

Had Howard approved it there would have been no need to re-skin Doki Doki panic, and we would have gotten the same game Japan got and SMB2 as we know it wouldn't even exist.

Why isn't this being taken into consideration?

Yup, totally agree on all points.

[Link | 2,721]

11 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

Well fuck... what are we doing here? If we can't get riled up and have a little fun while we have a good discussion about the video games we know and love then what are we doing???

I'm saying there's nothing wrong with it.

 

12 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

discussing the very fabric of video game reality, then of course it matters "whether it was originally Mario or not". IT. MATTERS.

13 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

neither the vertical scrolling prototype, nor the promotional game made for the Dream factory deal were "Mario games".

18 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

SMB2 just started as a different game....

Yes, it originally was. It was Mario before it was anything else. It became something else for the first time the public got to see it, I grant you that. But in the very beginning it was nothing at all, it was a programming experiment with no IP attached. As were all of the games Nintendo made in that period (psst: we wouldn't have Super Mario at all without the scrolling and acceleration groundwork laid by Excitebike.) And while I'll also concede it wasn't a finished and released Mario game first, it was a Mario project, before it was Doki Doki Panic.

[Link | 2,721]

Everything "started as a different game".

[Gentlegamer | 174]

Guise, if only Howard Philips had bad taste and approved Kaizo SMB, we could have a shitty SMB 2 in NA.

Thankfully, he has good taste, and we got the good SMB 2.

[Rhuno | 109]

Just popping in to agree with the premise that SMB 3 is a better game than SMW. It is known.

[Tanooki | 4,943]

Look when you want to act that way, double down when you're clearly wrong, then seem to take pleasure in it, any shots fired assumed or otherwise are just going to happen when enough is enough.  Because it's gaming, doesn't give a free pass to try and re-write history.

[Tulpa | 3,526]

18 hours ago, AirVillain said:

Well fuck... what are we doing here? If we can't get riled up and have a little fun while we have a good discussion about the video games we know and love then what are we doing???

 

[cj_robot | 545]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:33 PM, AirVillain said:

It's pretty well documented that neither the vertical scrolling prototype, nor the promotional game made for the Dream factory deal were "Mario games". They were, as stated, a prototype and a game made with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS.

I mean, if you're going to go down that rabbit hole, you'll find that there's a ton of games that aren't really the games you think they are.

I don't think there's really a point in keeping track of all the changes made during actual development of the game. All that matters is what the final product is.

Edited November 26, 2023 by cj_robot

[AirVillain | 490]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:49 PM, fcgamer said:

Yup, totally agree on all points.

 

 

On 11/24/2023 at 10:11 PM, Link said:

I'm saying there's nothing wrong with it.

 

Yes, it originally was. It was Mario before it was anything else. It became something else for the first time the public got to see it, I grant you that. But in the very beginning it was nothing at all, it was a programming experiment with no IP attached. As were all of the games Nintendo made in that period (psst: we wouldn't have Super Mario at all without the scrolling and acceleration groundwork laid by Excitebike.) And while I'll also concede it wasn't a finished and released Mario game first, it was a Mario project, before it was Doki Doki Panic.

Haha, you nailed it pretty good. I thought so, hence my reply, but the "haha, jokes" at the end made me think maybe you thought "nah, AV really is just a dick." Haha... But you get it.

The truth is that we know these games SO WELL and love the little intricacies of them, why NOT smash the discussions apart and REALLY break down the games and what we love about them? Or our histories with them? Or whether one "should be included" or other meaningless semantic arguments?

I find it very interesting... and fun.

Back to the discussion:

I understand what you're saying about games being programmed with no specific IP in mind.

Have you got any references for this: "it was a Mario project, before it was Doki Doki Panic."? Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious where it was stated before.

The previously supplied "deep dive"/youtube video showed the OG prototype, which was neat.... Somewhat of a different account as Gaming Historian does say that Kensuke Tanabe came up with that idea. But regardless, there's lots of good information in there I think we can trust here:

These are my major takeaways:

*Nintendo made Super Mario Bros 2. in Japan and released it for a new disk system, was the best selling game on that system, which they wanted to use going forward.

*A prototype that had gotten shelved because it wasn't fun enough, but later was used to make Doki Doki Panic (By the some of the Mario team, which they put in Mario references, and used game elements like side scrolling that made Mario fun to make it fun... which at one point Miyamoto thought it was too similar.) and released it.

*Nintendo wanted to release the sequel to Super Mario Bros in North America and sent the one they made for the disk system to Howard Philips. He turned down the game when he played it because it was too difficult/annoying/too similar.

*So, Nintendo of American "needed" a sequel for SMB, so they decided to "remake"/re-work a gamethat was already complete (not a new concept as pointed out) so they looked through their library and thought Doki Doki Panic would work. They sent it to Howard Philips with a note about switching the characters. He accepted and Nintendo in Japan re-made the game with Mario characters/references.

On 11/24/2023 at 10:12 PM, Link said:

Everything "started as a different game".

I mean... I get what you're saying... but in this case because a trilogy was created in Japan for Super Mario Bros, which those players played and loved, and the second one is different in North America speaks for itself.

Super Mario Bros 3 was released in Japan like 2 weeks after our SMB2 was released in North America.

And SMB3 was a continuation of which game...? Super Mario Bros (incl 2 in Japan)? Or SMB2USA as we know it? 

 

On 11/25/2023 at 12:12 AM, Tanooki said:

Look when you want to act that way, double down when you're clearly wrong, then seem to take pleasure in it, any shots fired assumed or otherwise are just going to happen when enough is enough.  Because it's gaming, doesn't give a free pass to try and re-write history.

"Act that way", haha... Man you gotta take it easy a little bit and lighten up. You wanna justify any "shots fired", haha, go ahead. It's not that serious to me, but if you want to be a D-bag be my guest.

I'm just having a discussion. If you'd like to provide references to show where I'm "clearly wrong" then I'll gladly look at them. I like to learn. Nobody is re-writing history, we're discussing it:

 

We are simply discussing one of the greatest trilogy of games in history and how they came to be.
 

17 hours ago, Tulpa said:

 

Haha, I legitimately LOL'd when I saw this. Haha, nailed it!!

 

4 hours ago, cj_robot said:

I mean, if you're going to go down that rabbit hole, you'll find that there's a ton of games that aren't really the games you think they are.

I don't think there's really a point in keeping track of all the changes made during actual development of the game. All that matters is what the final product is.

I get it and it's a very valid point. Please see above re: SMB2 USA development.

You're right, and in a lot of ways I agree. The final product of SMB (USA) is really fun. When I feel like playing SMB2, I don't give a shit who made it, or why. It's a good game.

But in the context of a conversation like this, as stated above, I think we can break it down further and "go down the rabbit hole" so to speak and discuss the game on a deeper level.
 

[Tanooki | 4,943]

You're not having just a discussion, you're a troll, and you're so high on your alternate reality there's really no point in arguing with you.  Great you found a US based media spin of history to suit the narrative, despite what Nintendo has cleared up over time, glad that pacifies your mental conditions.

Obviously Nintendo would cover their own tracks in the US because they buried the FDS game because how nasty it was and out of date by the time it would have arrived here.  The makers have stated what's what in interviews long after Mario Mania was published, keeping that cozy narrative of 'The Lost Levels' with their frehs All-Stars release. Guide from the mid/early 90s, interviews from the 00s-10s that clarified the background, really doesn't help make your case.

My advice go find an old field, grab as much hay as you can and snuggle, because you seem to love grasping at straws.

[CT | 98]

I just checked in the "Super Mario Encyclopedia: The Official Guide to the First 30 Years" that was published in 2018.

It says that Super Mario USA/2 is "based on" Doki Doki Panic. So in other words, it inspired what we know as Super Mario 2.

In my opinion, SMB2 is a great Mario game. And the "official guide" explains how it came to be. I'll go with that and carry on.

 

[Link | 2,721]

8 hours ago, AirVillain said:

but the "haha, jokes" at the end made me think maybe you thought

No, no, that was a callback to something you often say. Meant to show that your vehemence is not genuinely so forceful. But I do think you're taking the devil's advocate 

 

8 hours ago, AirVillain said:

*So, Nintendo of American "needed" a sequel for SMB, so they decided to "remake"/re-work a gamethat was already complete (not a new concept as pointed out) so they looked through their library and thought Doki Doki Panic would work.

8 hours ago, AirVillain said:

Have you got any references for this: "it was a Mario project, before it was Doki Doki Panic."? Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious where it was stated before.

The prototype, worked up by SRD, a company that programmed many of Nintendo’s early games, was intended to show how a Mario-style game might work...
Miyamoto... suggested that Tanabe add in traditional side-scrolling gameplay and “make something a little bit more Mario-like.” 
reference        

The prototype was "a proof of concept for how a vertically scrolling Mario-like game could work"
Improve the prototype by adding Mario-like elements" and "make it more Mario-like"
THEN the original Fuji TV Special game was "a modified version of [SMB] that used its assets and replaced familiar sprites with celebrities" and... guess what? Doki Doki Panic was the next Fuji TV game. And it "was the perfect opportunity to revisit SRD's vertical platforming prototype" AND it "drew heavily on the first game" 

reference:

8 hours ago, AirVillain said:

 

Yeah, it's a direct sequel. To draw a Zelda analog, it's a sequel to a weird master quest and it's a different timeline, where the enemies in the first game all wore masks (lol)

Thanks for reposting that again. You let me know when you have some direct quotes to support what you're saying instead of "impressions that you got" or as I would say, "things that you think confirmed your bias". Keep in mind, the prototype was never discarded. It was just set aside for a bit. Early in the development of SMB1, there was an idea to have Mario ride a horse. They could not make it work (for technical reasons rather than quality reasons) but never forgot about that idea, and eventually they figured out how to do it and they used it. Except now, the horse was a dinosaur.
Also, in the "put-this-away-for-a-while-because-it's-a-good-idea-but-we're-not-yet-sure-of-the-best-way-to-implement-it-but-we-want-to" kind of way, an early design for the "prototype-that-became-Yume-Kōjō" included an idea for simultaneous multi-player where players could pick up and throw each other, not just objects and enemies. They couldn't make the technology required for that work at the time. But they did it later. Do you know where? 

Spoiler

 

8 hours ago, AirVillain said:

And SMB3 was a continuation of which game...? Super Mario Bros (incl 2 in Japan)? Or SMB2USA as we know it? 

Why does this matter? It's in a series. Which really doesn't do storyline continuations. They are typically standalone adventures. 

But where did the doors in 3 come from? The mini-games like roulette? Picking up and carrying and throwing objects? Bob-ombs? The player characters with different aspects that we see in 3D World or NSMB? Other than the black mushroom and, I guess the wind, SMB2j has fewer contributions to the Mario universe than 2USA does. I mean, if you're gonna revise these things in 2023 then let's also include influence on later games, rather than just the only one prior. 

Who cares if the first sequel in one market had a detour in its development. It's a legitimate entry to the franchise. Stop disrespecting it. Trust the process. And since you brought him up, recognize that the guidance of Howard Phillips was integral to the success of NOA.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Link
out of order

[AirVillain | 490]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:21 AM, Tanooki said:

You're not having just a discussion, you're a troll, and you're so high on your alternate reality there's really no point in arguing with you.  Great you found a US based media spin of history to suit the narrative, despite what Nintendo has cleared up over time, glad that pacifies your mental conditions.

Obviously Nintendo would cover their own tracks in the US because they buried the FDS game because how nasty it was and out of date by the time it would have arrived here.  The makers have stated what's what in interviews long after Mario Mania was published, keeping that cozy narrative of 'The Lost Levels' with their frehs All-Stars release. Guide from the mid/early 90s, interviews from the 00s-10s that clarified the background, really doesn't help make your case.

My advice go find an old field, grab as much hay as you can and snuggle, because you seem to love grasping at straws.

Haha, man.... You really gotta find a way to chill. You are taking this way too seriously.

Troll? I'd feel insulted if it wasn't funny. I have better things to do than sit here and try to get you riled up.

This IS a discussion, but if you want to argue and get all worked up, then so be it... Okay, if the makers have stated what's what in their interviews, please send the reference.

There's a few major reasons why I'm trying to understand "why" this game we know as SMB2 was different that the original sequel to SMB. The answers are replies to what Link has brought up. Read below if you'd like.

 

19 hours ago, Link said:

No, no, that was a callback to something you often say. Meant to show that your vehemence is not genuinely so forceful. But I do think you're taking the devil's advocate.

The prototype, worked up by SRD, a company that programmed many of Nintendo’s early games, was intended to show how a Mario-style game might work...
Miyamoto... suggested that Tanabe add in traditional side-scrolling gameplay and “make something a little bit more Mario-like.” 
reference        

The prototype was "a proof of concept for how a vertically scrolling Mario-like game could work"
Improve the prototype by adding Mario-like elements" and "make it more Mario-like"
THEN the original Fuji TV Special game was "a modified version of [SMB] that used its assets and replaced familiar sprites with celebrities" and... guess what? Doki Doki Panic was the next Fuji TV game. And it "was the perfect opportunity to revisit SRD's vertical platforming prototype" AND it "drew heavily on the first game" 

reference:

Yeah, it's a direct sequel. To draw a Zelda analog, it's a sequel to a weird master quest and it's a different timeline, where the enemies in the first game all wore masks (lol)

Thanks for reposting that again. You let me know when you have some direct quotes to support what you're saying instead of "impressions that you got" or as I would say, "things that you think confirmed your bias". Keep in mind, the prototype was never discarded. It was just set aside for a bit. Early in the development of SMB1, there was an idea to have Mario ride a horse. They could not make it work (for technical reasons rather than quality reasons) but never forgot about that idea, and eventually they figured out how to do it and they used it. Except now, the horse was a dinosaur.
Also, in the "put-this-away-for-a-while-because-it's-a-good-idea-but-we're-not-yet-sure-of-the-best-way-to-implement-it-but-we-want-to" kind of way, an early design for the "prototype-that-became-Yume-Kōjō" included an idea for simultaneous multi-player where players could pick up and throw each other, not just objects and enemies. They couldn't make the technology required for that work at the time. But they did it later. Do you know where? 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Why does this matter? It's in a series. Which really doesn't do storyline continuations. They are typically standalone adventures. 

But where did the doors in 3 come from? The mini-games like roulette? Picking up and carrying and throwing objects? Bob-ombs? The player characters with different aspects that we see in 3D World or NSMB? Other than the black mushroom and, I guess the wind, SMB2j has fewer contributions to the Mario universe than 2USA does. I mean, if you're gonna revise these things in 2023 then let's also include influence on later games, rather than just the only one prior. 

Who cares if the first sequel in one market had a detour in its development. It's a legitimate entry to the franchise. Stop disrespecting it. Trust the process. And since you brought him up, recognize that the guidance of Howard Phillips was integral to the success of NOA.

Ah yes... I thought "haha, jokes" seemed familiar.

You're correct to understand it means I'm not being THAT forceful/serious about it/other conversations here.

But in this case I'm not "being the devil's advocate." Please see the end for clarification and "what I mean."

To start, though.... If you're saying that "a proof of concept for how a vertically scrolling Mario-like game could work" is the same as "building a vertically scrolling Mario game to be released as the sequel for SMB", then I guess you are correct.

I think they are two different things. Yes, the prototype was created to show how a "Mario-style" game could work, but it wasn't being created to be the sequel for SMB, it was just a concept looking to capitalize on how fun the SMB style game was.... which, as acknowledged by everyone here, when Miyamoto saw the prototype he suggested to add more Mario elements to make it fun. The direction was NOT "make it into a Mario game so it can be the sequel to our hugely successful SMB game currently selling like gangbusters." because they already made a sequel...? For the Disk system.

So yeah... They needed a game for the Dream Factory and they had the prototype and added Mario elements (Because SMB was a really fun game and people loved it and Miyamoto directed them to use Mario gameplay to make it more fun) and created Doki Doki panic. Even references as you pointed out. Yes... Yes. So it was super easy decision for them to use Doki when they needed a different SMB sequel for the North American Market....

I understand what you're saying that games in a series can be their own adventures, and that's cool. But what I'm saying is, especially gameplay wise, SMB2 USA is certainly an outlier.

And we know now why the gameplay is not the same as SMB, the OG SMB2 from the Famicom Disk system, SMB3, and SMW. Even the "New" Super Mario Bros games on Wii/U don't have gameplay elements from SMB2USA. So it stands out when ONE game is different than every single other one. Even 1/4 if you just include NES/SNES. SMB2 USA stands out.

Yeah, they have characters from SMB2 USA that have stayed in the series. Because it had great characters.... because the "Mario team" came up with them and made the re-skin and Doki .

But it does bring up a good question. What are we even talking about here with SMB2? I'm not saying it's not a "legitimate entry in the the franchise" or "disrespecting it".

And I wouldn't die on a hill saying "SMB2 isn't a 'real' Mario game" or "It doesn't belong!!!" .... and I do respect it, as I've stated I thoroughly enjoy the game. And yes, Howard Phillips deserves much praise, ESPECIALLY for this decision. I don't like the OG SMB2 nearly as much as SMB2 USA. He was 100% correct in his review of the OG SMB sequel.

But the truth is that SMB2 USA was not the "true" sequel for SMB (as created and released by Nintendo) and without Howard Phillips it would never even exist.

It's not a bad thing.... It's just how it worked out because they made the actual sequel way too hard and without enough improvement on the previous game (Aka Thank you Howard Philips ).

[Link | 2,721]

9 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

especially gameplay wise, SMB2 USA is certainly an outlier.

And we know now why the gameplay is not the same as SMB, the OG SMB2 from the Famicom Disk system, SMB3, and SMW. Even the "New" Super Mario Bros games on Wii/U don't have gameplay elements from SMB2USA. So it stands out when ONE game is different than every single other one. Even 1/4 if you just include NES/SNES. SMB2 USA stands out.

See also: Zelda II

See also: original Evil Dead trilogy

 

12 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

What are we even talking about here with SMB2?

the truth is that SMB2 USA was not the "true" sequel for SMB

If that is the hill you're dying on, so be it. I disagree. Japan got one sequel and USA got a different sequel. So what? Both got both in the end; in fact, Japan's 2USA got its very own release, not on a compilation like Lost Levels was.  

[G-type | 2,499]

Troll 2 was originally called "Goblins". The US distributor renamed it Troll 2, because they owned the rights to Troll and it was easier to market a sequel to an existing IP.

[Link | 2,721]

18 minutes ago, G-type said:

Troll 2 was originally called "Goblins". The US distributor renamed it Troll 2, because they owned the rights to Troll and it was easier to market a sequel to an existing IP.

Did the Goblins script contain material originally written for a potential Troll sequel?

Did Troll 3 have any characters that were in Goblins?

[G-type | 2,499]

2 minutes ago, Link said:

Did the Goblins script contain material originally written for a potential Troll sequel?

Did Troll 3 have any characters that were in Goblins?

nope. Troll 2 was a completely unrelated movie.. The town in Troll 2 was even called "Nilbog" (Goblin spelled backward)

Troll 3... well actually there are 2 movies called Troll 3... neither is related in any way to the previous 2 Troll movies. The first Troll 3 was renamed from a movie called "The Crawlers" about killer plants and contains no Trolls (or Goblins). The other Troll 3 is more of a fantasy movie, renamed from a movie called "Quest for the mighty Sword" which also contains no trolls (although it does have a gnome sorcerer.)

[Reed Rothchild | 9,563]

And now we're in the wild west of Italian horror "sequels" 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

On 11/26/2023 at 9:21 AM, Tanooki said:

You're not having just a discussion, you're a troll, and you're so high on your alternate reality there's really no point in arguing with you.  Great you found a US based media spin of history to suit the narrative, despite what Nintendo has cleared up over time, glad that pacifies your mental conditions.

Obviously Nintendo would cover their own tracks in the US because they buried the FDS game because how nasty it was and out of date by the time it would have arrived here.  The makers have stated what's what in interviews long after Mario Mania was published, keeping that cozy narrative of 'The Lost Levels' with their frehs All-Stars release. Guide from the mid/early 90s, interviews from the 00s-10s that clarified the background, really doesn't help make your case.

My advice go find an old field, grab as much hay as you can and snuggle, because you seem to love grasping at straws.

Seriously, pot and the kettle much?  You're the only one I see trolling anyone.  There's a pretty civil discussion happening here, with fun information and interesting discourse all around.  And then there's you popping in with hostility toward those that disagree with you.  When your arguments are merely insults followed with fluff, you really don't have a credible argument.  Dude, I like you, and you're clearly a passionate dude.  But you really should think through your posts sometimes before hitting the reply button.  

On 11/24/2023 at 7:33 PM, AirVillain said:

Genuinely can't tell if this is trolling or not, haha. But, I'm not afraid to admit you make great points about SMB2. Do those points make it the "only" good Mario game, I don't think so, but they definitely make it a good game.

I'm not trolling, just stating an opinion.  One I've been pretty consistent with since I was a child.  I never liked Mario 1, and Mario 3 felt like a regression to me.  Always preferred games where I was free to explore at my leisure.  When the goal is just "go right" and they slap a time limit to restrict your ability to just wander around, that never appealed to me.  It's also why I always preferred Simon's Quest to the other Castlevania games.  It just lines up better with the type of games I enjoy playing, and the other two simply don't appeal to me at all.

 

Anyway, to the topic at hand, maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.  SMB2 ended with the "it was all a dream" trope.  As such, can we all agree that, had there been any more of a series to that point, the game would fit as a side story rather than a normal part of a series.  Kind of like all the Wizardry games in Japan that are similar enough to keep the title, but different enough to not actually get a number?  I dunno, it's just a thought.

[cj_robot | 545]

1 hour ago, G-type said:

Troll 2 was originally called "Goblins". The US distributor renamed it Troll 2, because they owned the rights to Troll and it was easier to market a sequel to an existing IP.

Yeah, there's tons of examples from the film industry. The script for Die Hard 2 was based on a standalone novel called "58 Minutes". One of the earlier Die Hard 2 scripts was rejected and turned into Speed 2 instead.

[Link | 2,721]

5 hours ago, G-type said:

neither is related in any way to the previous 2 Troll movies.

Wikipedia on Troll 3 (Quest for the Might Sword): "The film re-used some of the goblin masks from Troll 2."

 

4 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

SMB2 ended with the "it was all a dream" trope.  As such, can we all agree that, had there been any more of a series to that point, the game would fit as a side story rather than a normal part of a series. 

Exactly. I was thinking of dream episodes of shows, or Sunshine taking place in Delfino. Stuff can be different and still belong!