WATA Turnaround Times?

[Gloves | 11,779]

@RETRO - I can tell you how it differs. Wata states clearly on their site that all times are purely an estimate. Using their service, you sign a contract which is heavily weighted in their favor, legally speaking. You also are able to back out of the agreement and have them send your items back to you. It's not apples to apples as you proclaim. 

 

[retro.magnus | 136]

17 minutes ago, RH said:

@RETROif you get a Class action together, hit me up. I mean, I'm small potatoes but I submitted my one game (for a grand total of about $68) that was received December 2, last year. Estimated time was 6 months and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to see it til 2022, and even 2023 wouldn't surprise me at this rate.

I also admit my submission was just an experiment and my game was shelf candy, but still, I'm quite agitated. I know others have it far worse but I'll be one of the few to add his few bucks of value to the pile of complaints.

They still have a 12 game order I placed on 6/15/20. Lol. 

They haven't replied to any of my emails asking for any sort of update in the past 2 weeks. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by epiczail

[inasuma | 1,203]

1 hour ago, RETRO said:

I'm a lawyer. I used to represent corporate entities charged with felony criminal fraud for charging for a service in an amount greater than $50 that they knew in advance they could not complete. Some of the people I represented went to prison because they had done this more than *one* time. WATA knows its wait-times, and has not changed its website—meaning that it is collecting literally tens of thousands of dollars in payments, from *hundreds* of people, for an advertised service it has advance knowledge it can't offer. People paying money for 15- and 45-day turnarounds on the basis of representations made by WATA are getting their services completed in 3x or 4x that time not by chance or bad luck, but under circumstances WATA is aware of in advance. In my jurisdiction this is variously charged—I mean real people getting put into real custody—as Fraud or Theft By Deception (both at felony levels, with a punishment of 3.5-7 years in prison or 7.5-15 years in prison if the amount taken from a single victim is $1,000 or more). Additional evidence prosecutors would use in this case involves WATA's promised grading scale being routinely ignored and its products repeatedly being defective due to human hairs, dog hairs, scuff marks, unsightly bubbling, and other indications of negligence that confirm that it cannot professionally do the work it represents it can do and is paid to do. This latter evidence is probative but of course not itself criminal; it's merely evidence of intent and state of mind for other conduct—the misrepresentations on the website—that are likely criminal.

WATA has full control over its website and could change it at any time. I have literally—literally, friend—seen men handcuffed right in front of me to be taken off to prison for less than what WATA is doing. Men I liked. So please don't tell me I'm being dramatic. You don't understand how criminal fraud works, and frankly if sealed-and-graded resellers weren't making so much money once they *do* get their games back at least one would have called the police already.

I'm being melodramatically kind to WATA—in a massive under-reaction—by only criticizing them rather than publishing a legal analysis of what they're doing to an audience of millions on social media and PROOF. If I could speak to them now, I'd say, (a) you're welcome, (b) change your goddamned website before someone calls the Colorado Attorney General's office (or I guess, now, the California Attorney General's office). Of course, they're engaged in interstate commerce and are committing fraud as a premeditated course or scheme, so it would probably be a federal rather than state case. Keep in mind that people who give WATA thousands thinking they will receive a service in 45 days that they don't receive for over a year are not only losing the benefit of the money they handed over but (i) facing the chance their items will depreciate massively in value over that year, and (ii) even if they didn't lose money have been intentionally lied to by a corporate actor in order to separate them from their money. That is, however it makes you feel inside, a crime. If WATA didn't lie to consumers on its website—especially first-time customers who don't know better—those customers would go elsewhere, to one of the seven other grading houses that could do the work. WATA knows this, which is why its lies are intentional. How long is it before someone from P1 or IGS or RGS or RAS or CGC tries to reports WATA to law enforcement? It'd be a slimy move, but this is a slimy business.

And Karl Jobst is right that some of WATA's other conduct may be considered commercial fraud at the institutional level—he's provided some of the relevant statutes on YouTube—so I'm sure those allegations would accompany any complaint to law enforcement. WATA is skating on unbearably thin ice and the only reason they're getting away with it is that their victims are more motivated by money than justice.

S.

Didn't realize you were a lawyer I definitely see what you're saying though. I suppose I wasn't considering turnaround as being part of the product, but in a way it kind of is. Thanks for elaborating. 

Also, sorry if I sounded a wee bit terse there. I have a default skepticism of complaints about grading turnarounds right now because basically every major grading service, from cards to toys, is backed up for months. But it is a problem how the turnaround times are so inaccurate.

[Gulag Joe | 582]

1 hour ago, RETRO said:

I'm a lawyer.... Some of the people I represented went to prison  

You had me at

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

On 10/27/2021 at 7:30 AM, dr.robbie said:

Wow, glad I read through some of this thread. I was thinking about submitting a handful of games to VGA, but it looks like the wait is indefinite currently. 

Sorry for not seeing this sooner.

As we speak, CGA, Inc. (AFA, VGA, etc.) is, at this time, has kept all updates on their own delays. With the same being said about CAS, but I have not looked at any updates they have to offer. In my case, I always aim to use their Archival services, along with their "Standard Grading" option when it comes to AFA. Which itself is going to be a financial hurdle since I have around 10+ figures packed away with another 10+ preordered for the next few months. 

The VGA branch, however, they still have their Premium and Archival services open. Not cheap if you are on a budget, like I am, but are guaranteed to be shipped back within their estimated timeframe once it clears their current processing time. Meaning that those games will be shipped back between 3 to 3 1/2 months, with the first 2 months being to their processing time.

Hence why I am making the mistake choice by expanding on what portions of the Star Wars franchise that I want to collect instead of sending them anything while they have said delays. (Which, thankfully, I might be caught up on.)

[tidaldreams | 654]

2 hours ago, RETRO said:

I'm a lawyer.

*snip*

S.

Oh now it makes sense why all your posts are TL;DR...

J/k keep 'em coming, I always read them... eventually.

[Seth | 167]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

@RETRO - I can tell you how it differs. Wata states clearly on their site that all times are purely an estimate. Using their service, you sign a contract which is heavily weighted in their favor, legally speaking. You also are able to back out of the agreement and have them send your items back to you. It's not apples to apples as you proclaim. 

 

Don't quit your day job, unless it's to go to law school.

You can't supply a customer paying you hundreds of dollars with an 18-day estimate for contract work when you have been running year-plus delays for over a year and half-year delays even on your fastest tier (for which you charge literally hundreds of dollars). Nor can you goose your pitch with language like "when you’re losing sleep over [needing your game graded, pick this option]" when you have repeatedly put in private correspondence that you know that service option is actually going to take you months to complete. This is intentional deception for the purpose of acquiring funds from a victim; it has been repeatedly called to WATA's attention via BBB complaints and customer feedback; they have already shown that they know how to update their website regarding turnaround times but have refused to do so in the comprehensive and transparent way the law would require. In the meantime, its president has repeatedly gone on public airwaves to offer fraudulent appraisals of high-value items by individuals whose possessions commercial regulations prohibit him from assessing. And I'm not even getting into the "dentist sale"—which occurred in Denver, at WATA's offices, if you can believe it—or everything with Halperin and Heritage. So if you're saying there's something in the fine print at WATA that permits these commercial misrepresentations, cite it verbatim rather than with vague hand-waving.

Given how many people have come to this site to say that they cannot get in touch with WATA customer service by whatever means, I find it a bit insulting, honestly, that on occasion folks here implicitly call these possible fraud victims liars by saying how easy it is to get your games back from WATA or get an update on your situation. Either all these WATA customers have decided to come to this board just to lie about their experience with WATA for some unknown reason or WATA customer service really is non-existent—they don't answer their phone, they send stock emails when they respond at all—and it is not okay to offer the theoretical, wholly unproven solution of "asking for your games back" (which still puts you out the opportunity cost of being able to dispose of those items during the period of time WATA was holding the game, not to mention non-refunded shipping costs, the risk of wear to the game in transit, and on and on).

Edited November 1, 2021 by RETRO

[Seth | 167]

8 minutes ago, tidaldreams said:

Oh now it makes sense why all your posts are TL;DR...

J/k keep 'em coming, I always read them... eventually.

Cheers.

[Gloves | 11,779]

19 minutes ago, RETRO said:

Don't quit your day job, unless it's to go to law school.

You can't supply a customer paying you hundreds of dollars with an 18-day estimate for contract work when you have been running year-plus delays for over a year and half-year delays even on your fastest tier (for which you charge literally hundreds of dollars). Nor can you goose your pitch with language like "when you’re losing sleep over [needing your game graded, pick this option]" when you have repeatedly put in private correspondence that you know that service option is actually going to take you months to complete. This is intentional deception for the purpose of acquiring funds from a victim; it has been repeatedly called to WATA's attention via BBB complaints and customer feedback; they have already shown that they know how to update their website regarding turnaround times but have refused to do so in the comprehensive and transparent way the law would require. In the meantime, its president has repeatedly gone on public airwaves to offer fraudulent appraisals of high-value items by individuals whose possessions commercial regulations prohibit him from assessing. And I'm not even getting into the "dentist sale"—which occurred in Denver, at WATA's offices, if you can believe it—or everything with Halperin and Heritage. So if you're saying there's something in the fine print at WATA that permits these commercial misrepresentations, cite it verbatim rather than with vague hand-waving.

Given how many people have come to this site to say that they cannot get in touch with WATA customer service by whatever means, I find it a bit insulting, honestly, that on occasion folks here implicitly call these possible fraud victims liars by saying how easy it is to get your games back from WATA or get an update on your situation. Either all these WATA customers have decided to come to this board just to lie about their experience with WATA for some unknown reason or WATA customer service really is non-existent—they don't answer their phone, they send stock emails when they respond at all—and it is not okay to offer the theoretical, wholly unproven solution of "asking for your games back" (which still puts you out the opportunity cost of being able to dispose of those items during the period of time WATA was holding the game, not to mention non-refunded shipping costs, the risk of wear to the game in transit, and on and on).

Let me make sure I'm clear:

1. I have no horse in the game grading game, outside of an honest drive to protect consumers
   1. A big part of that is supplying a free means to discuss these issues, via this forum
2. My statement was written according to the words of a practicing lawyer; I make no claims to personal knowledge of the law, especially not in a foreign country (I am Canadian), however I have spoken with multiple lawyers to get their takes on the situation
3. I'm in no way condoning Watas behavior, nor attempting to give them anything resembling a pass; I am simply stating facts - you asked how the situations differ, and I provided the facts. Whether the arguments hold water in court is not for me to say, nor did I claim that it was; you asked how the situations differ and I provided a response
4. You're perfectly welcome to disagree or argue with any points I make, by all means, I welcome criticism and am open to altering my views
   1. That said, I'd say you and I are on basically the same page; I fear that you may be taking my pointing out factual differences (per your request) as being me arguing with you, which was not my intent

[Seth | 167]

15 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Let me make sure I'm clear:

1. I have no horse in the game grading game, outside of an honest drive to protect consumers
   1. A big part of that is supplying a free means to discuss these issues, via this forum
2. My statement was written according to the words of a practicing lawyer; I make no claims to personal knowledge of the law, especially not in a foreign country (I am Canadian), however I have spoken with multiple lawyers to get their takes on the situation
3. I'm in no way condoning Watas behavior, nor attempting to give them anything resembling a pass; I am simply stating facts - you asked how the situations differ, and I provided the facts. Whether the arguments hold water in court is not for me to say, nor did I claim that it was; you asked how the situations differ and I provided a response
4. You're perfectly welcome to disagree or argue with any points I make, by all means, I welcome criticism and am open to altering my views
   1. That said, I'd say you and I are on basically the same page; I fear that you may be taking my pointing out factual differences (per your request) as being me arguing with you, which was not my intent

That's all fair. I appreciate the clarification. I disagree with whomever you consulted with, but it's also possible that I've simply made more of a study of WATA's practices, as I've been doing investigative journalism re: the company for months now.

I do not think WATA has covered itself legally; legally speaking it is skating by for the moment because none of its customers feel sufficiently harmed to stand up for themselves (a lot of which has to do with how much profit these customers are making once they do get their games back).

WATA should be concerned that some day those circumstances will change.

For now, their best bet is to always have the WATA website reflect current wait-times, like those emergency-room billboards many states have that are constantly updated to tell you the wait-times for a given emergency room (I don't know if other states have these, but mine does). WATA is earning enough income to have a webmaster who can update their estimates weekly if not daily. Of course, they also have enough income to have a customer service department that answers its phone, a shipping department that returns submitted games immediately with a full refund and shipping costs once a published turnaround estimate has been exceeded by (say) 2X, and a legal department that can ensure not just the fine print but the point-of-sale page at the WATA website unambiguously says everything it needs to say to people being asked to pony up hundreds of dollars.

And in the meantime, PSA could do more than simply demote Deniz Kahn from "CEO and president" to president, it could fire him outright—along with Mark Haspel—for grossly unethical conduct. Then it could amend all its SEC filings to properly reflect all investors; release the scanning app (that Kahn said would include population report data) it promised all its buyers it would release three years ago (WATA gained hundreds of lucrative customers off its case "matrix" technology, though it had no intention of using that feature as it publicly committed to doing in 2018); never grade another game for an investor (let alone an executive like Mark Haspel); and then hire enough graders and handlers to stop inserting human hair, dog hair, scuffs, fruit flies, and plastic bubbles into products it is charging hundreds of dollars for.

{Photographs below from a single copy of The Lone Ranger [NES] now up for sale on eBay for $2,000. Quite the display piece!}

[OptOut | 8,884]

2 hours ago, RETRO said:

@Gloves @CasualCart where's that goddamn VOMIT react!!! 

[inasuma | 1,203]

16 hours ago, RETRO said:

it could fire him outright—along with Mark Haspel—for grossly unethical conduct.

i guess it's neither here nor there but mark was bought out during wata's acquisition by collector's universe. that's my understanding at least.

[scooby | 12]

Can someone find a lawyer who is actually willing to put a class action lawsuit together rather than claim to be an investigative journalist.

[AnimalHouse | 117]

On 11/1/2021 at 8:06 PM, RETRO said:

That's all fair. I appreciate the clarification. I disagree with whomever you consulted with, but it's also possible that I've simply made more of a study of WATA's practices, as I've been doing investigative journalism re: the company for months now.

I do not think WATA has covered itself legally; legally speaking it is skating by for the moment because none of its customers feel sufficiently harmed to stand up for themselves (a lot of which has to do with how much profit these customers are making once they do get their games back).

WATA should be concerned that some day those circumstances will change.

For now, their best bet is to always have the WATA website reflect current wait-times, like those emergency-room billboards many states have that are constantly updated to tell you the wait-times for a given emergency room (I don't know if other states have these, but mine does). WATA is earning enough income to have a webmaster who can update their estimates weekly if not daily. Of course, they also have enough income to have a customer service department that answers its phone, a shipping department that returns submitted games immediately with a full refund and shipping costs once a published turnaround estimate has been exceeded by (say) 2X, and a legal department that can ensure not just the fine print but the point-of-sale page at the WATA website unambiguously says everything it needs to say to people being asked to pony up hundreds of dollars.

And in the meantime, PSA could do more than simply demote Deniz Kahn from "CEO and president" to president, it could fire him outright—along with Mark Haspel—for grossly unethical conduct. Then it could amend all its SEC filings to properly reflect all investors; release the scanning app (that Kahn said would include population report data) it promised all its buyers it would release three years ago (WATA gained hundreds of lucrative customers off its case "matrix" technology, though it had no intention of using that feature as it publicly committed to doing in 2018); never grade another game for an investor (let alone an executive like Mark Haspel); and then hire enough graders and handlers to stop inserting human hair, dog hair, scuffs, fruit flies, and plastic bubbles into products it is charging hundreds of dollars for.

{Photographs below from a single copy of The Lone Ranger [NES] now up for sale on eBay for $2,000. Quite the display piece!}

I was complaining about this sort of crap last week in another topic. I was trying to give Wata the benefit of the doubt by waiting for there CS response first before voicing my complaint here. After a week, I was like alright screw it. Unlike the photo above, the human hair inside my slabs is towards the bottom and difficult to see. Its shaped like an "S" on its side. I tell myself well maybe I'll forget about it but each time I'm in my gaming room. I know its there. Like Austin Powers in Goldmember, the mole scene.

I feel like ever since Deniz Kahn sold his company. Everything went to shit. Slow TAT, terrible QC checks (if any) and not giving a fuck if Wata claus gives customers a little parting gift. No, I'm not talking about there little Wata logo sticker. Whats next, a used condom?? Like for real, this shit is gross. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by AnimalHouse

[Seth | 167]

6 hours ago, scooby said:

Can someone find a lawyer who is actually willing to put a class action lawsuit together rather than claim to be an investigative journalist.

Love it. Read my bio, though, sport.

[Seth | 167]

10 hours ago, inasuma said:

i guess it's neither here nor there but mark was bought out during wata's acquisition by collector's universe. that's my understanding at least.

You're correct, I believe. My mistake. The question now is in Haspel will end up involved with CGC, as he has been before. I personally hope not.

[scooby | 12]

10 hours ago, RETRO said:

Love it. Read my bio, though, sport.

I did read it, you are like some kind of less famous ultra liberal wannabe Ronan Farrow

[Seth | 167]

scooby wrote: I did read it, you are like some kind of less famous ultra liberal wannabe Ronan Farrow

Yep—you got me. Less famous than Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ronan Farrow. Zing! On the bright side, as you saw in my bio,

In October 2018, the National Council for the Training of Journalists named Seth, as a freelancer, to its annual roster of the "most-respected journalists" in the United States and the United Kingdom. Voted on by working British journalists, the NCTJ list featured nine freelancers; others honored by the NCTJ in 2018 included Pulitzer Prize winners Bob Woodward and Ronan Farrow and Emmy- and Murrow Award-winning CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour.

Politically, I'm actually a pretty middle-of-the-road Democrat, about halfway between the centrists and the far-left wing of the party. OTOH, you did get one thing right: I wish every day I had Ronan's WASPy good looks. I loved my dad beyond measure and still do after his passing, but he would've been the first to agree that he was no Frank Sinatra.

Edited November 3, 2021 by RETRO

[OptOut | 8,884]

36 minutes ago, scooby said:

I did read it

You read all that?

[Gulag Joe | 582]

I have a Turbo order from January that just went to post grading. 6 more weeks and I'll probably have my 45 day order in hopefully 330ish days. I don't count "business days" because it's all bullshit anyways.

[kell | 102]

16 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

I have a Turbo order from January that just went to post grading. 6 more weeks and I'll probably have my 45 day order in hopefully 330ish days. I don't count "business days" because it's all bullshit anyways.

That may be a bit optimistic since current speed run orders are in post grading for 4-5 months. 

[Gulag Joe | 582]

4 minutes ago, kell said:

That may be a bit optimistic since current speed run orders are in post grading for 4-5 months. 

Don't ruin this for me!

[jonebone | 1,307]

30 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

I have a Turbo order from January that just went to post grading. 6 more weeks and I'll probably have my 45 day order in hopefully 330ish days. I don't count "business days" because it's all bullshit anyways.

My early January Turbo order has been post grading at least 2 months now.  My oldest Speed Run unshipped order is from 5/25 and has been in post grading for months.   My most recently received back order was a Speed Run from 5/11 that I got about two weeks ago.  Just to give you some realism.

Edited November 3, 2021 by jonebone

[Gulag Joe | 582]

8 minutes ago, jonebone said:

My early January Turbo order has been post grading at least 2 months now.  My oldest Speed Run unshipped order is from 5/25 and has been in post grading for months.   My most recently received back order was a Speed Run from 5/11 that I got about two weeks ago.  Just to give you some realism.

My most recently received order (last month) was a select order placed in April of 2020. It hurts.

[scooby | 12]

2 hours ago, OptOut said:

You read all that?

No, but it seems like I assumed correctly. Just having a bit of fun with someone taking themselves too seriously.