SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:23 AM, AirVillain said:

Well, playing lots of hockey and longevity is also very important to legacy, and obviously # of points. But I get it, excellent points. 

Okay, interesting, so you're not into that style of linear game. All good. 

Just out of curiosity, what other games other than RPG's do you like? ... as the vast majority of decent games for NES (other than auto-scrollers & some sports games I suppose) are the linear platformer/shooters... NO Mario/Mega Man/Contra games....?  How about any in the Capcome Disney Set? 

If you're not playing Mega Man or Capcom Disney games, that's like 80 taken from your NES options alone, haha. 

The Capcom Disney games aren't terrible, though some are more linear than I like.  Duck Tales is the pinnacle of that experience though.

Most of what I play are RPGs, strategy games, action-adventure games (think Simon's Quest or Metroid), etc.  I will play pretty much anything once though, and have a soft spot for a lot of unlicensed games, especially Color Dreams (they shot for the moon and fell far short, but I respect the effort).

[Ankos | 481]

3 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Most of what I play are RPGs, strategy games, action-adventure games (think Simon's Quest or Metroid), etc.  I will play pretty much anything once though, and have a soft spot for a lot of unlicensed games, especially Color Dreams (they shot for the moon and fell far short, but I respect the effort).

Unlicensed games, and platformer games with RPG elements? Have you tried Sintax's Lord of the Rings game for the Gameboy Color? It is one of the few quality works they ever put out. Unfortunately it sometimes lags and skips, but other than that it is quite good. It is sort of a ripoff of Zelda 2

[Tanooki | 4,958]

3 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The Capcom Disney games aren't terrible, though some are more linear than I like.  Duck Tales is the pinnacle of that experience though.

Most of what I play ... and have a soft spot for a lot of unlicensed games, especially Color Dreams ...

Good call and I'd agree in DT, 2 isn't as good, yet oddly now owning both rescue rangers I find despite the more brief stay it has, RR2 is right in there with DT as peak Capcom platformer it's amazing, even if it is on the easier side like DT1 is too.

And unlicensed Tengen was just on another level, great stuff, but kind of expected when they were pandering games Namco and Sega wouldn't dare shovel themselves on Nintendo due to grudges, competition(sega.)

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

41 minutes ago, Ankos said:

Unlicensed games, and platformer games with RPG elements? Have you tried Sintax's Lord of the Rings game for the Gameboy Color? It is one of the few quality works they ever put out. Unfortunately it sometimes lags and skips, but other than that it is quite good. It is sort of a ripoff of Zelda 2

I've never heard of that one, though now I'll be adding that to my wish list...

37 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Good call and I'd agree in DT, 2 isn't as good, yet oddly now owning both rescue rangers I find despite the more brief stay it has, RR2 is right in there with DT as peak Capcom platformer it's amazing, even if it is on the easier side like DT1 is too.

And unlicensed Tengen was just on another level, great stuff, but kind of expected when they were pandering games Namco and Sega wouldn't dare shovel themselves on Nintendo due to grudges, competition(sega.)

Yeah, I thought Chip & Dale 2 was better overall.  The first was alright but kinda meh, but the second...maybe cuz it was shorter and didn't overstay it's welcome, but I did like it better myself.

Tengen was kind of a weird one - they were essentially a division of Atari, and licensed a ton of Sega and Namco games to be released in North America.  In fact, of the Sega titles, Shinobi was the only one that didn't see an official Famicom release.  After Burner and Fantasy Zone were both released by Sunsoft, and Alien Syndrome was released by Sanritsu.  The rest were either Atari or Namco properties.

[AirVillain | 497]

Tons of great conversation here.... 

 

On 7/28/2022 at 7:38 AM, Link said:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/04/the-secret-history-of-super-mario-bros-2

 

Yeah.... this article specifically says Miyamoto says "Make it more Mario like" (for it to be any good).... sssssssoooo.... doesn't sound like it was intended to be a Mario game from jump.
 

On 7/28/2022 at 7:17 PM, MrWunderful said:

I think I can solve the argument. Let’s debate what constitutes a “Mario” game. Is it something that is sold at retail that has Mario on the cover or in the title? Or is it something that was from development day one to include Mario as a main player character?

 

If you swap out a megaman 2 sprite with Mario, change his blaster to fireballs and have all the level bosses be koopas isn’t that a Mario game?

I believe this. The game must be designed as a "Mario" game from the beginning of production. Just that simple. 

When the game undergoes development with Mario in mind then the entire focus is on making it as such. 

Let's not get it twisted, either.... I respect SMB2. I like it.... even maybe love it. 

But... seems development was intended for another franchise, copying what was so beloved about Mario. Thus it made for an easy transition and "solution" to get a sequel to the North American market. 
 

On 7/30/2022 at 2:06 PM, WhyNotZoidberg said:

I’d point point out that SMB3 has more random secrets than SMW: The coin ships, puzzle cards and all that. And there are bonus screens in some levels I’m not even sure I could get to without using Game Genie codes. And the reward might be some crap like a music box. But it makes things interesting to actually use cheats to explore everything, see what gives. And the fact that you can’t replay levels (which I think is weak) means that, for example, catching a whistle will lock you out of a stage, and not being able to dive back in _might_ create a form of longing, like you wish you could go back but you can’t.

Where SMW’s secrets are pretty much all formatted around finding the other exit(s), but this leads to having like, one huge secret which really impacts the game instead of dozens of small random ones that are just cool to discover.

I still think SMW is the superior game. Graphics, music, new mecanics, controls, Yoshi, World Map and save feature.

As opposed to @AirVillain’s sentiment, whenever I’m playing SMB3 I sorta wish I was playing SMW instead.

And since SMB2 USA is my favorite NES Mario:

SMW>SMB2>SMB>SMB3

Still love 3. But yeah, SMW IS great even when compared to SMB3.

I respect your commitment. 

Whoa.... sweet lord.... What is this mathematical equation you have introduced???? SWEET LORD. 

 

On 7/31/2022 at 6:16 PM, the_wizard_666 said:

The Capcom Disney games aren't terrible, though some are more linear than I like.  Duck Tales is the pinnacle of that experience though.

Most of what I play are RPGs, strategy games, action-adventure games (think Simon's Quest or Metroid), etc.  I will play pretty much anything once though, and have a soft spot for a lot of unlicensed games, especially Color Dreams (they shot for the moon and fell far short, but I respect the effort).

Interesting. Duck Tales is a banger so thats no surprise. 

Right, that makes sense if you prefer those types of games. Platformy but still not necessarily so linear, I get what you're saying. 
 

22 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Good call and I'd agree in DT, 2 isn't as good, yet oddly now owning both rescue rangers I find despite the more brief stay it has, RR2 is right in there with DT as peak Capcom platformer it's amazing, even if it is on the easier side like DT1 is too.

And unlicensed Tengen was just on another level, great stuff, but kind of expected when they were pandering games Namco and Sega wouldn't dare shovel themselves on Nintendo due to grudges, competition(sega.)

Ah yes.... The Capcom Disney Series, aka Mega Man 7-12 (RR 1 & 2, DT 1 & 2, Darkwing Duck, Little Mermaid.... plus Little Nemo if you want).

[Tanooki | 4,958]

22 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I've never heard of that one, though now I'll be adding that to my wish list...

Yeah, I thought Chip & Dale 2 was better overall.  The first was alright but kinda meh, but the second...maybe cuz it was shorter and didn't overstay it's welcome, but I did like it better myself.

Tengen was kind of a weird one - they were essentially a division of Atari, and licensed a ton of Sega and Namco games to be released in North America.  In fact, of the Sega titles, Shinobi was the only one that didn't see an official Famicom release.  After Burner and Fantasy Zone were both released by Sunsoft, and Alien Syndrome was released by Sanritsu.  The rest were either Atari or Namco properties.

That's about my feel having played and finished it the first time, even what I sunk into I don't mind, because of that just.  It's shorter, more concise, a better oiled experience that doesn't just drag and drag, it's short, but not toxic short (under 30min) where a kindergartner could destroy it too as fast.  They really upped the ante both on the audio, and the visuals, even with a unique font and added details to every return sprite, animation, and stages.  Even nice touches refining the crate use/throw/guard mechanics, it's smart.

And yeah I know most of us here probably know that whole Tengen aka Atari story, both the names are a GO thing, so it was a big wink, nod, and middle finger to NCL(Nintendo Japan) with that one given what they did.  They got so many fantastic games from Japan that wouldn't come here due to the Nintendo vs them pissing match with Namco leadership, and just SMS (Sega) being a direct competitor, so I'm glad they existed.  Atari did some nice covert snark and got some solid games to us having I think shoved out around 20 titles, mostly good to excellent.

25 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

Ah yes.... The Capcom Disney Series, aka Mega Man 7-12 (RR 1 & 2, DT 1 & 2, Darkwing Duck, Little Mermaid.... plus Little Nemo if you want).

Yeah I guess, that's one way to really be fair to call it.  In that case I just am missing nothing, because I'd put Little Mermaid into the same box as that terrible (sad really) Talespin, it's more of a half baked plodding shooter as you don't platform in either.  The others, DT/RR 1+2, Darkwing and Nemo all use that same design because it was so well done it had the versatility to get away with it and feel utterly fresh with undertones of I guess 'capcom comfort food' because you get the same vibe out of it.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

10 hours ago, AirVillain said:

 

 

 

[Link | 2,768]

15 hours ago, AirVillain said:

Yeah.... this article specifically says Miyamoto says "Make it more Mario like" (for it to be any good).... sssssssoooo.... doesn't sound like it was intended to be a Mario game from jump.

I believe this. The game must be designed as a "Mario" game from the beginning of production. Just that simple. 

When the game undergoes development with Mario in mind then the entire focus is on making it as such. 

Super Mario was considered for the engine before anything else was.

As for "from the beginning," see my previous comment about Nintendo's development process. Read about R&D 1-4 or, for instance, the development section in the Wikipedia article about DK Jr. Or consider SMB1, which started design not as a sequel to the plumber arcade game, but as an "athletic game with a scrolling screen and larger characters."

[AirVillain | 497]

On 8/1/2022 at 9:32 PM, Tanooki said:

Yeah I guess, that's one way to really be fair to call it.  In that case I just am missing nothing, because I'd put Little Mermaid into the same box as that terrible (sad really) Talespin, it's more of a half baked plodding shooter as you don't platform in either.  The others, DT/RR 1+2, Darkwing and Nemo all use that same design because it was so well done it had the versatility to get away with it and feel utterly fresh with undertones of I guess 'capcom comfort food' because you get the same vibe out of it.

Well... wait a second here.... let's not disparage The Little Mermaid, now. It's a great game with great music, a funny/nonsensical to the movie storyline, and has great controls. 

You can throw shells diagonally! It's amazing. Also, the mechanism for finding shells/power-ups in the sand is hilarious. THe powerups are great too. 

I mean... it takes like 12 minutes to beat, but still. It's fun for what it is. 

Tailspin is shit, I agree. Especially because every time I play it I always think "damn... this could be SO GOOD." I think they screwed up the shooting.... like, if you could shoot faster, or had better shooting power-ups it would help. 

100% agreed on the comment re: DT?RR 1+ 2, DW & Nemo. Well said. 
 

On 8/2/2022 at 7:58 AM, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Haha... well, I'll tell you this... I appreciate it more because of the use of The Macho Man .gif. 

 

22 hours ago, Link said:

Super Mario was considered for the engine before anything else was.

As for "from the beginning," see my previous comment about Nintendo's development process. Read about R&D 1-4 or, for instance, the development section in the Wikipedia article about DK Jr. Or consider SMB1, which started design not as a sequel to the plumber arcade game, but as an "athletic game with a scrolling screen and larger characters."

Hmmmmm..... interesting....

I think I've found our answer.... MARIO IS ACTUALLY AN EXCITE BIKE GAME. 

"Super Mario Bros. used the fast scrolling game engine Miyamoto's team had originally developed for Excitebike, which allowed Mario to smoothly accelerate from a walk to a run, rather than move at a constant speed like in earlier platformers.^[13]Super Mario Bros. used the fast scrolling game engine Miyamoto's team had originally developed for Excitebike, which allowed Mario to smoothly accelerate from a walk to a run, rather than move at a constant speed like in earlier platformers.^[13]

[Tanooki | 4,958]

I'm not, it just isn't the same design, that was it.  It's more like the lousy Tailspin is all where it's kind of a free moving (albeit slow) shooter.  The other whole mess of them (adventures in magic kingdom aside) are platformers with the same mega man mold and design to them under the hood.

 

Tailspin is just functionally broken by design, bad design.  I mean, it is playable, it's just not fun and doesn't inspire wanting to even waste time getting used to it.  It's slow, fires slow, handles oddly.  I mean had they been smart and perhaps did a mix-n-match of stages where you fly in normal shooter style which Capcom is comfy with, and then had stages with you as Baloo and/Kit perhaps swapping out due to unique abilities that would have made it a sure fire winner.  Maybe some SectionZ style shooting in both directions with sky pirates swooping in, then some Darkwing Duck style stage design for those areas that would have been fantastic and likely another annoyingly $100 disney NES cart at this rate.

[AirVillain | 497]

On 8/3/2022 at 11:35 AM, Tanooki said:

I'm not, it just isn't the same design, that was it.  It's more like the lousy Tailspin is all where it's kind of a free moving (albeit slow) shooter.  The other whole mess of them (adventures in magic kingdom aside) are platformers with the same mega man mold and design to them under the hood.

 

Tailspin is just functionally broken by design, bad design.  I mean, it is playable, it's just not fun and doesn't inspire wanting to even waste time getting used to it.  It's slow, fires slow, handles oddly.  I mean had they been smart and perhaps did a mix-n-match of stages where you fly in normal shooter style which Capcom is comfy with, and then had stages with you as Baloo and/Kit perhaps swapping out due to unique abilities that would have made it a sure fire winner.  Maybe some SectionZ style shooting in both directions with sky pirates swooping in, then some Darkwing Duck style stage design for those areas that would have been fantastic and likely another annoyingly $100 disney NES cart at this rate.

I gotcha.... wait a minute. You just said you weren't disparaging The Little Mermaid and then you put it into the same category as Tailspin?? haha... 

I agree that TailSpin is shit, but I wouldn't really compare the two in terms of game-play. 

I like The Little Mermaid because it feels like a flying shooter platformer.... if that makes any sense. Kind of like when you use Rush later on in the Mega Man series as a suit. 6? 

The mechanics for sweeping your tail in TLM and the speed/weapon upgrades you get are pretty sweet. Neat/fun bosses. The music is, of course, great. And the graphics/animation are bright and look good. 

I agree with you 100% on TailSpin. 

Because TailSpin is a SCROLLING shooter, and the flipping mechanic while fun basically breaks the game, it leads to be a game more like 1943, with a fucked up backwards flying motion. 

What you just described as an alternative for TailSpin sounds like an incredible idea. 

Maybe give Little Mermaid another try, though. 

[Tanooki | 4,958]

I'm not ripping it, just putting it into the same box of not another megaman re-skin to be basic about it.  I never said it was bad, Failspin is bad.  Mermaid is more shooter like you don't platform, you fly (float) essentially around in the water there to take on items and take out targets so odds are they share the same engine, though used widely differently.  I've owned at some point the entire disney capcom library and played them well enough if not to completion (outside of magical kingdom, kind of boring.)

[Nintegageo | 582]

Is this the longest troll thread VGS has at this point?

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

6 hours ago, Nintegageo said:

Is this the longest troll thread VGS has at this point?

I literally just clicked to espouse my amazement that this is still going.

Also, SMB3 rules and SMW drools!

[Link | 2,768]

38 minutes ago, DoctorEncore said:

I literally just clicked to espouse my amazement that this is still going.

Also, SMB3 rules and SMW drools!

Well the OP tends to bump it with multi-paragraph multi-quotes after a few weeks pass, so...

[AirVillain | 497]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:03 AM, Tanooki said:

I'm not ripping it, just putting it into the same box of not another megaman re-skin to be basic about it.  I never said it was bad, Failspin is bad.  Mermaid is more shooter like you don't platform, you fly (float) essentially around in the water there to take on items and take out targets so odds are they share the same engine, though used widely differently.  I've owned at some point the entire disney capcom library and played them well enough if not to completion (outside of magical kingdom, kind of boring.)

Haha, okay, sorry. I get a little defensive with Little Mermaid 

That is an excellent description. Well said. 

Since I like the movie itself with the music and colourful animation the game translates well so I enjoy thinking of it as a re-tooled Mega Man game..... The Little Mega Mermaid as it would be.

Magical Kingdom is a weird one.... it's kind of not really even included in the Capcom set in my eyes, but it obviously would be.... it's just so shitty/boring I don't even think of it. Although I'd probably play it "more" than FailSpin (haha, great name). 

 

On 8/9/2022 at 12:35 PM, Nintegageo said:

Is this the longest troll thread VGS has at this point?

Please. I'm offended that you think I would use SMB3 as a ploy in a troll thread. Deeply deeply offended. 

Tanooki Suit Mario is offended. 

Super Mario Bros 3 deserves so much better that that...  which is what I'm trying to make clear. 
 

On 8/9/2022 at 6:47 PM, DoctorEncore said:

I literally just clicked to espouse my amazement that this is still going.

Also, SMB3 rules and SMW drools!

Thank you for your confirmation! I will add it to the official data from this thread. 

SMB3 - 87
SMW - 4

On 8/9/2022 at 7:26 PM, Link said:

Well the OP tends to bump it with multi-paragraph multi-quotes after a few weeks pass, so...

Haha.... aaaaaaaaaand right on que!

What do you want me to say? I'm not on here everyday. It's summer? When I am here I forget what I'm talking about? 

Is that okay???

Also, we have added more data to the SMB3 vs SMW database and expanded our discussion on Disney Capcom/games. Win win.

[Tanooki | 4,958]

Failspin works as it just rhymes and it's accurate... you spin around in a game that has all failing qualities to it with the actual play of it, audio and visuals are nice disney/capcom standard.

They'd have been better off publishing another Hudson game like Mickey than pumping out that awful game.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

Talespin is actually a great game if you know how to play it correctly. I really enjoy that game. I do agree its not very intuitive. 

[AirVillain | 497]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:49 PM, Tanooki said:

Failspin works as it just rhymes and it's accurate... you spin around in a game that has all failing qualities to it with the actual play of it, audio and visuals are nice disney/capcom standard.

They'd have been better off publishing another Hudson game like Mickey than pumping out that awful game.

Quite an accurate play on words.

 

On 8/18/2022 at 2:19 PM, CodysGameRoom said:

Talespin is actually a great game if you know how to play it correctly. I really enjoy that game. I do agree its not very intuitive. 

I've tried a few times to "get into it", but perhaps I just didn't try hard enough.

I can understand a game having a "learning curve" for controls, and once you get it the game becomes great. Aka Double Dragon 2. 

Hmmm.... I'll give it another shot. 

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,065]

 

[fcgamer | 4,792]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:41 AM, AirVillain said:

Quite an accurate play on words.

 

I've tried a few times to "get into it", but perhaps I just didn't try hard enough.

I can understand a game having a "learning curve" for controls, and once you get it the game becomes great. Aka Double Dragon 2. 

Hmmm.... I'll give it another shot. 

Talespin kicks ass, I agree with Cody and we disagree with everything. I think that says it all, give it another shot 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,009]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Talespin kicks ass, I agree with Cody and we disagree with everything. I think that says it all, give it another shot 

I think we agree on more than you think, just disagree on some things that are more fundamental to our core beliefs, so it feels bigger. idk. whatever

[docile tapeworm | 4,206]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:12 AM, Tulpa said:

Because you make it so easy.

 

Which scenario is more plausible?

1. They made a prototype that was intended for Mario, then developed it into Doki, and back into Mario.

2. A bunch of billionaire suits in Japan suddenly become aware of what a few fans think of a Mario game decades later, then decide they give a shit about what a few fans think of a Mario game decades later, decide to concoct an elaborate conspiracy, and then get a bunch of game journalists to support the theory. All the while developing newer, more relevant games and otherwise leading busy lives.

Yeah, I'm going with scenario one. It leaves me with less tinfoil on my head.

You know what. I’m retracting my back pedaling. They lied to you then and they are still lying because they don’t want to look like liars!

[Tulpa | 3,569]

2 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

You know what. I’m retracting my back pedaling. They lied to you then and they are still lying because they don’t want to look like liars!

Are we on that again?

I don't think billionaires play by Skinny rules.

[Tulpa | 3,569]

"Hey Elon!"

"Yeah, Jeff?"

"I got an idea. Let's lie about something inconsequential that happened decades ago that only a small amount of basement dwellers are even aware of, let alone care about."

"Don't we have busy lives acquiring social media platforms?"

"Nah, dog. We got tons of free time to spend on trolling a group of people whose numbers could safely fill a college football stadium."

"True dat. True dat. Let's do it!"