SMW is not great if you compare it to SMB3... Also, SMB2 stuff

[Jeevan | 8,963]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Yeah, but some are shittier than others 

sounds like they need some dude wipes or somethin'  

Also, i forgot to mention in my above post.......

I too do not think that smb1 is a good game!  I prefer smb2 us to all nes mario games

[Tanooki | 4,953]

Eh his opinion is wrong and sucks, but, I remember it going back at least hmm...12 years or so as it was ranted about when prodded on NA. Never could come up with a good reason, or even one that made sense, just that he stuck consistently to why supposedly Mario (other than 2) sucks.  I can even go as far as calling SMB3 a downgrade, visually speaking on the sprites, over SMB2 because it was.  What the hell they were thinking going from well rounded, beautifully drawn cartoon like sprites that matched more the look of the Cap'n Lou/Cartoon experience for this bland, lower detailed, beady eyed blank stared creature in SMB3 still doesn't sit well with me.  Mario World got the cartoon look back with the higher detail the old SMB2 had, very weird.  SMB3 has more tile and sprite variety, no argument, but it was more basic, maybe to tile more to save on storage while SMB2 using less had more room to get a bit creative perhaps.

[AirVillain | 491]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:09 AM, Jeevan said:

stop myself and put in SMW   sorry, i just couldn't resist!

My favorite is playing the first 3 worlds.  I remember we had to rent it in a "lottery" so i didn't get to play it right off the bat, but i wanted to.  We eventually rented it, and worlds 1-3 are the best imo.  We eventually bought a copy and i beat the game after that.

Nice answer: See, we're getting somewhere! Worlds 1-3, cool! Wow, a lottery to rent it, that's hilarious. Would they pick out the "winners" then take them out or, could someone keep adding themselves back in to the lottery even if they've rented it? 

Sarcastic/jaded forum user answer: Worlds 1-3 are the best sounds like you couldn't get past 3 as a kid.   But they're excellent worlds, no doubt. 1 is ultra classic, 2 is great, and 3 doesn't get as much respect as it should. 

But really, has it been a while since you played SMB3?

Worlds 4-5 are pretty epic. Former has incredibly hilarious giant enemies, various paths, and you get introduced to the Tanooki Suit (3 available in World 4...? Pretty sure there's one in the final Mushroom house). 

World 5 is more challenging but lots of flying and neat cloud levels, like the flying beetles. Again, lots of Tanooki Suits. 

I get it if you like SMW more if you've only played Worlds 1-3... I get it, I get it. 
 

On 7/19/2022 at 11:46 AM, Tanooki said:

You're fine.  I think the Office GIF there is why that reddit got its name, it just was a funny quote to use as a name because sometimes you just need a lot more detail enough will just roll their eyes over or get nasty about.  So no I don't mind explaining it.  Yeah it was a joke, observational humor because I watched someone make such a stunningly dense reach in thinking that.

The NES and SNES chips are compatible, it's a 16bit upgrade and some basically.  There are actual hacker works out there where people have moved NES games with nested to SNES, and some have figured out how to rig a NES to display SNES games and that's just strange to watch (there's a Super Mario World on NES output video on youtube.)

There's a LOT of work involved if you don't go with A) emulation or 2 ) simulation.  With emulation not that it's easy, but you need superior hardware to pretend to be every functional bit of one system so it can be emulated on another.  With simulation it depends, you can simulate the environment because of compatibility with hardware so you can use the same software calls(requests) and get away with what is shared allowing lower overhead, but simulation could just be a FPGA style setup too.  FPGA like the Super Nt/Mega Sg systems have an actual FPGA chipset that was designed to simulate what the original did, it's more accurate than low class clones and emulation, but they can barely off of perfect hardware copies.

The case of Mario Allstars, Ninja Gaiden Trilogy, or even (you'd swear it is emulated) overly basic copies of 3 shooters on the Hudson Caravan Collection (Super Famicom) are all just remakes. They didn't simulate (port) the code over, the hardware can't emulate the NES either effectively.  So these games basically whether touched up a lot (Mario), somewhat (NGT) or not at all (CC) are new audio, new visuals, new programmer code to basically clone what the original did as much as possible.

But as you pointed out Mario feels 'heavy' that's because it's a mix of just change in reaction but largely personal preference too.  It should work as the original does, but when you're trying to match, trying isn't 100% succeeding so some will feel the difference...you do.

 

Very interesting, thank you for enlightening me. Never knew that. I mean, you gotta hand it to them for going for it. 

The other big difference for me, obviously, is the controller. The SNES one just doesn't quite have the same "feel" as the NES one with the buttons being diagonal. 

So when you combine the basically newly built game, with the controller, I can definitely feel the difference. 

It's not enough for me to hate the game or not want to play it (*Coughs* NES Classic) because it still works well and fun in a pinch, or to check out the different graphics out of pure curiosity, or at someone else's house and they have an SNES All-Stars is a great alternative. 

 

On 7/19/2022 at 7:44 PM, fcgamer said:

I'm not sure what the reason is, as I haven't played the NES version in years. But it is much easier, I think the enemies are weaker. Actually Battletoads on Famicom is supposed to be easier too

On 7/19/2022 at 10:29 PM, Tanooki said:

You're correct saying that to @AirVillain about battletoads.  The game was nastier in the US, they made a few corrections as other versions came long.  The FC version is easier and balanced a bit better, but easier is relative, and the Genesis version (the one I have currently) is more on par with the FC game it's the easiest/most balanced so the turbo tunnel while still quite nasty isn't a twitch memorization guessing game among other nasty bits.  I mean it's not easy, it's just not cheapo insanely hard.  Bayou Billy that one they did the same as like Ninja Gaiden games in the US, made it harder to middle finger rental stores/consumers so you got an unbalanced harder than necessary game for pure profit robbing revenge so the FC games are the superior accurate intent of design copies of the games.

Interesting about Bayou Billy. It's a fun game and would be even more fun if it wasn't annoyingly difficult. 

Battletoads as well.... Was one of the sections they made easier in the FC version the Gargantuan Ducts? 

Shitty move by the developers. I would have loved Bayou Billy, & NG WAY more if they weren't so hard. Battletoads I still really love, but don't get as angry for it's difficulty. 
 

12 hours ago, Optomon said:

This thread is like :

"Mario Lemieux is not great when you compare him Wayne Gretzky" 

#TruthBomb

Gretzky had close to double the points Lemeiux had. 

Even #2, Jagr, had only like 66% of Gretzky's points. 

Source: https://www.espn.com/nhl/history/leaders

 

Thus, the conclusion is this: SMB3 is the Wayne Gretzky of Video games, nothing else even comes close. 

 

8 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

It's the truth.  I admit that SMB3 is a technical marvel, but I felt it was a downgrade over the experience I got from SMB2.  Although being that I didn't like SMB1, that also makes a lot of sense to me.  I think it was the gameplay in general...never been a fan of just running to the right.  Although it may simply be that with the NES, while my game options were limited, I had choices that helped refine my tastes. I only had SMB/DH, TMNT, and Metroid at the time, and barring a rental, I gravitated to TMNT and Metroid over the drudgery of SMB.  SMB2 felt like a step toward the games I liked, while SMB3 felt like it was stepping back.  Conversely, my childhood experience with the SNES was at my uncle's house, and he ONLY had SMW.  Thus, it was either play that or play nothing, and I only got rentals from them when I showed them my file with everything unlocked.  Basically saying "I've done literally everything I can, can I please play something else now?"

Hmmm, okay. Well, you don't like Mario games then. That's cool. 

I would say that if you don't like Mario games, cheifly didn't even like it from jump with SMB, then OF COURSE you're not going to like SMB3. 

I mean, if you're not a fan if a side scrolling platforming style then, again, you're not going to like the game? 

But, you don't hate SMW and you like SMB2 the most. Well, as we all know SMB2 is basically a rom hack with Mario characters so it's not really in the discussion. SMB3 is basically (not disregarding the "lost levels" aka "REAL SMB2) the sequel to SMB. 

Thus... if you don't like SMB, of course you won't like SMB3. I mean, I guess that's cool. I don't like some "classic" games because they're RPG's, and I find them boring and tedious. So hey.... do you. 

Also somewhat relevant... are there ANY side scrolling platformers that you DO like? I mean... we've established SMB2, SMW, which both count in this context.... I mean... do you just hate the entire style of video game? 

 

5 hours ago, Brickman said:

Wow this thread is still going? They are both great, time to lock it up.

And while you're at it lock up that disgusting "potato" thread too, that thing is not fit for human consumption 

Time to lock it up? Yeesh... what's your beef, man? This is a healthy discussion, which has contained many related derailments, yet still has maintained it's original intention. 

Are you afraid to explore your true feelings on the subject? Are you afraid you will actually enjoy one more than the other and destroy your entire concept of reality?  

I mean, give it a shot..... play both games with all the points and input from forum members favourite/most hated aspects of each game.... maybe you will come out with a new outlook.   
 

1 hour ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Wait, what?  Are you the one who dragged him to NA?  You're to blame for all of it!

Thank god for that. If you mean Gloves. If you mean Jeevan.... ummm.... 

 

11 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Eh his opinion is wrong and sucks, but, I remember it going back at least hmm...12 years or so as it was ranted about when prodded on NA. Never could come up with a good reason, or even one that made sense, just that he stuck consistently to why supposedly Mario (other than 2) sucks.  I can even go as far as calling SMB3 a downgrade, visually speaking on the sprites, over SMB2 because it was.  What the hell they were thinking going from well rounded, beautifully drawn cartoon like sprites that matched more the look of the Cap'n Lou/Cartoon experience for this bland, lower detailed, beady eyed blank stared creature in SMB3 still doesn't sit well with me.  Mario World got the cartoon look back with the higher detail the old SMB2 had, very weird.  SMB3 has more tile and sprite variety, no argument, but it was more basic, maybe to tile more to save on storage while SMB2 using less had more room to get a bit creative perhaps.

I see what you're saying re: the sprites. Do loves me some black Mario Pants, though. Shout out to my OG *redacted* thread in which my amazement of realizing his pants were black. 

I feel (and what I like to tell myself) is that the less cartoony sprite allowed the game developers to absolutely nail the game mechanics. So, we get less "well rounded, beautifully drawn cartoon like sprites" and better gameplay. 

 Maybe?

 

49 minutes ago, Jeevan said:

sounds like they need some dude wipes or somethin'  

Also, i forgot to mention in my above post.......

I too do not think that smb1 is a good game!  I prefer smb2 us to all nes mario games

What in god's name are we even talking about here? Are you trolling us? I will proceed as if you are not. 

First of all, as mentioned, SMB2 is basically a rom hack with Mario characters inserted. So, does it even COUNT as a "Mario game" on NES???

Not really. 

Saying "SMB is not a good game" is just blatantly false. You may not like it, but objectively speaking, it's far beyond just a "good game". It literally changed the world.

I don't like Legend of Zelda on NES, but I'm not about to sit here and be like "zELdA iS nOT a GoOD gAmE."

Yeah, that's the point here... to say how we feel.... but we all must face reality as well. 

[Tanooki | 4,953]

@AirVillain No I get it.  I've got the classic too (both models) not that they get a lot of use when I have what's on there in real form, but it is plugged in very lightly used though.  The thing is, if it wasn't for that, I've not actually bothered to use a real NES boxy controller in years, I've got a hardcore modded top loader and use its controller, I prefer the curves, and the angle I think nothing of and as such I don't with SNES either.  I imagine you'd probably like my Mario Allstars famicom one off cart I have, the benefits of the SNES game, but as a MMC5 hacked 8bit cart.

[Jeevan | 8,963]

3 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

Nice answer: See, we're getting somewhere! Worlds 1-3, cool! Wow, a lottery to rent it, that's hilarious. Would they pick out the "winners" then take them out or, could someone keep adding themselves back in to the lottery even if they've rented it? 

Sarcastic/jaded forum user answer: Worlds 1-3 are the best sounds like you couldn't get past 3 as a kid.   But they're excellent worlds, no doubt. 1 is ultra classic, 2 is great, and 3 doesn't get as much respect as it should. 

But really, has it been a while since you played SMB3?

Worlds 4-5 are pretty epic. Former has incredibly hilarious giant enemies, various paths, and you get introduced to the Tanooki Suit (3 available in World 4...? Pretty sure there's one in the final Mushroom house). 

World 5 is more challenging but lots of flying and neat cloud levels, like the flying beetles. Again, lots of Tanooki Suits. 

I get it if you like SMW more if you've only played Worlds 1-3... I get it, I get it. 
 

I don't know about the lottery as the store opened early that day with people showing up to rent it, i wasn't there my brother was, he told me they drew out of a hat and he didn't get it.  We waited, we rented it, we eventually bought it.  

It has been a min. since i have really felt the need to put that game in my slot...... giggity........

i know world 4 pretty well as well, and world 5 too.  Once i beat the game, i really felt no need to go back as it didn't have that much of a draw after you beat it and got p wings for playthrough 2.

That being said, SMW always brought me back cuz it was so unique with all of its secret endings!

I was 7 when the game came out, i was much more into going outside than fighting to play video games   

 

20 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

Thank god for that. If you mean Gloves. If you mean Jeevan.... ummm.... 

Down right rude!

 

20 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

What in god's name are we even talking about here? Are you trolling us? I will proceed as if you are not. 

First of all, as mentioned, SMB2 is basically a rom hack with Mario characters inserted. So, does it even COUNT as a "Mario game" on NES???

Not really. 

Saying "SMB is not a good game" is just blatantly false. You may not like it, but objectively speaking, it's far beyond just a "good game". It literally changed the world.

I don't like Legend of Zelda on NES, but I'm not about to sit here and be like "zELdA iS nOT a GoOD gAmE."

Yeah, that's the point here... to say how we feel.... but we all must face reality as well. 

Yes SMB2 u.s. counts, it has mario, its a game, its a mario game from nintender themselves.  

Fair, I DON'T LIKE SMB1, AND SMB2 U.S., an actual game, IS THE BEST OF THE 3 NES MARIO GAMES!

Doesn't like zelda:  now we know what is wrong with you........I have a hot take on this as well

Alttp is and always will be the best zelda game from henceforth into the unseen future of all zelda games past, present and future!

[Reed Rothchild | 9,598]

Hot take: all (non-edutainment) Mario platformers are good.  All of them.  Even, like, NSMB2.  Fight me*.

*not really 

 

[Link | 2,743]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

SMB3 has more tile and sprite variety, no argument, but it was more basic, maybe to tile more to save on storage while SMB2 using less had more room to get a bit creative perhaps.

I think you're talking about a few bytes' difference at the most, if anything. I really doubt it was a space-saving move on two standard sprites. Just a different style. You don't like it but I do  

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

7 hours ago, AirVillain said:

#TruthBomb

Gretzky had close to double the points Lemeiux had. 

Even #2, Jagr, had only like 66% of Gretzky's points. 

Source: https://www.espn.com/nhl/history/leaders

 

Thus, the conclusion is this: SMB3 is the Wayne Gretzky of Video games, nothing else even comes close. 
 

It's not that simple.  Gretzky had a career spanning two full decades, and never had less than 70 games played in a season.  He also suffered a marked decline in his final few years.  Lemieux, meanwhile, likely would've surpassed Gretzky had he remained healthy (he had a number of seasons under 60 games played, including 1990-91 when he played a mere 26 games, yet still had 45 points...this is two years removed from his 199 point year).  And let's not forget losing three seasons to lymphoma while he was still performing at a high level.  He came back and had 76 points in 42 games in 2000-01 after a three year hiatus.  Imagine the production he could've had if he had been healthy and not retired.  Hell, his numbers were still respectable in his final two years (9 points in 10 games in 2003-04, and 22 points in 26 games in 2005-06, when he was fucking 40 years old! 

Fun fact: Lemieux had a higher goals-per-game average than Gretzky did, despite losing several prime years and a ton of time to injury.  So for fun, I took that number and multiplied it by Gretzky's career games played.  Based on those calculations, the 500+ extra games Gretzky played would've put Lemieux's career goals at 1,121   While I doubt he would've hit THAT number, I do think that he had a legit shot at 1000 goals if he'd stayed healthy.

But yeah, they played completely different styles of games, and the wear and tear on Mario's body is proof of that.

 

7 hours ago, AirVillain said:

Hmmm, okay. Well, you don't like Mario games then. That's cool. 

I would say that if you don't like Mario games, cheifly didn't even like it from jump with SMB, then OF COURSE you're not going to like SMB3. 

I mean, if you're not a fan if a side scrolling platforming style then, again, you're not going to like the game? 

But, you don't hate SMW and you like SMB2 the most. Well, as we all know SMB2 is basically a rom hack with Mario characters so it's not really in the discussion. SMB3 is basically (not disregarding the "lost levels" aka "REAL SMB2) the sequel to SMB. 

Thus... if you don't like SMB, of course you won't like SMB3. I mean, I guess that's cool. I don't like some "classic" games because they're RPG's, and I find them boring and tedious. So hey.... do you. 

Also somewhat relevant... are there ANY side scrolling platformers that you DO like? I mean... we've established SMB2, SMW, which both count in this context.... I mean... do you just hate the entire style of video game?

Hate is a strong word, but I generally am not much of a fan.  I think it's the linearity of it...I wasn't into Mega Man either, and Simon's Quest was the only good Castlevania IMO until SotN came out.  Even games like Contra were pretty meh to me, unless I was playing 2-player.  It's probably why I gravitated to RPGs and action-adventure games more than anything even in my youth.

 

7 hours ago, Jeevan said:

Yes SMB2 u.s. counts, it has mario, its a game, its a mario game from nintender themselves. 

Let's not forget that it was good enough that Nintendo themselves brought it back to Japan on the Famicom...

[Tanooki | 4,953]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Let's not forget that it was good enough that Nintendo themselves brought it back to Japan on the Famicom...

That and if you read decade old interviews from IGN and other translated sources I guess around the Wii 25th anniversary stuff Miyamoto was asked about the game and went into a bit.  He admitted as much it was his favorite from then, which stuck with me as I was shocked, I figured he'd run to SMB3 or even 1 given it started it.  And then the fact the Doki Doki game started as a Mario sequel engine in alpha, and that's when Dream Factory/FujiTV approached them to do a video game for the huge event, and given they had the starter Mario engine going in alpha, they ran with it and they got that cool game, we got Mario 2 because well (another story), and as it was as you said, just so good, they got it after SMB3 as Mario USA.  It's truly a fantastic game, irks me people crap on it like it was some sick betrayal when it was so beloved before the internet shit the bed about it's so called checkered past. And even then after discovery, the real info pops up yet another decade later in an interview with the creator and gets ignored because it's hard to kill a bs story once it's going... big foot, loch ness monster, chupacabra...and fake mario 2.

[MegaMan52 | 2,462]

38 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

That and if you read decade old interviews from IGN and other translated sources I guess around the Wii 25th anniversary stuff Miyamoto was asked about the game and went into a bit.  He admitted as much it was his favorite from then, which stuck with me as I was shocked

Oh you thought that was shocking? Around the same time or a little later, Charles Martinet said Super Mario Sunshine was his favorite Mario game (some news articles said that, anyway). I don't think it's his favorite now, but apparently it was then. Another Mario game that many people hated on that got some respect.

I have to agree with him about it being underrated.

Edited July 22, 2022 by MegaMan52

[Tanooki | 4,953]

Yeah it's underrated, but in perspective, it's the most glitchy and problematic Mario 3D game of the entire lot of them, it really wasn't great for a Mario game, perhaps great by a random third parties standards given.  Time hasn't been kind, sucks even more on the Allstars package.  I won't even touch it after trying it a bit.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

11 hours ago, Tanooki said:

 I can even go as far as calling SMB3 a downgrade, visually speaking on the sprites, over SMB2 because it was.  What the hell they were thinking going from well rounded, beautifully drawn cartoon like sprites that matched more the look of the Cap'n Lou/Cartoon experience for this bland, lower detailed, beady eyed blank stared creature in SMB3 still doesn't sit well with me.

That's because SMB3 came first.  True fact: SMB3 was released in Japan before we got SMB2 in North America!  It also began its development earlier too.  Mario looking better in US SMB2 than SMB3 is the result of the natural and chronoligical progression of the character...

Edited July 22, 2022 by Dr. Morbis

[Tanooki | 4,953]

Definitely I do remember that, it was strange because back then we really had no clue as NP had a good lock on the info even keeping other magazines largely out of the loop.  Maybe an early oddball had it or one of the first EGM which few at that rate read did, but NP basically was it, especially on their own goods.  Likely why EGM got so utterly childish and snappy with their reviews, made up rumor mill bs, blowing out stuff like the Super Famicom and Mario World a good year before NP covered it as a fat middle finger for not getting their way and you know how immature kids(even grown kids) love to explode.

I get the winky face, it fits, even if you're kind of kidding there.

I just never got the idea why they'd step back from having such a lush and colorful cartoon style character to something more sharp and generic...it felt off in 1990, still feels off 30+ years later to me.  I don't hate it, I don't even dislike how SMB3 looks, I just think they took a step in reverse with some of the sprite models.

[Link | 2,743]

I think the flatter graphics approach could be analogous to cel-shading style now. It's like the visual style difference between Paper Mario and NSMB. 

Also, there's a fan theory that the whole Super Mario series is all a performance on a stage for us to watch. The title screen of SMB3 has the curtain go up, and it shows that in the game you can go behind the background like setpieces in a play. Just as you can run above the screen in SMB1. The flat look jives with that. 

[T-Pac | 7,594]

20 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Hot take: all (non-edutainment) Mario platformers are good.  All of them.  Even, like, NSMB2.  Fight me*.

*not really 

 

A positive opinion of games?
On a game forum?
BLASPHEMY!!

-CasualCart

[Tanooki | 4,953]

Thank you Mario but Reed is in another castle!  HAH

 

I do agree with the SMB3 style, it does seem very set piece, maybe the early mental (before realizing it) rumblings of what turned eventually into a working sold concept that is Paper Mario or even the crafty side of Yoshi and Kirby.  It definitely does have that layer upon layer thing going so anyone having that theory probably isn't off their mark, or at least just put more thought into it than the designers at the time.

[NostalgicMachine | 254]

22 hours ago, Link said:

I think the flatter graphics approach could be analogous to cel-shading style now. It's like the visual style difference between Paper Mario and NSMB. 

Also, there's a fan theory that the whole Super Mario series is all a performance on a stage for us to watch. The title screen of SMB3 has the curtain go up, and it shows that in the game you can go behind the background like setpieces in a play. Just as you can run above the screen in SMB1. The flat look jives with that. 

The end credits of SMB3 also allude to it being a play, as well.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

I much, much prefer playing Super Mario World overall. The fact alone that you can trek back and forth across the entire world map and replay any level really gives SMW that modern edge SMB3 needs.

 

edit: SMB2 is fantastic and is a true Mario game. My favorite of the NES Mario games.

Edited July 24, 2022 by WhyNotZoidberg
SMB2 awesomess

[AirVillain | 491]

On 7/21/2022 at 1:28 PM, Jeevan said:

I don't know about the lottery as the store opened early that day with people showing up to rent it, i wasn't there my brother was, he told me they drew out of a hat and he didn't get it.  We waited, we rented it, we eventually bought it.  

It has been a min. since i have really felt the need to put that game in my slot...... giggity........

i know world 4 pretty well as well, and world 5 too.  Once i beat the game, i really felt no need to go back as it didn't have that much of a draw after you beat it and got p wings for playthrough 2.

That being said, SMW always brought me back cuz it was so unique with all of its secret endings!

I was 7 when the game came out, i was much more into going outside than fighting to play video games   

 

Down right rude!

 

Yes SMB2 u.s. counts, it has mario, its a game, its a mario game from nintender themselves.  

Fair, I DON'T LIKE SMB1, AND SMB2 U.S., an actual game, IS THE BEST OF THE 3 NES MARIO GAMES!

Doesn't like zelda:  now we know what is wrong with you........I have a hot take on this as well

Alttp is and always will be the best zelda game from henceforth into the unseen future of all zelda games past, present and future!

I love the lottery system deal. 

Just joking with ya.

Yes... it seems the only thing SMW has going for it are those secret endings and being able to go ANYWHERE in the world map anytime. The map deal makes sense... Mario WORLD. 

 

 

On 7/21/2022 at 1:34 PM, Reed Rothchild said:

Hot take: all (non-edutainment) Mario platformers are good.  All of them.  Even, like, NSMB2.  Fight me*.

*not really 

 

No hot take... I agree.... BUT this is my exact point. SMB2 and SMW are good games, I agree with that 100%. But because of how amazing SMB3 is and how high it set the bar, they (SMB2 & SMW) can never be "great".  

 

On 7/21/2022 at 8:52 PM, the_wizard_666 said:

It's not that simple.  Gretzky had a career spanning two full decades, and never had less than 70 games played in a season.  He also suffered a marked decline in his final few years.  Lemieux, meanwhile, likely would've surpassed Gretzky had he remained healthy (he had a number of seasons under 60 games played, including 1990-91 when he played a mere 26 games, yet still had 45 points...this is two years removed from his 199 point year).  And let's not forget losing three seasons to lymphoma while he was still performing at a high level.  He came back and had 76 points in 42 games in 2000-01 after a three year hiatus.  Imagine the production he could've had if he had been healthy and not retired.  Hell, his numbers were still respectable in his final two years (9 points in 10 games in 2003-04, and 22 points in 26 games in 2005-06, when he was fucking 40 years old! 

Fun fact: Lemieux had a higher goals-per-game average than Gretzky did, despite losing several prime years and a ton of time to injury.  So for fun, I took that number and multiplied it by Gretzky's career games played.  Based on those calculations, the 500+ extra games Gretzky played would've put Lemieux's career goals at 1,121   While I doubt he would've hit THAT number, I do think that he had a legit shot at 1000 goals if he'd stayed healthy.

But yeah, they played completely different styles of games, and the wear and tear on Mario's body is proof of that.

 

Hate is a strong word, but I generally am not much of a fan.  I think it's the linearity of it...I wasn't into Mega Man either, and Simon's Quest was the only good Castlevania IMO until SotN came out.  Even games like Contra were pretty meh to me, unless I was playing 2-player.  It's probably why I gravitated to RPGs and action-adventure games more than anything even in my youth.

 

Let's not forget that it was good enough that Nintendo themselves brought it back to Japan on the Famicom...

Well, playing lots of hockey and longevity is also very important to legacy, and obviously # of points. But I get it, excellent points. 

Okay, interesting, so you're not into that style of linear game. All good. 

Just out of curiosity, what other games other than RPG's do you like? ... as the vast majority of decent games for NES (other than auto-scrollers & some sports games I suppose) are the linear platformer/shooters... NO Mario/Mega Man/Contra games....?  How about any in the Capcome Disney Set? 

If you're not playing Mega Man or Capcom Disney games, that's like 80 taken from your NES options alone, haha. 
 

On 7/21/2022 at 9:57 PM, Tanooki said:

That and if you read decade old interviews from IGN and other translated sources I guess around the Wii 25th anniversary stuff Miyamoto was asked about the game and went into a bit.  He admitted as much it was his favorite from then, which stuck with me as I was shocked, I figured he'd run to SMB3 or even 1 given it started it.  And then the fact the Doki Doki game started as a Mario sequel engine in alpha, and that's when Dream Factory/FujiTV approached them to do a video game for the huge event, and given they had the starter Mario engine going in alpha, they ran with it and they got that cool game, we got Mario 2 because well (another story), and as it was as you said, just so good, they got it after SMB3 as Mario USA.  It's truly a fantastic game, irks me people crap on it like it was some sick betrayal when it was so beloved before the internet shit the bed about it's so called checkered past. And even then after discovery, the real info pops up yet another decade later in an interview with the creator and gets ignored because it's hard to kill a bs story once it's going... big foot, loch ness monster, chupacabra...and fake mario 2.

SMB2 is a good game, no doubt. Let's not get too worked up here. It all depends on how you want to include it into the discussion, that's all. 

People being mean to SMB2 in general is rude and a bit uncalled for. It's not a bad game at all, and the fact that it wasn't the legit sequel to SMB doesn't upset me. It's still the sequel for us North American kids, which is good enough for me.

I like knowing the "true story" (about SMB2 being too hard and too similar so it got shot down by Nintendo of America) I think it's interesting. It doesn't make the game any less fun for me. Or wait, are you saying there's another REAL REAL story about it??? Hmmm... Please link me. 

When comparing it to the Lost Levels, I definitely like it more. 

If kids had gotten the OG sequel, maybe they would have hated it and not been as receptive to SMB3, so in a way I think it was certainly good to keep the NA market invested in Mario, and at the end of the day, it's a nice bit of variety in the series. 

But let's not get carried away and call SMB2 a "real" Mario game or a true "sequel" to SMB or even a true precursor to SMB3. 

 

On 7/23/2022 at 9:49 AM, WhyNotZoidberg said:

I much, much prefer playing Super Mario World overall. The fact alone that you can trek back and forth across the entire world map and replay any level really gives SMW that modern edge SMB3 needs.

 

edit: SMB2 is fantastic and is a true Mario game. My favorite of the NES Mario games.

Yeah, well... Super Mario World had to upgrade the map system somehow. Not even sure if the NES could have handled that? 

Hhhhmmmm..... Interesting, what is it about SMB2 that makes you like it the most? The fun characters? Use of Peach and Luigi (Toad and Mario I suppose can be included)? Fun bosses? 

I mean, the fact that you can play as Luigi and Princess, with their different abilities, is what makes it so neat. And the bosses are super cool and fun to play.

Again... unfortunate for SMB2, but because it must be compared to SMB3, it (SMB2) can never be "great".  

[Ankos | 467]

56 minutes ago, AirVillain said:

But let's not get carried away and call SMB2 a "real" Mario game

Considering how many times SMB 2 characters have appeared in other Mario titles, both main series and spinoffs, and how it got re-released as Super Mario Advance 1, I'd say it counts. They even took some mechanics from it and stuffed them in the e-Reader levels for the Super Mario Advance version of SMB3. It's definitely the odd one out for Mario platformers, but being different does not disqualify it from being Mario. Zelda 2 is super different from all the other Zelda games, but I don't think anyone would say it isn't a "real" Zelda game

[Tanooki | 4,953]

4 hours ago, Ankos said:

Considering how many times SMB 2 characters have appeared in other Mario titles, both main series and spinoffs, and how it got re-released as Super Mario Advance 1, I'd say it counts. They even took some mechanics from it and stuffed them in the e-Reader levels for the Super Mario Advance version of SMB3. It's definitely the odd one out for Mario platformers, but being different does not disqualify it from being Mario. Zelda 2 is super different from all the other Zelda games, but I don't think anyone would say it isn't a "real" Zelda game

Exactly.  The fact they years later admitted it was a prototype alpha for a Mario game was all I needed really to validate SMB2 (US release) as a legit Mario title no matter what the smarmy douchy snobs who turn up a nose to it love to go in circles about it being a fraud.  Their sorry opinion,if it even qualifies as one is bs given the makers/company made it quite clear eventually what it is, what it started as, and where it ended up.  And as you pointed out, the mechanics, the characters, even the multiple characters (later picked up in New SMB series) to choose from are all rooted in that title.  So much came from that game that went straight into the somewhat parallel developed SMB3 got as well.  The fact that around the interviews and the rest it showed up as the first mario game in the Advance series as you said is more than enough to seal the deal as it not being the fake.

It just is reality, SMB2 (FDS) was a pro version game with light upgrades visually, and that's really it.  Some of the stages with the random wind shifts and insane jumps and memorization required as things years later Mario hack makers did to troll people with 'kaizo' level challenge, yet again later done on the Super Mario Maker series too shared among its online pool.  The challenge was so nasty, and the game looked so dated against other releases from that year outside of Japan it would have harmed them a lot, potentially crippled the franchise outside of Japan because asking full price for a visual downgrade (against third party contemporaries) but with a challenge up there along with the nastiest stuff would have run off a lot of kids and broke trust in any blind sequel.  Imagine a Nintendo world where Mario floundered, relegated to like Metroid in Japan status here, where just a niche will play it and otherwise bypassed.  Zelda or something fresh would have been their #1 mascot game slapped into sports games, party games, etc.

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@Tanooki i don’t know if I buy that they were developing the mechanics in that prototype ( I may be remembering wrong but Tanabe was working on scrolling up and down platforming ) with a super Mario game in mind. They could have just decided to say that to support the idea that smb2 isn’t just a skin rip off.

miyamoto and the crew seems like they are always changing the origin stories of characters and games anyway.

Edited July 28, 2022 by docile tapeworm

[Tanooki | 4,953]

1 hour ago, docile tapeworm said:

@Tanooki i don’t know if I buy that they were developing the mechanics in that prototype ( I may be remembering wrong but Tanabe was working on scrolling up and down platforming ) with a super Mario game in mind. They could have just decided to say that to support the idea that smb2 isn’t just a skin rip off.

miyamoto and the crew seems like they are always changing the origin stories of characters and games anyway.

You're quoting it pretty right, that's what it was, an alpha engine to do something different with a Mario game, they wanted to have the option of verticality, like I guess the silver box duo of Metroid and Kid Icarus adopted to give variety.  Maybe they threw it in to support Mario, it's possible, given I think the interview was probably about when the 25th hit with the bit Allstars Wii package and Mario shaded red Wii with Sports+New SMB packed in to it.  I could just have been dangling a carrot for interest.  I'd like to believe it's true, given they hardly struggle to peddle Mario games in the Wii era.

[Tulpa | 3,537]

2 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

They could have just decided to say that to support the idea that smb2 isn’t just a skin rip off.

Why would they do that? It makes no sense. No one cared about skin ripoffs back then.

[Link | 2,743]

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/04/the-secret-history-of-super-mario-bros-2