Heritage Auctions Thread

[AdamW | 713]

21 minutes ago, 3rdStrongestMole said:

Oh yeah, this makes sense. I don't doubt that.  I was trying to combat the point that SE was artificially inflated somehow. You see things like this in every collectable market. But,  to this point,  Super Mario 64 is supposedly worth 1.5 milli and its not rare. And if it's a condition thing, the Wagner scored a 3 and still hit that number.  A mint Mantel rookie sold for I think a million less? My point is, the rare shit ass card sold for more than the uber popular mint rookie card... 

The logic here does not explain the SM64 sale. Possibly the Zelda and or SMB sale, but this Mario 64 thing is anomalous bull shit. 

At that point you're into condition gymnastics, which is why I said it could go either way. Wagner is just rare in any condition, so any instance of it is worth a lot. SM64 is not rare in any condition, so a crappy CIB is never likely to be worth much, but it could possibly turn out to be pretty rare in a 9.8 A+. If WATA's rep holds out for the long term, or if it crosses successfully to whatever agency comes next. If no-one finds a warehouse full of 'em. It's a gamble! It'll be hard to evaluate how the buyer did for at least, I dunno, 10-20 years.

But hey, if we're talking about rapid price appreciation and market shenanigans, the Wagner wikipedia page makes interesting reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T206_Honus_Wagner

The highest price paid for a Wagner appears to have gone from $640,000 in 1996 to $3.12m in 2016 to $6.6m this month, which isn't bad going for a 110 year old baseball card, I guess. Also, "In October 2013, Bill Mastro, CEO of Mastro Auctions (the owner of Robert Edward Auctions) pleaded guilty to mail fraud in U.S. District Court and later admitted to the court that he had trimmed the "Gretzky" Wagner card to sharply increase its value."

oh, and guess who owns the one that was auctioned by a bunch of nuns in 2010? These guys:

https://rallyrd.com/collections/1909-1911-t206-honus-wagner-card/

edit: oh, also, I don't know a lot about card grading, but from a quick two minutes' Google, a card as old as a Wagner could never grade very high because printing standards just don't match modern ones. The article on the $6.6m sale says only four Wagners have graded more than a 3 ever.

Edited August 25, 2021 by AdamW

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

1 minute ago, AdamW said:

But hey, if we're talking about rapid price appreciation and market shenanigans, the Wagner wikipedia page makes interesting reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T206_Honus_Wagner

The highest price paid for a Wagner appears to have gone from $640,000 in 1996 to $3.12m in 2016 to $6.6m this month, which isn't bad going for a 110 year old baseball card, I guess. Also, "In October 2013, Bill Mastro, CEO of Mastro Auctions (the owner of Robert Edward Auctions) pleaded guilty to mail fraud in U.S. District Court and later admitted to the court that he had trimmed the "Gretzky" Wagner card to sharply increase its value."

oh, and guess who owns the one that was auctioned by a bunch of nuns in 2010? These guys:

https://rallyrd.com/collections/1909-1911-t206-honus-wagner-card/

At this point, the one setting new records isn't the same trimmed one Gretzky owned in the 90s.

[AdamW | 713]

4 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

At this point, the one setting new records isn't the same trimmed one Gretzky owned in the 90s.

No, but the article on it does give a potted history of its pricing:

"McKie paid $1,100 for the T206 Wagner in 1973. In 1976, he sold it for $2,500. Early Monday, McKie watched the rare card he once owned take the record.

"I've known the exact card sold for $1.2 million in 2012," McKie told ESPN. "Every time it goes, it goes for more and more."

so it went from $1.2m in 2012 to $6.6m this month.

[Zach | 186]

17 hours ago, B.A. said:

It was asked earlier specifically if anyone here would still defend Deniz. Well the video was a nicely done summary, but there is nothing in it that anyone following this thread didn't already know. 

-Deniz is a shameless self promoter.

-Heritage guy is dirty.

-The Carolina Collection was a terrible idea.

-WATA should release population reports. 

I knew all that stuff already. The hobby isn't ruined for me. I don't have any WATA games and don't intend to. 

Or maybe he's got me fooled and I've just been mind manulipated as part of the master plan. 

Or maybe you depend on him as an avenue to acquire rare games so you're too scare too call out his unethical business practices 

[Zach | 186]

16 hours ago, jonebone said:

I'll add one detailed counter response if anyone cares to read.  

You have to watch until the 51 minute part until the agenda becomes clear, he admits hating graded games.  Compare this to any real investigative journalism like 20/20 where they interview all parties, he never bothered to reach out to any of the people he was tarnishing.  Even CNN and professional sites will at least say that so-and-so said "No Comment", when asked; we didn't even get that.

His "experts" (Pat / Other guy) both hate grading, not to mention Pat is a hypocrite who tried to pump his NWCs on Pawn Stars eons ago.  Now Wata does it and he cries foul.  Why not interview some actual graded collectors who have collected for a decade plus and get their thoughts on how wacky or sane this market is?  Asking a cart collector for opinions on sealed games is like having your English teacher grade your math homework.

When Deniz mentioned Wata to me years ago I wished him luck and thought he was a few years too late.  We were right off the NES classic which tanked loose cart values and the gamers had their fix in hacking them.  What was left were the collectors and the market was very stagnant, no new blood coming in.

I severely underestimated their marketing though.  It was as simple as take a Wata prototype case to a bunch of comic shows around the country and get people to buy in.  It's not collusion, it's about a college kid having a business plan, marketing that idea and then entering into exclusive deals so his brand would outperform VGA.  Perhaps he underestimated the public outcry from having big name investors like Halperin / Gocollect be named on filing reports, but those guys are just investors and not employees in the day to day operations.

As far as "pumping" in general?  What do you want people to say?  Of course sealed collectors believe the hobby will go up. I knew we'd have a million dollar game in my lifetime, though I expected to be in my 50s (I'm 37).  If you want to blame the massive acceleration fine... but the values were going to get there one day anyway.  I personally think that fractional ownership is a MUCH bigger force behind acceleration than collusion, but to each their own.  At least the owner did note that, as that is a big contributor to where we are.

But end of day of course you are going to believe in your vision.  It's like when you work at a company and they give you stock options.  You want your company to perform well so the stock options are worth more.  Does that make you a manipulator?  Same here, he loves collecting and wanted the hobby to grow.  In doing so Wata has naturally grown as well and values have taken off.  It's what came first the chicken or the egg?  He didn't make up values to grow his business, the market has created their values by using HA and Wata and those companies naturally reap the benefits.

End of day believe what you want, but if the news articles are guilty of "pumping" the market then this article is guilty of attempting to short with a lot of finger pointing and not speaking to anyone really in the know. 

lol this is such a classic NintendoAge response 

 

"You just made the video because you hate graded games...youre probably JEALOUS!"

 

Seriously why don't you fuck off? No one in this hobby wants people like you around anymore. You're a cancer. 

 

I can't wait for one of these assholes to end up in jail only to see another turd like you pop up and say "hey I always thought he was a genuine, humble collector! That judge who sentenced him is just jealous of his graded games!" You are so unbelievably delusional.

 

[OptOut | 8,884]

5 minutes ago, Zach said:

Or maybe you depend on him as an avenue to acquire rare games so you're too scare too call out his unethical business practices 

 

1 minute ago, Zach said:

lol this is such a classic NintendoAge response 

 

"You just made the video because you hate graded games...youre probably JEALOUS!"

 

Seriously why don't you fuck off? No one in this hobby wants people like you around anymore. You're a cancer. 

 

I can't wait for one of these assholes to end up in jail only to see another turd like you pop up and say "hey I always thought he was a genuine, humble collector! That judge who sentenced him is just jealous of his graded games!" You are so unbelievably delusional.

 

Woof, hoo boy!

Anyone else get the feeling like it's the last days of Rome in here? 

We've had an AMAZING run with this thread, first Million Dollar video game... Dunking on @cromag27 and @Gulag Joe and all the other sports cards bros... Making awesome friends with @Dumars2001... The complete REKING of the WATA/HA cartel... So many precious memories... 

Anyway, I've got a great nose for getting InB4 the lock! See you on the other side brothers!

[Gulag Joe | 582]

I heard the pop data that leaked out of wata shows that Stadium Events isn't as rare as everyone thinks it is.

[CIB_Wholesale | 418]

2 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

I heard the pop data that leaked out of wata shows that Stadium Events isn't as rare as everyone thinks it is.

is it fun if u play with the hand controller or the glove

[AdamW | 713]

4 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

I heard the pop data that leaked out of wata shows that Stadium Events isn't as rare as everyone thinks it is.

no, it doesn't show that.

[Gulag Joe | 582]

2 minutes ago, SealedWholesale said:

is it fun if u play with the hand controller or the glove

I've never played it. It's too rare for me!

[Gloves | 11,779]

9 minutes ago, Zach said:

lol this is such a classic NintendoAge response 

 

"You just made the video because you hate graded games...youre probably JEALOUS!"

 

Seriously why don't you fuck off? No one in this hobby wants people like you around anymore. You're a cancer. 

 

I can't wait for one of these assholes to end up in jail only to see another turd like you pop up and say "hey I always thought he was a genuine, humble collector! That judge who sentenced him is just jealous of his graded games!" You are so unbelievably delusional.

 

Let's not tell people to fuck off or call people cancer. We can be civil here and not throw dirt. Jone's either sharing his genuine opinion, or trying to pump the market. Maybe both?

In EITHER case, he's a user on this forum and we have a no harassment policy. You can disagree with him, but no attacks. Consider this a friendly warning. I'll happily protect your ability to argue with Jone and others all day, you can disagree and say that companies are manipulating markets, all that's fine. But don't personally attack people.

Aside, Jone makes GOOD points. I don't like grading myself, but his point about Karl not reaching out to the people he's pointing the finger at to get their take is a fair one, and not something I initially considered. I DO like Karl's style of simply presenting the facts in a pretty unbiased way. Counter to Jone's argument, it's probably good that Karl doesn't go into his personal distaste for grading games until the last few minutes, so the rest can be taken at face value and you can form your own opinions. I'll say however that Karl Jobst is certainly very far from being a collector in the same vein as most people here on VGS; if he doesn't like grading games, it's probably from a purely speculative mindset, he doesn't (to my knowledge) have any horses in the game at all.

[Gulag Joe | 582]

1 minute ago, AdamW said:

no, it doesn't show that.

It shows there are far more SE than there are Mario 64 9.8 A++.

[OptOut | 8,884]

3 minutes ago, AdamW said:

no, it doesn't show that.

Aww, that's cute you're actually trying to engage with him in good faith!

Don't feed the troll dear. 

[AdamW | 713]

1 minute ago, Gulag Joe said:

It shows there are far more SE than there are Mario 64 9.8 A++.

it doesn't prove anything either way on that, because it included no grade information. but the number of copies of SE it indicated is a fairly small one, and probably an amount that's pretty well known to the kinds of people who'd be in the market to buy one.

[CIB_Wholesale | 418]

7 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

It shows there are far more SE than there are Mario 64 9.8 A++.

there are a lot of completion nes collectors and that's the hardest one. but they show up in auction for sure.

it's easy to sell like sculptors cut or SE. i would rather play both of those than read a comic tho

so the value  more about the history of the franchise. bandai is great!

Edited August 25, 2021 by SealedWholesale

[TDIRunner | 2,740]

Can anyone time stamp the part where he specifically "admits hating graded games."  I keep missing it.  

[BriGuy82 | 768]

27 minutes ago, Zach said:

lol this is such a classic NintendoAge response 

 

"You just made the video because you hate graded games...youre probably JEALOUS!"

 

Seriously why don't you fuck off? No one in this hobby wants people like you around anymore. You're a cancer. 

 

I can't wait for one of these assholes to end up in jail only to see another turd like you pop up and say "hey I always thought he was a genuine, humble collector! That judge who sentenced him is just jealous of his graded games!" You are so unbelievably delusional.

 

But how do you really feel? Don't hold back be honest.

[B.A. | 1,139]

34 minutes ago, Zach said:

Or maybe you depend on him as an avenue to acquire rare games so you're too scare too call out his unethical business practices 

Ha, yeah that must be it. You've got me all figured out. Glad you decided to join Zack Attack. Welcome to the site!

[Gulag Joe | 582]

9 minutes ago, AdamW said:

it doesn't prove anything either way on that, because it included no grade information. but the number of copies of SE it indicated is a fairly small one, and probably an amount that's pretty well known to the kinds of people who'd be in the market to buy one.

The scraped data didn't include grade info. The leaked data did.

[Gloves | 11,779]

6 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

Can anyone time stamp the part where he specifically "admits hating graded games."  I keep missing it.  

Jone claims it's after the 51 minute mark, however he never actually says he hates grading games. He feels it's disgusting that people have turned the hobby into a money scheme. Link to 51 minutes here:

 

@jonebone if you wanna clarify what quote you're referring to that'd be cool, as I can't personally agree that he has any agenda or anything at all against grading games. Likely if you spoke to him he'd probably have nothing against the preservation aspects of doing so, based on my knowledge of him (years of watching his channel / following his speedrunning journey).

[spacepup | 2,404]

A general reminder to folks.  Obviously this is a big topic that people want to talk about, and that's great.  I think there is some good discussion, and clearly there are very passionate people on all sides of this issue.  I want people to feel open and welcome to share their honest feelings, even if a heated debate.

But let's please keep personal attacks out of it, and talk about things like adults.  Thank you.

[AdamW | 713]

2 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

The scraped data didn't include grade info. The leaked data did.

oh, I don't know what leaked data you're referring to, in this case. Haven't heard anything about that.

[OptOut | 8,884]

8 minutes ago, AdamW said:

oh, I don't know what leaked data you're referring to, in this case. Haven't heard anything about that.

He's full of shit dude, he's got nothing.

How many 9.8 A++ Stadium Events have they graded then @Gulag Joe?

[TDIRunner | 2,740]

14 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Jone claims it's after the 51 minute mark, however he never actually says he hates grading games. He feels it's disgusting that people have turned the hobby into a money scheme. Link to 51 minutes here:

That's pretty much what I was getting at.  I rewatched the end multiple times (starting around 50 minutes to be safe) and couldn't find it.  I'm in agreement that contacting someone at WATA or Heritage would have been good for the video, but I'm having trouble accepting an "obvious agenda."  The quote about "admits hating graded games"  has been shared many times in this thread, and due to the overall length of the video, I think many people are accepting that quote as a fact and not checking for themselves.  

Edited August 25, 2021 by TDIRunner

[jonebone | 1,307]

12 minutes ago, Gloves said:

 

@jonebone if you wanna clarify what quote you're referring to that'd be cool, as I can't personally agree that he has any agenda or anything at all against grading games. Likely if you spoke to him he'd probably have nothing against the preservation aspects of doing so, based on my knowledge of him (years of watching his channel / following his speedrunning journey).

The exact quotes that made me think he hates graded games:

"As someone who does care deeply about gaming, it honestly sickens me that these people have turned these cherished possessions into a means to gamble and speculate", while the exact backdrop shown is graded games.

I suppose one can argue that I am making a jump from "these cherished possessions" equaling graded games, as the type of speculation and gambling that he references is not prevalent in non-graded. But the prior 30 seconds is him showing loose carts being listed for $1000, which we all know has no bearing on the market when they auction for $30 all day long, but that was my take on the article at least.