Californication | 1,477 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 2 hours ago, SealedWholesale said: can you match those sale prices? i tried to sell them at 20% and got 0 interest This is the most interesting comment for me. Because if the auctions are an approximate represention of market value because multiple people are willing to bid than similar examples should be earning similar excessive returns. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncofantd793 | 138 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 32 minutes ago, jonebone said: Except toothpicks are infinite goods, and games are actually finite. Oh and toothpicks are more or less exactly identical in condition, where the finite supply bevomes ever smaller Mint. Todd and John cant create the hobby unless 1000s of people play under them as well. If Todd and John create 1000 followers overnight with no knowledge of the hobby, then it's very risky. In our hobby if you stick to the 1000 number, I'd say it's roughly half and half of well-informed collector vs. complete novice. Even people who have only been around 2 years at this point have a decent read of the market. And even if you are a complete novice, it's you choosing to spend your money correct? Sure argue for more transparency, I'm not going to argue that. But huge difference between asking for more transparency and calling them scammers or fraud and what not. Again, not focusing on the money. We're focusing on ethics. I chose toothpicks as the simplest item I could think of to highlight the behavior of the individuals. I could've built my example around real estate, cards, swampland, stamps, etc. I went bare bones to flush it out. For fun though, are all toothpicks in identical condition? I would think not, especially after use. We're just on opposite ends of this. To be fair, I'm going to come to Jone's defense a tiny bit here. There's different niche collecting circles within video games. Jone has a comparatively large number of sealed and/or graded games compared to most of us. My assumption is some of those were probably pretty expensive. Is he supposed to sit at home and hope all of his games are now worthless? He has an interest in WATA/HA that most of us do not have. Would any of you not defend your point of view if you were him? Remember his position. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vb337 | 13 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 16 minutes ago, Californication said: This is the most interesting comment for me. Because if the auctions are an approximate represention of market value because multiple people are willing to bid than similar examples should be earning similar excessive returns. You don't think there's a legitimacy difference between one of the biggest auction companies in the world and some guy on the internet? 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 2 hours ago, ExplodedHamster said: As a seller of numerous high end items via auction, all I know is I got paid, and I also know at least one of the buyers for a number. And how much did WATA and Heritage get paid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 (edited) A lot. The value of the press releases is not even quantifiable. The value of how much Wata can now charge any Joe Schmo with a raw mario 64. Very large amounts of money. The more I think about everything, the more disgusted I become. The defending is just nonsensical at this point tbh. Edited August 25, 2021 by WalterWhiteJr. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californication | 1,477 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, vb337 said: You don't think there's a legitimacy difference between one of the biggest auction companies in the world and some guy on the internet? I don't think legitimacy is the right word. Legitimacy from a buyers perspective right or wrong comes from the grading. Because buyers are used to purchasing on H/A and know to look for sealed games on H/A they can demand a premium in auction situations. But they also charge premium fees which should increase the discounted price from not selling on H/A. A buyer buys something because they recognize value or future value you wouldn't limit yourself to purchases in the most expensive place sealed games are sold. We should be seeing silly comparable sales on Ebay. Edited August 25, 2021 by Californication 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremiahJT | 75 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Has WATA and Heritage Auctions made the news with copies of Stadium Events, Little Samson, or The Flintstones: Surprise at Dinosaur Peak? All the games that have broke these records have been common mass produced games. Sure some have been rarer variants, but all the games have been common. This to me points to manipulation. If they make the news for a $2,000,000 Stadium Events they do not make any more money outside of that one copy. There are no more sealed copies for people to send in. They make the news with a Super Mario 64 or a Legend of Zelda then every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a sealed copy of those (of which there are still plenty out there) send in their copy of those games and they pay for them to be graded at a value of what just sold (taking into account condition and variant). And remember WATA charges based on the value of the game. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 2 hours ago, darkchylde28 said: The heads of WATA and HA teaming up to buy the record breaking item, specifically for record breaking money, then leaving out those details when going on and on about it to the media absolutely SCREAMS fabrication. There might have been other early speculators who weren't sure about what values might or ought to be, but they weren't the ones setting the bar where it ended up--the people creating and/or controlling the market saw to that. But, uh, they didn't "leave out those details". HA's press release literally lists Halperin as one of the buyers. Putting out a press release with your name on it is a funny way to pull off undercover market manipulation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Californication said: I don't think legitimacy is the right word. Legitimacy from a buyers perspective right or wrong comes from the grading. Because buyers are used to purchasing on H/A and know to look for sealed games on H/A they can demand a premium in auction situations. But they also charge premium fees which should increase the discounted price from not selling on H/A. A buyer buys something because they recognize value or future value you wouldn't limit yourself to purchases in the most expensive place sealed games are sold. We should be seeing silly comparable sales on Ebay. On the whole we do. At least in the games I follow, which is mostly Pokémon. I found eBay and HA prices track fairly close. There are even multiple instances of people buying from HA and flipping on eBay for a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriGuy82 | 768 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 On 8/23/2021 at 3:31 PM, Gloves said: Further to this: If you don't have an hour, just skip to the 28:12 timestamp and honestly watch the next like 5-10 minutes. Again, stuff we were pretty generally aware of, but framed quite well. It's funny, I remember being the only one questioning Dain directly on NA if he was having his games graded by WATA and then literally getting harassed by every mod on that site. Seems like the sentiment has changed quite a bit within the last few years. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 hour ago, AdamW said: undercover market manipulation... Are you denying market manipulation on behalf of Wata, Heritage, Deniz, and others? Serious question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: Are you denying market manipulation on behalf of Wata, Heritage, Deniz, and others? Serious question. Well, for a start it depends what you mean by "market manipulation". If we were talking about a market regulated by the SEC or equivalent, then that's a term with an actual hard definition you can reason about. In sealed video games, what does it mean? What specifically are you alleging under the term "market manipulation"? I can't really answer the question without that being clear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriGuy82 | 768 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 On 8/23/2021 at 3:31 PM, Gloves said: Further to this: If you don't have an hour, just skip to the 28:12 timestamp and honestly watch the next like 5-10 minutes. Again, stuff we were pretty generally aware of, but framed quite well. @arch_8ngeldid you happen to see this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarMech | 82 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 good lord I have missed a lot apparently. Egad... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, AdamW said: Well, for a start it depends what you mean by "market manipulation". If we were talking about a market regulated by the SEC or equivalent, then that's a term with an actual hard definition you can reason about. In sealed video games, what does it mean? What specifically are you alleging under the term "market manipulation"? I can't really answer the question without that being clear. Except by answering that way, your answer is actually pretty clear. Did you watch this video? Were any of the facts presented inaccurate? Can you refute any of the evidence Karl presents? What do you think of Deniz on Pawn Stars? What do you think of all the quotes from Deniz pumping up the values? How is that not manipulating the market? Just my opinion but if any person can look at all of the known information about this situation and not see the market manipulating bullshit for what it is, they are being willfully ignorant. Probably because they have skin in the game. 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Market manipulation is a type of market abuse where there is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the free and fair operation of the market; the most blatant of cases involve creating false or misleading appearances with respect to the price of, or market for, a product, security or commodity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 hour ago, JeremiahJT said: Has WATA and Heritage Auctions made the news with copies of Stadium Events, Little Samson, or The Flintstones: Surprise at Dinosaur Peak? All the games that have broke these records have been common mass produced games. Sure some have been rarer variants, but all the games have been common. This to me points to manipulation. If they make the news for a $2,000,000 Stadium Events they do not make any more money outside of that one copy. There are no more sealed copies for people to send in. They make the news with a Super Mario 64 or a Legend of Zelda then every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a sealed copy of those (of which there are still plenty out there) send in their copy of those games and they pay for them to be graded at a value of what just sold (taking into account condition and variant). And remember WATA charges based on the value of the game. This has been discussed a lot for months now. There's a reasonable explanation that does not require a conspiracy. The games you mention are only really of any interest to full set NES collectors. That's a fairly limited, mature and stable pool of people at this point. There is very likely never going to be a flood of new NES full set collectors driving up end-user demand for those titles. It's much more likely the pool of full set NES collectors will gradually decline as people age out of it, driving those prices down, if anything. This is exactly what's happened/happening to Atari demand, after all. Nobody who grew up on a later console is ever likely to be interested in fullsetting the NES. If you're a new entrant treating the market as an investment opportunity, what that means is that rare NES games are a bad investment. They have a lot of downside (they're expensive already) and very limited upside (because it seems highly unlikely demand for them will ever increase significantly from where it is). To those people, your Marios and Pokemon's and early entries in still-current franchises are a much more attractive investment, because they have much higher upside potential. Nintendo very well might be still making Mario games in 50 years, and in 80 years a kid who wasn't born till 2065 might start collecting Mario games. That kid is not gonna want a Stadium Events, but they very well might want an SMB. This is the upside current speculators are looking at, that does not exist for Stadium Events at all. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood | 209 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloves | 11,779 Administrator · Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 The real scam nobody is talking about is how I market manipulated VGS Likes by closing down the threads people made and redirecting them to my own post of the video in this thread. Classic abuse of power, I'm all about those Likes! Please someone like me... 4 1 2 1 7 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Gloves said: Please someone like me... You grew on me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloves | 11,779 Administrator · Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Just now, CodysGameRoom said: You grew on me. D'aw. You're sure it's not just a wart? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inasuma | 1,203 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Driftwood said: bamboozle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodysGameRoom | 2,008 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Just now, Gloves said: D'aw. You're sure it's not just a wart? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickman | 3,986 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said: Just my opinion but if any person can look at all of the known information about this situation and not see the market manipulating bullshit for what it is, they are being willfully ignorant. Probably because they have skin in the game. This is what is blowing my mind too. People are given the evidence in the video in a rather simple format with actual links to the information and they some how still think Deniz, HA and WATA are stand up people/companies. How blind do people have to be? 8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloves | 11,779 Administrator · Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 minute ago, CodysGameRoom said: 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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