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Heritage Auctions Thread


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6 minutes ago, JeremiahJT said:

There is a difference here. Pat went on Pawn Stars to show off his game. Deniz went on Pawn Stars as an "expert" to assign a value. As I recall from the video he assigned a value higher than what had ever been payed. Whatever the case, he had a vested interest in setting the value as high as be could. Not setting an accurate one.

 

If you cannot see the difference there then you really do not understand this topic.

Deniz knew of a buyer that was interested and that's what they said they'd pay for it. He didn't assign a value that was pulled out of thin air. And it was indeed an accurate value. 

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12 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

I don’t think they are saying all the sales are fake and that is certainly not what I’m saying. I believe the video points out that the sales that started the prices going up exponentially were fabricated. 
 

WATA being bought by another company would not exonerate them from past unethical behavior. I’m not even saying there has been unethical behavior, I’m just saying there is some very convincing evidence that has been presented and a number of people agree. 
 

Edit: I think all that can be said has and I will reply if anyone asks me direct questions but I think this horse has been beaten dead for me. 

I don’t know that I’d say “fabricated,” so much as early speculators from other hobbies competing without much knowledge base. Or with some and comparing those believed pops with those in other collectibles. Many of the early buyers were transparent on various forums and well known from other hobbies.

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19 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Again, the “WATA/HA” thing…WATA was just purchased by PSA’s parent company, which owns HA’s competition, Goldin Auctions. In fact, here is a video Goldin just created:

 

I am trying to give you disclosure and transparency regarding some of these sales, and I feel I am in a better position to do so than Karl Jobst. The other stuff and all that, people will all have opinions and that’s fine, but I can assure you my sales were “real,” at least in the sense someone sent in games and got paid. 
 

In a larger context, you see what other collectibles go for and it’s really not that crazy anymore. This isn’t 2005, everything has gone nutty.

No. It IS that crazy dude. Couldn’t disagree more. 

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4 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

No. It IS that crazy dude. Couldn’t disagree more. 

I mean a baseball card just sold for 6 mil and a multiple football cards have hit 3 mil or so in the past few months. Prior records were like 20% of these values just a couple years ago. Same with shoes, movie items, Pokemon stuff, it’s all across the board. Lots of rich young folk from bitcoin is my theory.

Bitcoin is actually pretty similar tbh. It’s an addictive fomo ride.

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2 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

I mean a baseball card just sold for 6 mil and a multiple football cards have hit 3 mil or so in the past few months. Prior records were like 20% of these values just a couple years ago. Same with shoes, movie items, Pokemon stuff, it’s all across the board. Lots of rich young folk from bitcoin is my theory.

I’m sorry but there’s nothing you can say or do to convince me that a Mario 64 going from $10/20k to $1.6M in 7 months is not crazy. Agree to disagree. 

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2 hours ago, guitarzombie said:

I have to admit I don't know the person personally, but I've always believed where there's smoke theres fire.  In my experience, good people don't surround themselves with 'questionable' people. 

Bingo.  There's being naive and believing you're doing good at the beginning, but I have serious issues believing anybody is so naive that in 4 years of operation they never figured out how the sausage was being made and what part they were playing in it.  At some point, if you weren't intentionally complicit in the beginning, what's really going on dawns on you and if you continue on, you're absolutely complicit with the shadiness afoot.

2 hours ago, B.A. said:

I'm not him so I'm not going to speak for him. I think he really believes the hyperbole he says though. Does that make it market manipulation? Or enthusism? I roll my eyes at a lot of it, but I don't think graded comics and cards should be worth as much as they sell for either. So what do I know. 

The facts and examples laid down in the video make an awfully solid case for market manipulation.  The WATA/HA guys teaming up to buy that first "record breaker" and thus guaranteeing his predictions coming true should have been the canary in the coal mine for him and is absolutely market manipulation.

2 hours ago, B.A. said:

-Deniz is a shameless self promoter.

-Heritage guy is dirty.

At some point these things cross over, as they're both fueling one another.  Knowingly allowing members of WATA to grade then sell off their own stuff via the machine they created, despite the supposedly set in stone policy specifically disallowing that...there's absolutely no way anyone is that naive, at least not for that long.

1 hour ago, JVOSS said:

with WATA/GVN and OLD NA it was profiteering at the finest.  wata control every point from the valuation to the certification to the sale.  they were/are able to dictate any price for any retro/new game.

and the sad fact is that we all every single one of us support them/him in someway or another over the last 10 years, EVERYONE.

Uhh...no.  If you can show how my existing on the old site and continuing to quietly pick up video games here and there without really discussing it with anybody on that site or who was part of that site somehow fueled all of this, lay it on me.  And I imagine there are more than a few others with the same/similar stories.  If you're talking about folks specifically in the buy/sell/trade/discuss/analyze/etc. sealed games arena, then...maybe, or at least you'd be a lot closer to correct in your assumption.  But not EVERYONE had anything to do with this, not even a little bit.

7 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Again, the “WATA/HA” thing…WATA was just purchased by PSA’s parent company, which owns HA’s competition, Goldin Auctions. In fact, here is a video Goldin just created:

I am trying to give you disclosure and transparency regarding some of these sales, and I feel I am in a better position to do so than Karl Jobst. The other stuff and all that, people will all have opinions and that’s fine, but I can assure you my sales were “real,” at least in the sense someone sent in games and got paid. 

And people are supposed to forget about all of the shady stuff that's gone on between those two companies, and the market they essentially created (rapidly ballooned, anyway), just because one of the two parties is now owned by someone else?  Who's to say that the issues of lack of transparency and potential (likely?) corruption won't spread?  The research shown in the video at the core of this newly reignited discussion shows how Halperin and the original coin slabbing company got caught out for the type of things folks are discussing and complaining about right now, and then how two other, technically unrelated companies came along a few years afterward to continue the work that Halperin's original slabbing company began.

As for your sales, you're able to show transparency insofar as you sold your stuff and didn't buy it back from yourself.  Was it ever actually, officially, certifiably revealed to you who your buyers were?  I thought I remember in the thread about the Mario N64 you saying something about how payment came through WATA and all they told you was that they were very confident with the buyer, leaving you in the dark as to who they specifically were.  Even if that information was available via WATA at the time of the auction's close (versus someone reaching out afterward to say, "Oh, hey, that was me, thanks," because honestly, who knows for certain whether that would be true or if there was some passing of the proverbial football in between), I'm nearly certain that you wouldn't/didn't have visibility on the identities of all of the bidders from start to finish, leaving the question of whether there was shill bidding in the mix or not still up in the air.  Seeing as there was specifically a payout from HA to someone accusing them of exactly that, I'm looking at that particular currently unproven accusation as "where there's smoke, there's fire."

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9 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

I don’t know that I’d say “fabricated,” so much as early speculators from other hobbies competing without much knowledge base. Or with some and comparing those believed pops with those in other collectibles. Many of the early buyers were transparent on various forums and well known from other hobbies.

The heads of WATA and HA teaming up to buy the record breaking item, specifically for record breaking money, then leaving out those details when going on and on about it to the media absolutely SCREAMS fabrication.  There might have been other early speculators who weren't sure about what values might or ought to be, but they weren't the ones setting the bar where it ended up--the people creating and/or controlling the market saw to that.

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Just now, darkchylde28 said:

Bingo.  There's being naive and believing you're doing good at the beginning, but I have serious issues believing anybody is so naive that in 4 years of operation they never figured out how the sausage was being made and what part they were playing in it.  At some point, if you weren't intentionally complicit in the beginning, what's really going on dawns on you and if you continue on, you're absolutely complicit with the shadiness afoot.

The facts and examples laid down in the video make an awfully solid case for market manipulation.  The WATA/HA guys teaming up to buy that first "record breaker" and thus guaranteeing his predictions coming true should have been the canary in the coal mine for him and is absolutely market manipulation.

At some point these things cross over, as they're both fueling one another.  Knowingly allowing members of WATA to grade then sell off their own stuff via the machine they created, despite the supposedly set in stone policy specifically disallowing that...there's absolutely no way anyone is that naive, at least not for that long.

Uhh...no.  If you can show how my existing on the old site and continuing to quietly pick up video games here and there without really discussing it with anybody on that site or who was part of that site somehow fueled all of this, lay it on me.  And I imagine there are more than a few others with the same/similar stories.  If you're talking about folks specifically in the buy/sell/trade/discuss/analyze/etc. sealed games arena, then...maybe, or at least you'd be a lot closer to correct in your assumption.  But not EVERYONE had anything to do with this, not even a little bit.

And people are supposed to forget about all of the shady stuff that's gone on between those two companies, and the market they essentially created (rapidly ballooned, anyway), just because one of the two parties is now owned by someone else?  Who's to say that the issues of lack of transparency and potential (likely?) corruption won't spread?  The research shown in the video at the core of this newly reignited discussion shows how Halperin and the original coin slabbing company got caught out for the type of things folks are discussing and complaining about right now, and then how two other, technically unrelated companies came along a few years afterward to continue the work that Halperin's original slabbing company began.

As for your sales, you're able to show transparency insofar as you sold your stuff and didn't buy it back from yourself.  Was it ever actually, officially, certifiably revealed to you who your buyers were?  I thought I remember in the thread about the Mario N64 you saying something about how payment came through WATA and all they told you was that they were very confident with the buyer, leaving you in the dark as to who they specifically were.  Even if that information was available via WATA at the time of the auction's close (versus someone reaching out afterward to say, "Oh, hey, that was me, thanks," because honestly, who knows for certain whether that would be true or if there was some passing of the proverbial football in between), I'm nearly certain that you wouldn't/didn't have visibility on the identities of all of the bidders from start to finish, leaving the question of whether there was shill bidding in the mix or not still up in the air.  Seeing as there was specifically a payout from HA to someone accusing them of exactly that, I'm looking at that particular currently unproven accusation as "where there's smoke, there's fire."

I never said payment came through WATA, I was paid through HA as it standard. I know the buyer of the Zelda and that he/she was aggressive on other items as well. I do not know the Mario 64 buyer, so I am hoping that person eventually comes forward. I am pretty confident I know the underbidder, but cannot swear to it. 
 

 

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12 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

The heads of WATA and HA teaming up to buy the record breaking item, specifically for record breaking money, then leaving out those details when going on and on about it to the media absolutely SCREAMS fabrication.  There might have been other early speculators who weren't sure about what values might or ought to be, but they weren't the ones setting the bar where it ended up--the people creating and/or controlling the market saw to that.

I don’t think “fabrication” is the right word, I’m sure Bronty was paid and it was a real sale, but I do agree disclosure was certainly lacking. 

I was talking more about the initial HA auctions and participants. You used plural, so I figured that was what you meant, sorry about that.

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39 minutes ago, JeremiahJT said:

There is a difference here. Pat went on Pawn Stars to show off his game. Deniz went on Pawn Stars as an "expert" to assign a value. As I recall from the video he assigned a value higher than what had ever been payed. Whatever the case, he had a vested interest in setting the value as high as he could. Not setting an accurate one.

 

If you cannot see the difference there then you really do not understand this topic.

Okay, then consider me an expert 3rd party opinion on terms of value, and ignore his comments entirely.  Though actually I was listed as on the Wata advisory board at one point, so hopefully my response isn't considered colluding. 

That $100k Mario game in Jan 2019 was easily $150k by that summer.  I think rumors offered a Mantle card in trade for it at one point, but don't recall specifics.

By the time of the taping I believe Deniz said $300k+?  I would have said $250k+ myself at the time as someone with no affiliation.  And in rare item pricing you can never estimate the top end.  I would have said $250k-$300k on Mario 64 and boom, we had $1.6M.

So yeah, maybe it's a bad look to do so brazenly but who's a better expert than him?  People talk and a person in his position hears a lot I'm sure. Again people can cry foul but he has been extremely honest in all of his public assessments of value.  It'd be so easy to embellish but it's much more hard to stay modest and truly pinning down where you think an item is at a given moment.

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5 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

I never said payment came through WATA, I was paid through HA as it standard. I know the buyer of the Zelda and that he/she was aggressive on other items as well. I do not know the Mario 64 buyer, so I am hoping that person eventually comes forward. I am pretty confident I know the underbidder, but cannot swear to it.

Sorry, I meant HA--payment through the auction house, not the grading company.  As for knowing the bidders, no offense intended, but with all the accusations of shady dealings going on based on hard facts publicly available, without direct disclosure from HA about who the buyers/highest bidders are, how do we know for sure?

2 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

I don’t think “fabrication” is the right word, I’m sure Bronty was paid and it was a real sale, but I do agree disclose was lacking.

I believe the ending price was absolutely fabricated.  The seller got paid, the item changed hands, but the price was manipulated up to the point where WATA/HA wanted it to be, and thus fabricated--not legitimate of what the actual market was willing to bear at that time.  Deniz had been saying it for a while, so they made it happen, solidifying WATA as being experts in the field (both in regard to grading, but predicting/assigning value as well), helping spark off the huge ballooning we've seen in the past year or two.

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Wouldn't the Collector's Universe group have done their due diligence before acquiring WATA, PSA, and/or Goldin? These folks are far smarter and more well-versed in the business world than you or me.

In a world where "alternative asset" prices have skyrocketed across the board, is it really that surprising that a culturally relevant category like video games followed suit?

Why would Heritage risk their reputation doing shady shit when video games make up a TINY percentage of their overall sales?

Why didn't the Youtuber ask either Heritage or WATA for comment? That's investigative journalism 101.

If the trio bid $100,000 for the game, doesn't that mean there was another bidder willing to pay one bidding increment below that? Same question for the 1.5 million M64 sale.

Do gamers understand the difference between marketing and market manipulation? What are these people supposed to say? "Hi I'm Deniz and I think graded games are a terrible investment. That Mario belongs in the trash"

 

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28 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

If you're talking about folks specifically in the buy/sell/trade/discuss/analyze/etc. sealed games arena, then...maybe, or at least you'd be a lot closer to correct in your assumption.

considering the context of the assumption as i assume your talking about then yes everyone has help in this.  yes the 6 degree of separation is real.

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15 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Sorry, I meant HA--payment through the auction house, not the grading company.  As for knowing the bidders, no offense intended, but with all the accusations of shady dealings going on based on hard facts publicly available, without direct disclosure from HA about who the buyers/highest bidders are, how do we know for sure?

I believe the ending price was absolutely fabricated.  The seller got paid, the item changed hands, but the price was manipulated up to the point where WATA/HA wanted it to be, and thus fabricated--not legitimate of what the actual market was willing to bear at that time.  Deniz had been saying it for a while, so they made it happen, solidifying WATA as being experts in the field (both in regard to grading, but predicting/assigning value as well), helping spark off the huge ballooning we've seen in the past year or two.

Well, the public can never be sure without disclosure from the bidders. No auction company would publicly name bidders, though, so it’s not really a problem that can be solved unfortunately. And no offense taken!

As to “fabrication,” I would use that term if it was a legit fake sale. I think you are more opining it is manipulation. But semantics at this point, I suppose. There were definitely legit underbidders on that sticker Mario who had no affiliation to WATA or HA, though. It would have been less messy had they won it tbh.

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1 hour ago, broncofantd793 said:

He "wanted the hobby to grow" much like for profit colleges wanted to "educate."  There's no shame in being after money, just don't be unethical or holier than thou about it.

THE MARKET USING WATA AND HERITAGE TO CREATE VALUE IS THE EXACT PROBLEM WE'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT.  Those of us that are "not in the know" don't care about the value, we care about the ethics.

Here's an example.

John starts a company around toothpicks.  The company focuses on making sure the toothpicks are real wood and not some other dental material.  John's goal is to one day sell his company, much like any business.  John goes to Todd to help sell his "authenticated" toothpicks.  Todd starts his relationship with a brand new company by paying a huge amount of money for one of John's toothpicks.  John makes media appearances touting the legitimacy of his toothpicks, thanks to Todd's sale price.  People with no knowledge of toothpicks but that are very bored with their other hobbies, start buying toothpicks.  If Todd got such a good deal on his toothpick, then these people need toothpicks too! ......... Need I go on here?

This whole thing is one big money grab wrapped up in a huge serving of FOMO.

Except toothpicks are infinite goods, and games are actually finite.  Oh and toothpicks are more or less exactly identical in condition, where the finite supply bevomes ever smaller Mint.

Todd and John cant create the hobby unless 1000s of people play under them as well.  If Todd and John create 1000 followers overnight with no knowledge of the hobby, then it's very risky.  

In our hobby if you stick to the 1000 number, I'd say it's roughly half and half of well-informed collector vs. complete novice.  Even people who have only been around 2 years at this point have a decent read of the market.  And even if you are a complete novice, it's you choosing to spend your money correct? 

Sure argue for more transparency, I'm not going to argue that.  But huge difference between asking for more transparency and calling them scammers or fraud and what not.  

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8 minutes ago, vb337 said:

 

Why didn't the Youtuber ask either Heritage or WATA for comment? That's investigative journalism 101.

Amen!  

And he makes you watch 51 minutes of that until he reveals his ulterior motive in hating graded games.  Clearly written with an agenda, yet is being touted as some damning factual evidence.  

 

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8 minutes ago, vb337 said:

Why would Heritage risk their reputation doing shady shit when video games make up a TINY percentage of their overall sales?

 

You mean the same shady shit they've been accused of before?

https://twitter.com/CatDeSpira/status/1414440756924751873

The Tweet doesn't want to embed for some reason.

Blog post about it from 2009: https://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

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27 minutes ago, jonebone said:

Okay, then consider me an expert 3rd party opinion on terms of value, and ignore his comments entirely.  Though actually I was listed as on the Wata advisory board at one point, so hopefully my response isn't considered colluding. 

That $100k Mario game in Jan 2019 was easily $150k by that summer.  I think rumors offered a Mantle card in trade for it at one point, but don't recall specifics.

By the time of the taping I believe Deniz said $300k+?  I would have said $250k+ myself at the time as someone with no affiliation.  And in rare item pricing you can never estimate the top end.  I would have said $250k-$300k on Mario 64 and boom, we had $1.6M.

So yeah, maybe it's a bad look to do so brazenly but who's a better expert than him?  People talk and a person in his position hears a lot I'm sure. Again people can cry foul but he has been extremely honest in all of his public assessments of value.  It'd be so easy to embellish but it's much more hard to stay modest and truly pinning down where you think an item is at a given moment.

The biggest problem is that his company makes more money the more value a game has. They charge extra to grade and slab more valuable games. I personally do not understand how the value of the game being graded factors into how much it costs to grade that game.

 

Anytime he values a game above the current market value his company makes more money. That is a huge conflict of interest.

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11 minutes ago, Laseki said:

Someone vehemently defending wata while their ebay page is full of wata graded games

hmm

VGA Mario Galaxy 95s were selling at $5,000 over this summer too...  

End of day people are entitled to think what they'd like.  I'm a collector and would love for some more back to Earth pricing.  Sit back and see what happens.

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3 minutes ago, JeremiahJT said:

The biggest problem is that his company makes more money the more value a game has. They charge extra to grade and slab more valuable games. I personally do not understand how the value of the game being graded factors into how much it costs to grade that game.

 

Anytime he values a game above the current market value his company makes more money. That is a huge conflict of interest.

Isn't that for the extra cost of insurance liability? Not that they are actually charging more for the grading service? It stands to reason they have to protect themselves from their building burning down or whatever, especially with how long they are holding the games. 

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Full disclosure: I don't have skin in the graded sealed market or care who wins or loses there but might as well give some opinions, since I dislike how the market has grown in such a "fake" way. Collecting to me has always been all about passion for the medium and none about the money and I'll still state that collect/invest in whatever way you please folks - but I'll still show my disdain for perceived shady tactics, even if my perception too can be wrong.

1 minute ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

Wait didn't Deniz go on pawnstars and assign value to games? AKA make up a value?...

Plays a bit like this:

"We are the grading company that graded this game and our insider circle of "experts" and/or "buyers" value this item (that they also sometimes carry) at this arbitrarily high number compared to past data. Wow! Also our private population reports confirm to us that this is pretty rare game in this condition. Double wow!" It's not even that the valuations can't be correct but it's about a lot of trust and the market got there in a sprint due to all of the "shenanigans" Deniz accelerated too.

20 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Reserved Investments is assuredly not a “lifelong video game collector who is an expert in the field.” Then their YT channels got pimped. 

I think it's fine to cast doubt on collaborators in the video too but I watched some recent Reserved Investments video and I think he claimed to have ran a gaming store in the past and most of the sealed stuff he still owns is old stock from those times. He has openly stated in many videos that he is a player behind the scenes in the video game speculation side of things too, while thinking the current market is bonkers. He has said that the market is prime target to sell into right now and you should take the wins instead of gambling long term etc. He definitely doesn't look the part of video game enthusiast but he does seem to have long lived gaming experience if he talks the truth. Not saying these as direct quotes and I might even misremember things but it's bad optics to me when people place apparent misattributions on the rare guy who tries to educate the public about collectibles / investing / not jumping on crazy trains if you don't have money to lose, while also being someone who bears to gain from not sharing such information (maybe there are ulterior motives or shady things behind Reserved Investments too, heck if I know or care, just seems like I get information for free and people antagonize him for pissing in their cereal or whatever). Still of course Karl's video would have been better with more angles to it and he wasn't completely objective and impartial actor in this particular video with or without them.

41 minutes ago, jonebone said:

As far as "pumping" in general?  What do you want people to say?  Of course sealed collectors believe the hobby will go up. I knew we'd have a million dollar game in my lifetime, though I expected to be in my 50s (I'm 37).  If you want to blame the massive acceleration fine... but the values were going to get there one day anyway.  I personally think that fractional ownership is a MUCH bigger force behind acceleration than collusion, but to each their own.  At least the owner did note that, as that is a big contributor to where we are.

Fractional investing is something I would call pure speculating / investing and not collecting, so I would say it's a prime vehicle for pumping. At least I wouldn't think I owned something that I owned a fraction off, even if technically it could be part of my collection on paper.

Market manipulation does not necessarily mean illegal actions but growing a market through clueless big pockets and big in-the-know market players can create a fake perception and drive up value of the items in question, so my problem is with the FOMOing people on the demand side that perpetuate the craziness that they've been made to think of as normal or are gambling on as an investment. Still it's almost inevitable that a market growing line of attack happens in a collectible category at some point - how effective and long lasting that is, is a different story. Not saying video games shouldn't be valuable or couldn't rise to high levels over time. Also video games or any collectibles are not a god given right to anyone for any amount of money, so if things are too expensive don't take part in the market.

If video game market is in the kind of bubble comparable to 80s coins then that would mean that some of the big short term investors and long time investors win a lot but the overall market might drop hard and level out after the bubble pops (a horse beaten to death speculative statement for sure) instead of rising organically and steadily, so it's like forcing the max price out of your investments posthaste without caring about the consequences on the overall market. In the organic growth scenario old and new long term investors could be bigger winners but of course even being alive after the next x or yy years is not a guarantee. Of course how it will go can't be known for certain. If none of this happened who knows if things would've ended any better anyway.

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15 minutes ago, Foxhack said:

You mean the same shady shit they've been accused of before?

https://twitter.com/CatDeSpira/status/1414440756924751873

The Tweet doesn't want to embed for some reason.

Blog post about it from 2009: https://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

I have seen this cited before, but never seen anything about where the lawsuit went. I believe the man who filed it also owed Heritage like half a million from a failed Joint Venture. My guess is nothing came of it or there would be more articles.

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11 minutes ago, Laseki said:

Someone vehemently defending wata while their ebay page is full of wata graded games

hmm

This is so lazy, I’m sorry. Jone has been a well respected member of the community for many years. If you want to take potshots like this and not address the arguments on their merits, it doesn’t help your position. 

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