Pro Wrestling thread

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

17 hours ago, themisfit138 said:

Gorilla and Jesse make a great announcing team. Vince did have a good voice back then. I always liked his rundown of the Survivor Series Card. The early version of the Mr. McMahon voice from the Attitude era. I think Gorilla interacted better with Jesse. A lot like JR and King. Bobby Heenan and Vince worked pretty well also. 

I think my favorite is still Gorilla and Heenan.   After Gorilla died Heenan barely got through a tribute to him on WCW that night.

[Estil | 1,265]

I can't believe how so many of both the wrestlers and the hosts/commentators and even Miss Elizabeth (she sure was very classy and glamorous looking in TWC wasn't she?) from WM1 and The Wrestling Classic (would it be at least semi-accurate to call that Wrestlemania 1.5 seeing as how it was the only ppv event in between WM1 and WM2?) are already no longer with us   At least we still have Jesse and Hulk I suppose...

EDIT: I can't believe I overlooked Mario from the Super Mario Bros Super Show!  He even appeared in Cyndi's "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" video at her request!

Edited April 27, 2020 by Estil

[guitarzombie | 924]

Prob should switch that as the NWA as the National League hah.  It was founded like 100 years ago.

[DarkTone | 986]

Mine is JR and Paul Heyman. Great work together. 

[Estil | 1,265]

On 4/25/2020 at 5:48 PM, guitarzombie said:

Prob should switch that as the NWA as the National League hah.  It was founded like 100 years ago.

I think the better analogy would be the NWA, because it was meant to be a bunch of small regional leagues it would be more like baseball's minor leagues, which actually goes back even further than the two major leagues.  Nowhere near a perfect analogy but I thought the WWF and WCW being the NL and AL of 'rassling made perfect sense to me at the time!

[SpoonMan Abrams X | 697]

On 4/22/2020 at 12:26 AM, Estil said:

What was wrong with 7 and 9?  And Macho Man was the Slim Jim guy right?  And yes like most kids in that period I was into Hulk Hogan, especially his Suburban Commando movie   And I asked about the WM1 time because I wanted to make sure it wasn't like cut/edited or something

Seven was the first signs of it getting over bloated, and was poorly booked imo. It wasn't the worst 'mania by any means but... well when you literally have the two biggest stars of the time in Hogan and Flair in the same promotion for the first time ever and somehow don't book that as your main event for your biggest show of the year... then wtf are you doing? Not to say Savage vs Flair was bad... but it also wasn't the main event (it was smack dab in the middle of the card. Also it was for the world title lol). The actual main event of Hogan vs Sid... less said the better. At the least it was the WM debut of the Undertaker, so that was good.

As guitar zombie pointed out, Nine was marred by... well yea you'll just have to see it.

On 4/22/2020 at 1:21 AM, guitarzombie said:

Wrestlemania 1 was def not one hour.  Id guess 2 and a half?  They were usually that long.  then I think towards 4 till about 7 they were close to 3 hours?

It wasn't anything over two hours iirc. The total length of the matches themselves barely equate to a full hour.

On 4/22/2020 at 3:12 PM, themisfit138 said:

If you want shorter shows. From the 80s and 90s. Summer Slam and Survivor Series have been pretty solid. Mania is mostly hype. I think the other three PPVs from the same era have been more enjoyable to watch. 

Rumbles are always a good watch. Imho Survivor Series weren't great until later. They were like the early prototype of having gimmick matches on certain shows for the sake of gimmick matches (which the current product is almost nothing but).

On 4/22/2020 at 3:23 PM, Estil said:

 I don't suppose Trump was there was he?  

Back to WM1, Cyndi Lauper was a fun guest star    As for Billy Martin, how would you like be manager for a team five separate times?

You'll see plenty of Trump in a couple 'Manias dont worry lol

And yea, managers in the golden era worked overtime, for sure... it's too bad theyre so underutilized nowadays

On 4/22/2020 at 6:17 PM, guitarzombie said:

People have to keep in mind that the older PPVs were not as they were today, they built from it.  Usually they had one or two real 'main event' matches, some special attraction or blowoff matches and then some filler for the card.  Prob by Wrestlemania 18 or 19 is when they really tried to make every match special or have some sort of feud.  I could be wrong because my knowledge drops off GREATLY after 2000.

I disagree. They had plenty of build in the old days, but the more prudent thing to keep in mind is in the early days there were... only a handful of PPVs a year? So there was a ton of time and wait in between. Wasn't until until 95 when they started to do the In Your House shows that PPVs became and then stayed as over-saturated as they are now. Up until then you were lucky to get more then 4 or 5 in an entire year.

On 4/24/2020 at 11:58 AM, guitarzombie said:

Jesse was by far a great heel commentator.  A good yin to the yang for someone like Gorilla or Vince.  But he was a much better talker and look than he was in the ring.  

Jesse was a fantastic commentator.

On 4/24/2020 at 12:07 PM, guitarzombie said:

You wouldn't be wrong.  I think a lot of current wrestlers don't really understand that its better to 'get over' more with charisma, personality and talking than what happens in the ring.  What happens in the ring is really the least important part.

I disagree with this. Especially when you get John Cenas, guys with all the talking and charisma in the world but not necessarily a lot of skill in the ring. Granted a lot of that has to do with the Internet nowadays but Work rate also got guys over like Rover (just look at Bret Hart)

On 4/24/2020 at 10:18 PM, themisfit138 said:

Gorilla and Jesse make a great announcing team. Vince did have a good voice back then. I always liked his rundown of the Survivor Series Card. The early version of the Mr. McMahon voice from the Attitude era. I think Gorilla interacted better with Jesse. A lot like JR and King. Bobby Heenan and Vince worked pretty well also. 

Macho Man on commentary was also pretty good.

On 4/25/2020 at 5:15 PM, Estil said:

I can't believe how so many of both the wrestlers and the hosts/commentators and even Miss Elizabeth (she sure was very classy and glamorous looking in TWC wasn't she?) from WM1 and The Wrestling Classic (would it be at least semi-accurate to call that Wrestlemania 1.5 seeing as how it was the only ppv event in between WM1 and WM2?) are already no longer with us   At least we still have Jesse and Hulk I suppose...

EDIT: I can't believe I overlooked Mario from the Super Mario Bros Super Show!  He even appeared in Cyndi's "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" video at her request!

WM1 was some 35 years ago now... also doesn't help a lot of them from that Era lived like Rockstars... may they RIP

19 hours ago, DarkTone said:

Mine is JR and Paul Heyman. Great work together. 

Low Key (for a more modern commentating duo) Tazz & Micheal Cole is quite underrated imho.

[Shawn | 31]

On 4/22/2020 at 3:12 PM, themisfit138 said:

 

Side note, I was in attendance at Wrestlemania 8. So I can’t give an unbiased opinion on that. I also went to a Saturday Night Main Event in 92. 

 

 

I went to Wrestlemania 5 and it was awesome!

[guitarzombie | 924]

2 hours ago, SpoonMan Abrams X said:

It wasn't anything over two hours iirc. The total length of the matches themselves barely equate to a full hour.

I disagree with this. Especially when you get John Cenas, guys with all the talking and charisma in the world but not necessarily a lot of skill in the ring. Granted a lot of that has to do with the Internet nowadays but Work rate also got guys over like Rover (just look at Bret Hart)

You might be right about WM1.  I checked the network and saw that it was almost 2 hours 30 mins.  At least their version, the uncut was prob longer.  Or maybe 2:30 on the dot. 

 

As far as in ring vs. work rate you couldn't be any more wrong.  What happens in the ring is the least important part.  You have to CARE about the wrestlers in order to get invested.  At least thats how it used to be.  You'll be over for way longer and be a bigger star with mic work.  Like Cena.  BTW I really hate this work rate means being some technical, 'spot monkey' flip wizard guy.  Bret Hart is one of the VERY few who got over with his skills to a huge degree with almost zero ability to talk, esp before 96.  Cena is a great worker because its mostly safe and super strong.  He can carry a match.  Its different from being a 'technical', chain wrestler.  Those are always great, but they will never get over to the degree of an Ultimate Warrior.  A guy that was 100% look and charisma, and a 0 in the ring.  If you look at all the real great, legendary wrestlers after lets say 1975, they fall under 2 main categories.  Bad ass tough guys like a Harley Race, or super charismatic wrestlers.  None of them we're incredible 'work rate' guys.  Guys like Macho, Steamboat, Flair could all go in the ring, but which one stands out?  Steamboat, cuz he didn't have the appeal.  But he could bring the best out of the other guys, and when there was a feud going, what they did inside the right was magic (Flair Steamboat, Steamboat Macho).  The best of both worlds.  To get over on a mainstream level, you gotta appeal to the casuals and most casuals couldn't care less about degree of difficulty.  Sorry, had a little rant haha.  I don't really like what the IWC has done to wrestling, but thats because theyre the most vocal and have been shifting the tone of wrestling was for the past decade.

[SpoonMan Abrams X | 697]

13 minutes ago, guitarzombie said:

What happens in the ring is the least important part.

On the contrary, especially the top guys today are the total package, (charisma, mic skills, and in ring skill) but that also plenty of guys got over, even back in the golden days, that were far better workers then either their mic/promo skills or even sheer charisma. It is more prevalent today then it used to be, for better or worse. With all due respect, while I get where your coming from, it is rather close minded to say "in ring work is the least important" when it clearly isn't the case. At all.

That also isn't to say that a wrestler can't improve in one or the other with enough time and practice. Look at Cena. He really was arugably hot garbage when he started

It really comes off more of you're trying to push a matter of preference as some sort of fact or gospel. Yes sometimes guys get over that aren't great in the ring but are fire on the mic, but other times the complete opposite is true. A great modern example is Damien Sandow/Aron Stevens. He is exceptionally charismatic and miraculously got over some of the most asinine garbage gimmicks to become hot as anyone, but he never was the greatest worker in the ring... and frankly if anything that held him back most of all. Not much worth to being a blazing star of epic charisma but then not be able to go in the ring at all... then you're just a guy who can talk real good.

Again the true balance as I see is some combination of all three... though obviously there are plenty of exceptions, but by no means would I consider it the "standard".

[guitarzombie | 924]

Just now, SpoonMan Abrams X said:

On the contrary, especially the top guys today are the total package, (charisma, mic skills, and in ring skill) but that also plenty of guys got over, even back in the golden days, that were far better workers then either their mic/promo skills or even sheer charisma. It is more prevalent today then it used to be, for better or worse. With all due respect, while I get where your coming from, it is rather close minded to say "in ring work is the least important" when it clearly isn't the case. At all.

That also isn't to say that a wrestler can't improve in one or the other with enough time and practice. Look at Cena. He really was arugably hot garbage when he started

It really comes off more of you're trying to push a matter of preference as some sort of fact or gospel. Yes sometimes guys get over that aren't great in the ring but are fire on the mic, but other times the complete opposite is true. A great modern example is Damien Sandow/Aron Stevens. He is exceptionally charismatic and miraculously got over some of the most asinine garbage gimmicks to become hot as anyone, but he never was the greatest worker in the ring... and frankly if anything that held him back most of all. Not much worth to being a blazing star of epic charisma but then not be able to go in the ring at all... then you're just a guy who can talk real good.

Again the true balance as I see is some combination of all three... though obviously there are plenty of exceptions, but by no means would I consider it the "standard".

I would say Macho was the best combination of all 3 (Flair second).  But who was a bigger star, him or Hogan?  Who could go in the ring better?  Altho THB Hogan COULD work much better like in Japan but why?  People weren't paying to see him to chain wrestle, they were paying to see him rip his shirt and cup his ear.  They wanted Austin to flip off people and drink beer, and the Rock to raise his eyebrow.  It isn't close minded cuz thats the way its always been until only the past 10/15 years and only applied to hardcore fans.  Todays wrestlers are better than ever technically (some of their basics suck, like punches), but I REALLY doubt any of them will be a bigger star than those in the past.  MAYBE Daniel Bryan will be looked at more fondly than others but no way is he gonna be in the league as Taker/Cena/Macho etc.  I wouldnt even say todays wrestlers are the total package because they're force-fed what to say.  One thing I REALLY wish they got rid of.  Its refreshing to see the NWA or AEW get rid of that and see how good some of them can be on their own.  With Aron Stevens, I agree he was great with the mic.  I like him on NWA and his 'work' is totally fine.  The problem is the guy with the pencil.  Vince didn't see him as a top guy and didn't push him.  This is CERTAINLY an issue with the current WWF stuff ive seen, like Rusev too.  Wrestlers getting over on their own, only to be pushed aside cuz they don't fit his vision.  Thats not the wrestlers fault.  Sometimes it takes forever but they get thru, like Daniel Bryan where they couldn't deny him anymore.  Or Austin when he first came in.  Austin was a better worker before he got hurt, but trust me, no one gave a shit about him has the Ringmaster.  He got lucky HHH fucked up in 96, and took the ball and ran with it when given the opportunity.  You have to be at least somewhat competent in the ring but there are WAY more guys that got over with charisma and flair, than in ring ability.  I think of guys like Rock, Austin, Dusty, Warrior,  Lawler (for his territory), Hogan vs. Eaton, Steamboat, Dynamite Kid etc.  

Ultimately its all up to the guy who wants talent to be on top.  Which is why Guerrero, Benoit, Mysterio, smaller, better worker guys got a push and got a chance with the belt.  Altho Eddie was really entertaining.  But as I said, thats more of a 'recent' thing.  If you get over on your mic work/charisma, you'll not only be over longer, but have a much longer career too.  Instead of pushing the envelope with moves, ultimately shortening your career.  Hogan has had like 10 back surgeries from 20 years of just LEG DROPS!  Haha

[SpoonMan Abrams X | 697]

I also just want to clarify when I think of "work" I don't necessarily think of it as solely high flying/flippy shit or expert technical prowess... but someone who is sound in fundamentals and can make themselves and others look good. It may arguably be just as much charisma for the wrestler themselves as well as chemistry with their opponent, but there is a lot to be said about guys who make it look natural and, possibly more importantly, safe. You brought up Steve Austin as a good example. Other people I would say fit that bill as well is Randy Orton, even John Cena to an extent (especially in his later in his career, especially against the likes of CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens and AJ Styles).

It isn't just having a good face, but also good presentation & know how as well.

[Estil | 1,265]

Well you guys think I'm ready to go on to 'Mania 2?

[themisfit138 | 523]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:03 AM, guitarzombie said:

You might be right about WM1.  I checked the network and saw that it was almost 2 hours 30 mins.  At least their version, the uncut was prob longer.  Or maybe 2:30 on the dot. 

The Anthology edition of Mania 1 is 2 hours 17 minutes.  

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:51 AM, guitarzombie said:

Ultimately its all up to the guy who wants talent to be on top.  Which is why Guerrero, Benoit, Mysterio, smaller, better worker guys got a push and got a chance with the belt.  Altho Eddie was really entertaining. 

I just learned in the last few weeks that the Gobbledy Gooker was Eddie's brother!

[guitarzombie | 924]

43 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

I just learned in the last few weeks that the Gobbledy Gooker was Eddie's brother!

Yup!  Talented guy.  Silly idea but sometimes you just need to do something just to get your foot in the door.

[DarkTone | 986]

Roman got fucked over. 

[Ice Man | 14]

How so? I thought he quit because of Covid-19 being a risk to himself?

[mbd39 | 2,025]

On 4/29/2020 at 6:25 PM, guitarzombie said:

Yup!  Talented guy.  Silly idea but sometimes you just need to do something just to get your foot in the door.

Unfortunately the acrobatic cruiserweight style wasn't popular in North America in 1990. It would take a few years.

[Foochie776 | 1,055]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:27 AM, Estil said:

Well you guys think I'm ready to go on to 'Mania 2?

You watching in order?

[Estil | 1,265]

4 hours ago, Foochie776 said:

You watching in order?

That's how Julie Andrews would do it

[Foochie776 | 1,055]

9 minutes ago, Estil said:

That's how Julie Andrews would do it

It’s kind of cool to watch the evolution of the showmanship, I’ve watched most I think. I started watching WWF around 99-00 but Wrestlemania X is one of my favorites. Big Micheals fan and I love Razor Ramon. X-7 is the top though, you’re quite a ways away but man that was perfection. 

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

5 hours ago, mbd39 said:

Unfortunately the acrobatic cruiserweight style wasn't popular in North America in 1990. It would take a few years.

Yeah, back then the Intercontinental belt was for the guys without the bodies (Honky Tonk) or the guys with the bodies but no real main event draw (Warrior/Macho/Texas Tornado/Perfect/early Bret).

Glad to see it shake up in the early 2000s with more high flyers and cruiserweights.

[DarkTone | 986]

11 hours ago, Ice Man said:

How so? I thought he quit because of Covid-19 being a risk to himself?

He did. But WWE won't show old footage of him.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 hours ago, captmorgandrinker said:

Yeah, back then the Intercontinental belt was for the guys without the bodies (Honky Tonk) or the guys with the bodies but no real main event draw (Warrior/Macho/Texas Tornado/Perfect/early Bret).

Glad to see it shake up in the early 2000s with more high flyers and cruiserweights.

Macho Man and Ultimate Warrior weren't main event draws? Warrior was on par with Hogan in popularity at his peak (even if it was short) and Macho Man is one of the best wrestlers of all time. 

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

1 hour ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

Macho Man and Ultimate Warrior weren't main event draws? Warrior was on par with Hogan in popularity at his peak (even if it was short) and Macho Man is one of the best wrestlers of all time. 

There's a reason Warrior's title reign was so short.

But I'll give you Macho Man though.  I stand by everything else I said.   Fact remains there wasn't really a place for a really good cruiserweight unless you're sticking him on a tag team back then.