The Spreading (And Potentially Deadly) Coronavirus Epidemic....

[Estil | 1,265]

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

You forgot to note that both she, as well as your other sister, is a healthcare worker who refuses to get vaccinated, regardless of requests, incentives, or demands on the part of their employer.  I have a feeling they're going to end up like that mass of healthcare workers in New York who quit the obstetrics department of a local hospital because they dared enforce the state mandate that all NY healthcare workers be vaccinated.

Why would health care workers of all people not want the vaccine?  You'd think they more than anybody would know how DEAD wrong not getting that vaccine could be.

[FireHazard51 | 2,044]

2 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Dude, I'm not surprised.  While it initially started off as a joke amongst my family, the longer we've lived in the area, the more we've come to realize how true it is.  What am I referring to?  Our local National Guard outfit is, quite literally, F-Troop.  Seriously.  Life imitating art and all that, FTW.

LOL, the unit I was with was a hodge podge of different MOS (military occupation specialist) and most were non-combat ones so I figured that was why they were so fucked up.  Those who had their shit together were combat MOS or prior deployed.  Not joking that many were Water Purification Specialist..... remember this movie?

In the movie he was a water purification specialist.  When I heard the Tenn unit had a lot of them I fucking couldn't believe that was still a thing.  So go figured that some of them were absolute shit when doing a combat oriented mission.  I mean I could tell you stories but I think you may not realize how BAD it was doing a mission brief in the vehicles while going out the fucking gate of the base....  Or how one gunner didn't know why the WRONG SIZED AMMO didn't fit into his machine gun when we were hours away from being out the gate.  Like there just isn't time to un-fuck how fucked he was.  The guy who was from my Ohio platoon who extended with me that told me this.  All I could do was tell him, "Hope that you don't get attacked because dude is completely incompetent.  You may need to pull him out of the turret and take over."  He was a driver all during the deployment.  But he was a Calvary Scout so I knew he could do the job.  The thought of getting in a fire fight and have to become a gunner was not a fun idea from the look on his face though.  Can't blame him, the whole deployment he was focused on doing a whole different skill/job.  I was nervous when I was forced to stop being a gunner and do driving for a mission.  We like what we are use to doing I guess.

I'm guessing that Fox Troop isn't a cavalry combat unit but more of a cavalry regiment that is non-combat oriented.  Actually found a news release about the changing of the command.  My Troop was part of an Ohio ANG Squadron that was part of a Penn ANG (28ths Infantry Division, the famous bloody bucket patch) who was deployed with the Mississippi ANG (155th Armored BCT, their patch is the thunder bolt).  So we were a bastard unit of another bastard unit.  And a handful of us extend our deployment with the replacement Tenn ANG (278 Armored Cav, the "cookie" patch) so we were then the bastard unit of a bastard unit of a bastard unit.  This did become an issue as when it was time to end our deployment nobody fucking would do the paper work as no one would "claim" us.  I heard it took an Ohio General to get us our orders issued to finally leave.  Our one LT who extend with us told us we'll just hitch our way home after the last day of contract to be in Iraq.  He was livid about the whole situation. 

Anyways the 155 was a funny unit.  When saluting it was typical to say "Southern pride" when saluting and their response was "Dixie Thunder".  Well none of us like that so we never did it.  Well the 155 officers love saying "Dixie Thunder" so it came down that we couldn't say "Good evening Sir" but had to say "Southern pride" so that they could do their little "Dixie Thunder" back.  We were all pissed about it and our officers too.  So they started the traditions of saying "Yankee Lighting" and of 155 would respond back with "Dixie Thunder".  Didn't take long before they stop trying to force their southern traditions on us.  Also helped that we were a damn good Troop.  We impressed the highest brass of the 155 so much that they changed our mission from base security to convoy security and made one of there own units do the shit work of base security.  That change was very last minute too.  We were worried our gear taking the long shipping route via the ocean would arrive at the wrong base since that also changed too.  Those shipping containers that had our machine guns, night vision goggles, & etc. had to be shipped a month in advance of us leaving the country.

Anyways, the Union blood in me boils a little at the sight of anything Confederated.  Looking at you Mississippi flag.  And the whole "Southern pride" thing can go fuck off too.

[FireHazard51 | 2,044]

35 minutes ago, Estil said:

Why would health care workers of all people not want the vaccine?  You'd think they more than anybody would know how DEAD wrong not getting that vaccine could be.

Exactly.  Or am I way under estimating the medical intelligence/background knowledge needed to do some medical jobs.  Like I'm dumb founded to hear nurses say they don't want the vaccine.  I'd like a dental hygienist who doesn't wear gloves when cleaning people's teeth.  

[Estil | 1,265]

1 minute ago, FireHazard51 said:

Exactly.  Or am I way under estimating the medical intelligence/background knowledge needed to do some medical jobs. 

Honestly, considering what it takes to become a doctor, I don't see how anyone can manage to make it...

 

[Tulpa | 3,513]

41 minutes ago, Estil said:

Why would health care workers of all people not want the vaccine?  You'd think they more than anybody would know how DEAD wrong not getting that vaccine could be.

 

2 minutes ago, FireHazard51 said:

Exactly.  Or am I way under estimating the medical intelligence/background knowledge needed to do some medical jobs.  Like I'm dumb founded to hear nurses say they don't want the vaccine.  I'd like a dental hygienist who doesn't wear gloves when cleaning people's teeth.  

All the knowledge and training in the world can't often overcome ingrained bias.

They get pounded with propaganda from wags like Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity and they just lose all objectiveness.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

49 minutes ago, Estil said:

Why would health care workers of all people not want the vaccine?  You'd think they more than anybody would know how DEAD wrong not getting that vaccine could be.

I'd guess some of it had to do with all the rumors going around at the beginning of it being available that it somehow made younger women infertile in addition to all of the other nonsense that has been made up and spouted off about the vaccines.  I can understand some hesitance based on the idea that these simply haven't had the length and depth of testing that other vaccines have gone through prior to being pushed out in a mass release.  However, if there hasn't been time to determine what the effects might be, how can one go about claiming what the effects are or will be...since there hasn't been time or testing enough to determine it?  People with heads up their asses is what it really boils down to, in the end.

25 minutes ago, FireHazard51 said:

I'm guessing that Fox Troop isn't a cavalry combat unit but more of a cavalry regiment that is non-combat oriented.  Actually found a news release about the changing of the command.  My Troop was part of an Ohio ANG Squadron that was part of a Penn ANG (28ths Infantry Division, the famous bloody bucket patch) who was deployed with the Mississippi ANG (155th Armored BCT, their patch is the thunder bolt).  So we were a bastard unit of another bastard unit.  And a handful of us extend our deployment with the replacement Tenn ANG (278 Armored Cav, the "cookie" patch) so we were then the bastard unit of a bastard unit of a bastard unit.  This did become an issue as when it was time to end our deployment nobody fucking would do the paper work as no one would "claim" us.  I heard it took an Ohio General to get us our orders issued to finally leave.  Our one LT who extend with us told us we'll just hitch our way home after the last day of contract to be in Iraq.  He was livid about the whole situation. 

Anyways the 155 was a funny unit.  When saluting it was typical to say "Southern pride" when saluting and their response was "Dixie Thunder".  Well none of us like that so we never did it.  Well the 155 officers love saying "Dixie Thunder" so it came down that we couldn't say "Good evening Sir" but had to say "Southern pride" so that they could do their little "Dixie Thunder" back.  We were all pissed about it and our officers too.  So they started the traditions of saying "Yankee Lighting" and of 155 would respond back with "Dixie Thunder".  Didn't take long before they stop trying to force their southern traditions on us.  Also helped that we were a damn good Troop.  We impressed the highest brass of the 155 so much that they changed our mission from base security to convoy security and made one of there own units do the shit work of base security.  That change was very last minute too.  We were worried our gear taking the long shipping route via the ocean would arrive at the wrong base since that also changed too.  Those shipping containers that had our machine guns, night vision goggles, & etc. had to be shipped a month in advance of us leaving the country.

Anyways, the Union blood in me boils a little at the sight of anything Confederated.  Looking at you Mississippi flag.  And the whole "Southern pride" thing can go fuck off too.

I honestly don't recall what the specific assignment of the local F-Troop was, but up until and through the initial mobilization for Iraq and Afghanistan, I want to say they were armored cavalry, as they had quite a lot of armored units fenced up there at all times, as well as a lot of humvees, both with and without gunnery mounts on/through the roof.  According to the current info online about them, it seems that they've been moved over to being MP's, so perhaps they were proven incompetent at their original assignment and moved to something where they might cause less damage?  (I'm not saying MP's don't have a job to do that needs to be done well, just can imagine being told to go pick up so and so and hold them in the stockade would be far less complicated than any sort of driving/gunnery mission.)

If the fuckwits you showed the article about are the ones you served beside (3/278), while they aren't from our town, they're essentially from the next town(s) over, lol.  Mount Carmel is on the far side of the next city over from ours, Newport is on the far side of the next city over in a slightly different direction (both closest cities are 15-20 miles away to the NW and SW of us), and Greeneville is basically the next town over from either of those, lol.  So...yeah, sorry you had to deal with the gung-ho know nothings that inhabit our region.

As for your distaste and "revenge" for their Southern pride nonsense, I hope you got your fair share of pats on the back for that.  I've been dealing with that sort of shit for nearly 40 years of living here after moving from an hour or so outside of Pittsburgh, so I can definitely feel you, getting your face rubbed in it even if you don't bring up the topic, actively avoid it, etc.  And how pissed off folks get when you finally, politely (but deviously, after a while, I must admit) point out who won that particular war.  The looks I get when I point out that Sherman is a hero of mine specifically for his "I'm done with this fucking bullshit" tactics are nearly always priceless.  I'm happy to admit that there are plenty of things that I like and enjoy about the south versus where I came from, but the literal mountain of "Southern pride" bullshit and everything that comes with it is absolutely not one of them.

10 minutes ago, FireHazard51 said:

Exactly.  Or am I way under estimating the medical intelligence/background knowledge needed to do some medical jobs.  Like I'm dumb founded to hear nurses say they don't want the vaccine.  I'd like a dental hygienist who doesn't wear gloves when cleaning people's teeth.  

To be 100% honest, and without meaning to denigrate what medical professionals do, I think most people far, far, far overestimate what intelligence and background knowledge it takes to do a lot of medical jobs.  No, I'm not in the field, and no, I haven't tried to get into it myself.  However, I did watch both of my sister in laws study for their positions and knew exactly how much stuff that was in the text they were required to read was immediately, instantly disregarded the moment they got through an examination on it, exactly how little studying and learning they actually did versus cramming as much as possible at the absolute last possible moment in order to (seemingly barely) get over the bar of entry and pass their various exams and classes just well enough to pass and be licensed.  With the performance of any job comes knowledge, so the SIL that my wife babysits for, I have more respect for her ability to perform her duties independently of a doctor holding her hand and specifically telling her what to do (although a big part of her job is just knowing how to operate the hardware after a while).  The other SIL...she always has to express her medical opinion whenever anyone has anything medical going on and has always, without fail, been at least 100% (if not more) incorrect in her opinion and diagnosis of what's going on.  The number of WebMD-panic-diseases that everyone in the family has supposedly had over the period of her beginning to study to be a nurse to the present day is mind boggling.

If someone hasn't had to go through the length of training, and memorization, and absolute understanding of medicine that a doctor, for example, has had to go through in order to be licensed and continue to maintain that license throughout their practice (some levels of nursing end up at that point, so not just doctors, but it's the easiest term to throw out there for people to understand), there is a solid chance that a D- student can barely do the job just well enough to stay employed somewhere, in someone's healthcare system, despite having the intelligence and retained knowledge of a walnut.

[FireHazard51 | 2,044]

9 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

 

All the knowledge and training in the world can't often overcome ingrained bias.

They get pounded with propaganda from wags like Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity and they just lose all objectiveness.

Your right, I've seen this in the military.  Soldier who train the Afghani Army and yet think shit would be OK once we pulled out.  Or that we wouldn't be stuck in a forever war while waiting for the right time to pull out.  That ship was going to always sink no mater what we did.  I figured that shit out years ago and was pissed when Obama failed to pull out.  I'm not sure if I should blame the Generals for telling lies/fairy tales about how the government could survive with just some more time.  Or if Obama knew the honest truth and didn't want to be the one to get the blame when it fucks up.  I'm sure Trump is glad as fuck he wasn't in office when it happened.  No president could stop that country's government from crumbling.  Granted I think everyone was a bit shocked at how fast it did crumbled.  I'm happy the ball got rolling on the pull out and Biden didn't do a 180 and stop it.  I know he's taking a beating on the whole pull out but fuck'em.  Pulling out was always going to be massive fuck up.  Look what happen to Iraq and we LEFT troops in that country.  On paper that war ended but there has always been troops left behind to help the local government/military and we still had ISIS issues.  

Anyways, point taken.  Political talking points can cause you to not use your own personal experience and expertise to make judgement calls on shit that you should have more knowledge on than political pundits mouthing off on.  I mean I would hope they would fucking trust the organizations in their field over news commentaries.  I can't even call them reporters because they aren't.  They even admit it because if they didn't they could be held accountable for their statements.  Instead they are just people who happen to be on a news channel during the peak hours of viewing to give their opinions on news events instead of actually reporting the news.

[avatar! | 1,819]

Trying to be sympathetic, but...

[Brickman | 3,993]

10 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Trying to be sympathetic, but...

IMO if someone in the US is unvaccinated and dies of Covid I feel it’s just nature thinning the heard of idiots. Likewise if someone in my country is 40+ (We are a bit behind other western countries).

I have full sympathy for those who were vaccinated or have a legitimate excuse why they can’t be vaccinated but these people I couldn’t care less. Thanks nature

[Californication | 1,477]

2 hours ago, Estil said:

Why would health care workers of all people not want the vaccine?  You'd think they more than anybody would know how DEAD wrong not getting that vaccine could be.

Right! My cousin and her husband work in the hospital. Both refuse to get vaccinated, the husband does electrolysis for people. I'm really happy the government is pushing the new guidelines because people should not be able to make decisions like this that implicate other peoples health.

The thing is people like lawyers, doctors, nurses, accountants etc. are in the service industry. There is a range in quality among people and they each have their own personalities, they can vary ethically, belief wise, etc.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Californication

[Tulpa | 3,513]

40 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Trying to be sympathetic, but...

Qanon people were even trying to smuggle Ivermectin in for her to take.

https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-veronica-wolski-chicago-hospital-ivermectin-1628348

 

[spacepup | 2,405]

1 hour ago, Shmup said:

IMO if someone in the US is unvaccinated and dies of Covid I feel it’s just nature thinning the heard of idiots. Likewise if someone in my country is 40+ (We are a bit behind other western countries).

I have full sympathy for those who were vaccinated or have a legitimate excuse why they can’t be vaccinated but these people I couldn’t care less. Thanks nature

It is certainly easy to react in this way, especially given all the information we have.  BUT, I still think it's important to remember the toll that any death takes on...friends, family, community, others impacted.  I feel for the people who possibly urged others to be safe, and then have to deal with stuff like this.

Aside from that - it would be easier to maybe dismiss consequences from people's own choices, but unfortunately, when people continue to make these choices, it continues the spread of the illness to others, including vaccinated people who can still get it, people who can't get vaccinated, or people who are negatively impacted because they can't get the medical treatment they need because an anti-vaxxer COVID patient is taking up an ICU bed they need.  

There are just so many ways that it impacts the rest of the society, that it's not as simple as someone making their bed and laying in it.  It isn't just the case that "nonbelievers" or anti-vaxxers will suffer the consequences and then everyone else can move on.  It is a lot more widespread and damaging than that.

Unfortunately, the reality is that we can't really force people to change their minds or take more protective measures, so we have to deal with the consequences whether we want to or not.

The balance between personal freedom and public health, is very tricky, especially with a virus like COVID.  We are seeing a difficult social battle, that we've never really dealt with before (at least in my lifetime).  I can't solve the bigger picture, but I'm just doing my best to (a) stay safe and cautious myself, and (b) urge others to do the same where I can.

[Brickman | 3,993]

14 minutes ago, spacepup said:

It is certainly easy to react in this way, especially given all the information we have.  BUT, I still think it's important to remember the toll that any death takes on...friends, family, community, others impacted.  I feel for the people who possibly urged others to be safe, and then have to deal with stuff like this.

Aside from that - it would be easier to maybe dismiss consequences from people's own choices, but unfortunately, when people continue to make these choices, it continues the spread of the illness to others, including vaccinated people who can still get it, people who can't get vaccinated, or people who are negatively impacted because they can't get the medical treatment they need because an anti-vaxxer COVID patient is taking up an ICU bed they need.  

There are just so many ways that it impacts the rest of the society, that it's not as simple as someone making their bed and laying in it.  It isn't just the case that "nonbelievers" or anti-vaxxers will suffer the consequences and then everyone else can move on.  It is a lot more widespread and damaging than that.

Unfortunately, the reality is that we can't really force people to change their minds or take more protective measures, so we have to deal with the consequences whether we want to or not.

The balance between personal freedom and public health, is very tricky, especially with a virus like COVID.  We are seeing a difficult social battle, that we've never really dealt with before (at least in my lifetime).  I can't solve the bigger picture, but I'm just doing my best to (a) stay safe and cautious myself, and (b) urge others to do the same where I can.

I get where you're coming from, and maybe it's because I'm currently living through my sixth lockdown that has taken away my sympathy for anti-vaxxers, but I just can't have any sympathy for someone that has had ample opportunity, and in some cases, actually tries to convince others not to get vaccinated or try animal medicine. They're causing more harm to society with their crazy theories imo.

Personally I believe that if a country has given ample time to get vaccinated and has ample supply to cover the nation then they should be prioritising vaccinated people and non vaccinated with a medical exemption in the hospital system. Anti-vaxxers can get an ICU bed if there's one available after the people doing the right thing. Prioritise those who are actually trying to save society over those who are trying to destroy it. Resources should be focused on remote communities and helping the disadvantaged not those who berate people on talk shows and try to convince people of conspiracy theories.

This all probably  sounds very cold and bitter, but my city has tried to do the right thing in saving lives with lockdowns and to have anti-vaxxers try and spread misinformation makes me angry and gives me little sympathy for them. 

[Californication | 1,477]

1 hour ago, spacepup said:

The balance between personal freedom and public health, is very tricky, especially with a virus like COVID.  We are seeing a difficult social battle, that we've never really dealt with before (at least in my lifetime).  I can't solve the bigger picture, but I'm just doing my best to (a) stay safe and cautious myself, and (b) urge others to do the same where I can.

The balance your talking about isn't inhehrently difficult though. This was turned into a social issue because Donald Trump and the Republican party failed in responding to covid. They then spent billions of dollars to re-frame covid as a social issue to try and get Trump re-elected. When the conservatives realized their base was getting more energized from this issue as opposed to deficit hawk, and other talking points they decided this will be their election message for the next couple cycles. 

Everything else you said I completly agree with.

So the message is stop supporting the conservative party because they will burn the country down.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Californication

[doner24 | 1,196]

55 minutes ago, Californication said:

The balance your talking about isn't inhehrently difficult though. This was turned into a social issue because Donald Trump and the Republican party failed in responding to covid. They then spent billions of dollars to re-frame covid as a social issue to try and get Trump re-elected. When the conservatives realized their base was getting more energized from this issue as opposed to deficit hawk, and other talking points they decided this will be their election message for the next couple cycles. 

Everything else you said I completly agree with.

So the message is stop supporting the conservative party because they will burn the country down.

Not inherently difficult? I absolutely disagree and believe that people that believe that are a huge part of the reason why it’s so political at this point. There is a huge social cost to shutdowns/regulations that affect kids, businesses, mental health and many other things, the impact of some which we won’t likely know for a generation. It’s the most difficult situation people as a whole have seen in at least 4 generations, nothing about it or the decisions made is easy. 

[Californication | 1,477]

1 minute ago, doner24 said:

Not inherently difficult? I absolutely disagree and believe that people that believe that are a huge part of the reason why it’s so political at this point. There is a huge social cost to shutdowns/regulations that affect kids, businesses, mental health and many other things, the impact of some which we won’t likely know for a generation. It’s the most difficult situation people as a whole have seen in at least 4 generations, nothing about it or the decisions made is easy. 

I am specifically talking about personal freedom v. public health as it relates to the vaccine which reduces the duration of every issue you pointed to.

[doner24 | 1,196]

8 minutes ago, Californication said:

I am specifically talking about personal freedom v. public health as it relates to the vaccine which reduces the duration of every issue you pointed to.

It doesn’t change the issues that happen during those events/restrictions. 

[Californication | 1,477]

1 hour ago, doner24 said:

It doesn’t change the issues that happen during those events/restrictions. 

You're right, I agree the restrictions are not easy.

But again those restrictions have gotten extended over and over because of the actions of the conservative party. They didn't prepare for the threat or react to it until it spread everywhere. And now that we have a vaccine we can't reach herd immunity because the conservative party has sown so much dissent that large sectors of the population refuse to get vaccinated.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Californication

[doner24 | 1,196]

13 minutes ago, Californication said:

You're right, I agree the restrictions are not easy.

But again those restrictions have gotten extended over and over because of the actions of the conservative party. They didn't prepare for the threat or react to it until it spread everywhere. And now that we have a vaccine we can't reach herd immunity because the conservative party has sown so much descent that large sectors of the population refuse to get vaccinated.

I don’t disagree with you. I’m from an area that is highly unvaccinated. They all wore masks, and went into full shut down last year for a few months. Friends lost businesses, children lost a year of school, others went into depression and 1 even committed suicide. I’ve tried to get a lot of my friends to get the vaccine, but at this point they don’t trust any government, as the goal posts keep moving to them. It’s definitely not cut and dry. 

[Californication | 1,477]

2 minutes ago, doner24 said:

I don’t disagree with you. I’m from an area that is highly unvaccinated. They all wore masks, and went into full shut down last year for a few months. Friends lost businesses, children lost a year of school, others went into depression and 1 even committed suicide. I’ve tried to get a lot of my friends to get the vaccine, but at this point they don’t trust any government, as the goal posts keep moving to them. It’s definitely not cut and dry. 

That's really sad. I don't wish those things on anyone and that is why I try and repeat what I believe are objective facts. I am sure I sound like a d#%! sometimes, but my goal is to point out things (uncomfortable things) at times, that I believe are facts as far as I can tell so that whether people agree/disagree they may at least for a second question false narratives. 

[doner24 | 1,196]

10 minutes ago, Californication said:

That's really sad. I don't wish those things on anyone and that is why I try and repeat what I believe are objective facts. I am sure I sound like a d#%! sometimes, but my goal is to point out things (uncomfortable things) at times, that I believe are facts as far as I can tell so that whether people agree/disagree they may at least for a second question false narratives. 

I’m a scientist by education, and work in the health care industry so I understand all the facts and try to make it as simple as I can when I talk to them. I also understand their hesitancy after all they’ve been asked to do. 

[spacepup | 2,405]

3 hours ago, Shmup said:

I get where you're coming from, and maybe it's because I'm currently living through my sixth lockdown that has taken away my sympathy for anti-vaxxers, but I just can't have any sympathy for someone that has had ample opportunity, and in some cases, actually tries to convince others not to get vaccinated or try animal medicine. They're causing more harm to society with their crazy theories imo.

Personally I believe that if a country has given ample time to get vaccinated and has ample supply to cover the nation then they should be prioritising vaccinated people and non vaccinated with a medical exemption in the hospital system. Anti-vaxxers can get an ICU bed if there's one available after the people doing the right thing. Prioritise those who are actually trying to save society over those who are trying to destroy it. Resources should be focused on remote communities and helping the disadvantaged not those who berate people on talk shows and try to convince people of conspiracy theories.

This all probably  sounds very cold and bitter, but my city has tried to do the right thing in saving lives with lockdowns and to have anti-vaxxers try and spread misinformation makes me angry and gives me little sympathy for them. 

To be honest, I think you missed the main point of my comments, which wasn't really as much about being sympathetic or not to someone who ignored science and faced consequences, but that it's more complicated than that, and I do feel sympathy toward the situation - their friends, family, coworkers.  Maybe someone lost a mom.  Maybe someone lost a child.  Maybe those people even fought hard for that person to make what they viewed were the "right" decisions and it wasn't enough, and they'll live the rest of their lives with guilt feeling like maybe they could have done more.

My point is, death is tragedy regardless how it happens.  I do believe that some people are facing consequences for their actions, but I don't see much value in the darwin-style comments because I actually think that even UNDERMINES the seriousness of why getting more people vaccinated is still important.  Practically, we can't (and won't) turn people away from hospitals who didn't get vaccinated.  Therefore, natural selection is not going to "solve" this problem.  People not being safe is going to continue to impact others negatively.  

Also, I know we see the big extremes here - the people staunchly urging the vaccine and being conservative (health standpoint, not political), and then the other extreme of the crazy anti-vaxxer who ignores all science.  But there is a still a swath of people somewhere in the middle.  And I don't think A L L of their deaths are 'deserved.'

[Californication | 1,477]

1 hour ago, doner24 said:

I’m a scientist by education, and work in the health care industry so I understand all the facts and try to make it as simple as I can when I talk to them. I also understand their hesitancy after all they’ve been asked to do. 

You understand their hesitancy in not getting vaccinated or in not wanting more restrictions?

[Estil | 1,265]

3 hours ago, Californication said:

I am specifically talking about personal freedom v. public health as it relates to the vaccine which reduces the duration of every issue you pointed to.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...I wonder why Thomas Jefferson listed "life" first?

[doner24 | 1,196]

1 hour ago, Californication said:

You understand their hesitancy in not getting vaccinated or in not wanting more restrictions?

Their hesitancy in trusting anything that is told to them at this point from the government.