Game Debate #118: Ghosts 'n Goblins

[Reed Rothchild | 9,561]

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

It's an above average game, but it seems to be more legendary for its difficulty than actually being a top tier title. It's still a solid 7/10 for me.

[Nintegageo | 582]

7. Was okay but really got outshined by its later titles.

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

Great game.

[Tulpa | 3,526]

NES version is fun but REALLY rough around the edges like a lot of early Capcom games were.

[Lynda Monica | 350]

I played through both loops of this game three times and thought long and hard about it before coming to my conclusion on it back in the day, so this is coming from someone who knows their way around this game. I genuinely think this is a really bad video game with nothing going for it, and it gets a free ride on the legacy of much better sequels like Ghouls N Ghosts and Super Ghouls n Ghosts. NES Ghosts N Goblins does not have a single good thing about it that earns it any of its reputation, and I'd say it's not worth playing for any reason.

Edit: The arcade version you can make much more of a case for though, and it's pretty solid. If we're strictly talking the NES version though, it's horrible.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Lynda Monica
Clarifying about which version we're talking about.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,561]

29 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

Great game.

 

[PII | 1,890]

From: What makes your favorite games, your favorite?

Ghosts & Goblins: It's the enemy behavior.  Although there are patterns to be deciphered and relied upon there is a great deal of variability in how an enemy will move and attack and no matter how many successive play-throughs one gets into it, that behavior continues to change and thus offers seemingly no end to new flick-of-the-wrist situations that require quick thinking and improvisation.

~~~

I love it.  Probably the most intense fun I've had playing a run and gun.  Abnormal and in-approximate level designs make for a great experience strategizing for success.  The elation that comes from beating a boss for the first time or managing to slip through some new situation as described above is too much fun.

It was once the case that a port that varied more from its Arcade ancestor was seen as inferior to one that varied less.  With time, the inversion can become true.  What's better than a new variation/experience based off of something great that you love?  

Ghosts & Goblins is like killing 2 birds with one stone and then finding out you can keep going and make that stone ricochet for 4 more!

If I had to be sealed away with a couple handfuls of video games, this would be one of 'em.

Edited September 8, 2022 by PII

[MagusSmurf | 577]

My first time with the arcade version, I got home from work, took my dog for a walk, ate dinner, and, uh, played the game for like the next ~8-9 hours late into the night out of sheer stubbornness until I beat it. (totally had work the next day too) Kept playing for a bit after winning and think I made it to Level 3 or 4 on a single credit. Walked away thinking "well yeah, that was hard and killed me a lot and all, but it's difficulty...seems ridiculously, wildly overstated?"

Then later I gave 2 or 3 serious tries at the NES version (hadn't ever played it before) on weekend days and couldn't get it done. You can kinda tell from a quick look that the NES version is not the best conversion, but I'm not really sure what may have actually changed enough to substantially effect the overall difficulty. Some weapons don't effect certain bosses now and that's really dumb but generally insignificant. The second half of Level 2 probably gave me way more trouble on NES (Level 2 second loop was definitely where my furthest attempt ended) so there me be something specifically odd there. There's even an Armor in Level 5 that I'm pretty sure wasn't there in the arcade version so that change at least would make it easier. I can only guess they really messed with the enemy behavior in subtle annoying ways, probably unintentionally given this was an early NES port of a Capcom game.

Or maybe I just fluked through my arcade playthrough or totally fucked up my attempts at the NES game. Who knows? I've seen claims online the Arcade version is even harder based on a few details but it often came across like the people saying that didn't necessarily actually have experience with the Arcade game and were just expecting it to be harder based on a few factoids they knew about the differences.

I'd figure 6 for the Arcade version I guess? It's a decent enough action-platformer but probably outdone a bit by its successors, both in its series and the genre in general.

Edited September 8, 2022 by MagusSmurf

[a3quit4s | 4,116]

I just broke a controller reading the title of this post lol

I voted a 6. I’d be an odd day if I picked this up over a Mega Man to be frustrated to no end 

Edited September 8, 2022 by a3quit4s

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

3 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

 

You sob! Lol

dang! I miss toxie!!!

Edited September 9, 2022 by docile tapeworm

[JamesRobot | 5,810]

54 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

You sob! Lol

dang! I miss toxie!!!

Toxie am become @jerbilly

[Sumez | 2,970]

I'm confused. Why is the first post showing the NES cover?
I voted for Ghosts 'n Goblins, please don't tell me this debate is intended for the ghastly NES port?

There's a really odd bias in favor of that port on this forum for some reason that I've never seen anywhere else. Can we do anything to kill it? 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,970]

Either way, here's my personal thoughts on Ghosts n Goblins, the 1985 arcade game 

Ghosts n Goblins is a classic platform game no one can afford to ignore when looking at the genre. If it weren't for Super Mario Bros. it would have been the major leap forward taken in 1985, since 81's Donkey Kong. I'd argue it paved the way for both Contra, Castlevania, Mega Man, and pretty much any pure action focused action platfomer that followed in its wake.
It has both its amount of jank, but also its infamous difficulty. The floating platforms on stage 4 are just super weird and unintuitive (but a non-issue the moment you know where to go), and the constant screen flashing whenever the game is scrolling vertically is straight up headache inducing.
And there's too many versions of the game where some design element drags the game down, including the most commonly cloned variant (the earliest US one I think?) which has both the double unicorns on stage 6 (literally impossible to avoid without tanking damage) and the strangely harder versions of the Satan boss which takes twice as many hits and behave so erratically that the fight basically comes down to luck. You can beat the one on stage 5 if you get there with an armor, but good luck with stage 6! A friend of mine has looped the game over four times on a credit, without losing any life on the first two loops, and he's only 2-looped that version once.
I don't even remember which version my PCB originally is, but I burned a couple of EPROMs with the later Japanese revision (which has the original Satan boss, but a couple of bug fixes too), and I highly recommend everyone playing that version. I believe this is the version that's been included in every official port since the PS1 one as well. So if you're playing Capcom Classics Collection, or Capcom Arcade Stadium, etc. you should be good.

And of course, don't let the legendary difficulty put you down! The game is super hard, but to be honest it doesn't get bad until stage 5. And hell, several of the most popular contemporary ports don't even have those last two stages.
I think the reason the game has its reputation is the fact that while most arcade games would give you a chill stage 1 to lure you in, and then immediately expect you to git gud or pay up - GnG just tries to murder you from the first few steps. The chokepoint here for most people would be the red arremer that appears less than a minute into the game! Designed specifically to avoid all the attacks you might throw at it, I'd argue it's a really interesting example of early genuine enemy AI. Of course though, there's a trick to beating him, a few different tricks actually. And once you learn those tricks, he's a complete non-issue, and I think that's the core of the game most of the way - don't just go in guns blazing, you need a plan for how to make it through. And don't feel ashamed to look up tricks online, the game was definitely designed with arcade players sharing strategies in mind. The fast-fire trick might not even be intentional, but you need to know it. One of the other big sources of frustration in the game is the constantly randomly spawning enemies, but just like with the arremers, there is always a way to plan around those, and mitigate the threats of the RNG.
Once you have a plan, the first two stages should be over in a breeze, after which the real game starts.

Absolute classic. It pales in comparison to its own immediate sequel - Ghouls n Ghosts is arguably in the top 3 best arcade games ever made - but still a solid 8/10 to me personally.

The NES port? Micronics are famous for making janky and buggy ports of arcade games, running at 20 FPS and breaking in odd unexpected ways. The added requirement of using specific weapons for specific bosses just drags this port down even further, and it's honestly a disgrace to the original Ghosts n Goblins that anyone would ever judge the game based on that port. If you're able to enjoy it, then that's great, I won't fault you. But it does in no way represent any of what the original game stands for.

4/10 or something like that

[Webhead123 | 687]

I struggled between giving it a 6 or 7 but I ultimately went with 6 because of the overall jankiness of the port as well as the ludicrous difficulty. I really like the idea of the game but it is a case where I think the follow up (Ghouls & Ghosts) delivered on the promise much better than the original, to the point where it doesn't even feel like a "sequel" as much as it feels like a "second attempt" with the knowledge and experience of developing the first game.

It's a game I'll still fire up every once in a while because it feels like a bit of a classic and it still tempts you with interesting ideas. But most sessions of it end pretty early in frustration, so I can't say it ranks among my favorites or anything.

So yeah, 6/10.

[DefaultGen | 5,415]

I went 7. I dunno if we're talking NES or arcade. Arcade is probably a bit higher, NES maybe a bit lower. As janky as the NES game is, for an early NES game it's still pretty badass. I'd pick it over playing most other early NES games. People still come back to Ghosts n Goblins because it's a classic, even bad NES version. No one is replaying Chubby Cherub or Karate Champ and talking about what overlooked gems they are.

[Tanooki | 4,943]

Well now the scoring on this one a day out is pretty divisive already now isn't it?  I mean, I guess I do get it in retrospective given the fact those (largely) turd farmers at Micronics did the work on this for Capcom.  They're known for doing some pretty piss poor work in the era this one popped out, largely for Capcom and SNK around 1986-1988 and faded out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronics enough of their work just being panned, and others just quietly enjoyed or tolerated I guess because they were never great at their jobs, just varying levels of serviceability in the end.  GnG fell on the good side along with the non-localized SonSon and Elevator Action we did see, yet you got steaming piles of issues to downright buggy problems with 1942, Commando, Athena, the Ikari Warriors games, you get the idea.

Ghosts n Goblins is a bridge for them, games after by date, still largely arcade titles or inspired showed largely more and more improvement.  GnG showed this.  The game itself unlike earlier stuff with glitches and issues (or just sucking) isn't actually broken, but in their own limited style as they're not technically great game coders at all, they pulled off GnG competently.  The stages are intact, the audio is ported quite nicely for the format, controls do work as they should, items and weapons drop and respond right, nothing here is just bad, it just doesn't excel.  Maybe it's the earlier era as it's a 1986 title, but they really cut some corners on the system for the visuals, beyond what really should likely have been done.  Looking at the likes of Elevator Action and SonSon I mentioned they seem to just not be great at smooth scrolling or better than minimally details graphics. GnG has this issue, very basic small sprites small details visuals that repeat a bit more than necessary. And in motion it ticks along, doesn't just smooth scroll.  It's not had enough to hurt since GnG isn't a fast game either.  Other than being CONGRATURATED for story in a happy end, it's done fine.  The controls work, the audio is nice, the visuals are crappier than they should have been in that year but not awful, and the challenge is ever bit as nasty as the arcade game (I used to be able to finish both to compare years ago.)  I can't recommend it to someone who wants a Mario style challenge, but if you want a fair but ball buster difficulty title that works fine, it's an easy suggestion.

[JamesRobot | 5,810]

6 feels about right.  I bust it out every once in awhile.  Suck at it pretty hard though.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,014]

I honestly don't know how good the game is bc it's so fuckin hard. Ive played it enough those to like to play it I just could never devote the time to develop my g&g skills

[mbd39 | 2,026]

6 or 7. It deserves its place in history, but both Ghouls n Ghosts and Super Ghouls n Ghosts are so much better.

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

16 hours ago, Sumez said:

I'm confused. Why is the first post showing the NES cover?
I voted for Ghosts 'n Goblins, please don't tell me this debate is intended for the ghastly NES port?

There's a really odd bias in favor of that port on this forum for some reason that I've never seen anywhere else. Can we do anything to kill it? 

Nothing you can do...    I absolutely adore this game, I don't care how many warts and wrinkles it has.  I don't care that it was ported by Micronics and I don't care that all the other ports and sequels are supposedly better - all I know is that I love the NES game to death.

[doner24 | 1,197]

Good gamers will give this a 7-8, bad gamers will give it a 5 or less. Don’t be a bad gamer. 

[MagusSmurf | 577]

7 hours ago, doner24 said:

Good gamers will give this a 7-8, bad gamers will give it a 5 or less. Don’t be a bad gamer. 

I guess I’m just okay then?

...I’ll take it.

[Link | 2,715]

I heard it's janky.

[AirVillain | 490]

Good discussion.

I love it. 

NES port is not too broken, but still playable and updated from the Commodore 64 version I played first, so I've always loved it. 

And as an adult to attempt to try to play through the entire game is a fun challenge. Getting passed each section feels like a huge victory. 

 

On 9/8/2022 at 5:12 PM, PII said:

From: What makes your favorite games, your favorite?

Ghosts & Goblins: It's the enemy behavior.  Although there are patterns to be deciphered and relied upon there is a great deal of variability in how an enemy will move and attack and no matter how many successive play-throughs one gets into it, that behavior continues to change and thus offers seemingly no end to new flick-of-the-wrist situations that require quick thinking and improvisation.

~~~

I love it.  Probably the most intense fun I've had playing a run and gun.  Abnormal and in-approximate level designs make for a great experience strategizing for success.  The elation that comes from beating a boss for the first time or managing to slip through some new situation as described above is too much fun.

It was once the case that a port that varied more from its Arcade ancestor was seen as inferior to one that varied less.  With time, the inversion can become true.  What's better than a new variation/experience based off of something great that you love?  

Ghosts & Goblins is like killing 2 birds with one stone and then finding out you can keep going and make that stone ricochet for 4 more!

If I had to be sealed away with a couple handfuls of video games, this would be one of 'em.

 

Yes, this is a game that epitomizes the feeling of accomplishment when you beat a boss, especially for the first time. 

For me, it would have been on the Commodore 64.... I remember even SEEING the boss was a huge accomplishment. 

 

On 9/9/2022 at 4:22 AM, Sumez said:

I'm confused. Why is the first post showing the NES cover?
I voted for Ghosts 'n Goblins, please don't tell me this debate is intended for the ghastly NES port?

There's a really odd bias in favor of that port on this forum for some reason that I've never seen anywhere else. Can we do anything to kill it? 

"Odd bias"?  "Odd bias" for one of the greatest NES games of all time from a forum whose members love and adore the OG system that gave birth to so many favourites, GNG on NES being one of them???

I find your claim for an odd bias to be odd.

Who is this Sumez anyways? Sounds like a perfect name for a bot. Or a Sega fan. 

I mean, just joshin' around, but really... "ghastly"? I get the pun, but let's not be rude to some of the ones that paved the way.