Game Debate #118: Ghosts 'n Goblins

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

3 hours ago, AirVillain said:

I find your claim for an odd bias to be odd.

Who is this Sumez anyways? Sounds like a perfect name for a bot. Or a Sega fan. 

I mean, just joshin' around, but really... "ghastly"? I get the pun, but let's not be rude to some of the ones that paved the way. 

He's not from around these parts   It may come as a surprise to Sumez, but here in North America the NES port was never reviled or looked ill upon until the internet era, similar to what happened with Zelda II.  I've actually never met a NES gamer who hates G'N'G; I've met tons of guys who hate it's difficulty, but no one who actually hates the game itself.  In fact, the whole reason this series has had a retro-resurgence, so to speak, is because of the NES port.  Think about it, how many people do you think were introduced to this game through the arcade port (hell, how many people have ever even played the arcade port?).  It was the NES game that introduced almost all of us to this franchise, and it set a high standard for the series from the get-go...

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Not to mention despite the ability of the GBC, the moment Capcom sought to make GnG for the handheld, what did they do?  Straight up ported the NES game graphics and all, added an arrange mode, and also a password thankfully given it's a handheld.  The PW does you *NO* favors, it saves your remaining lives, so no way you can skate through on reloads.

[rdrunner | 422]

8/10 - It's no Zelda 2, but I agree that this game gets a bad rap thanks to the internet (Bayou Billy is my other favorite example of this). I was a child of the 80's and during that time I didn't hear anything bad about this game.

Well, that's not completely true, I do remember a back-handed review from one of those Jeff Rovin books where I believe he said that Ghosts N Goblins was "as much fun as having your gums tattooed, but at least you get your money's worth.". He still gave it high ratings despite this comment.

On the other side, I had my copy of The Official Nintendo Player's Guide with a nice review of this game. Other than laughably using "The Magic Castle" as part of their titles for three different stages, it was a great read that really made me want to play the game. Almost every game reviewed in this book was a genuine hit and this was no exception.

Anyway, I definitely believe that this game lives up to the challenge hype.  I struggled through this game as a kid with a ton of continues and had a good time with it.  Even today I have yet to 1cc the whole thing, having only reached stage 6 on the second loop. I didn't find the gameplay annoying at all. The only minor gripe I have is that slow map screen that displays every time you start a life. Seriously, couldn't they speed up that thing or just nix it?

I've also played this in the arcade and honestly I like the NES version more. Not sure if it's just my long-time experience with the NES prior to playing arcade, but I found arcade to be lacking a bit, if only because I could spot all the ways that it was different and kept thinking that they felt "wrong".  That probably makes me resistant to change more than anything else, but at least I'm aware of the issue.

Anyway, solid game!

[cj_robot | 546]

Blech! 2/10

I never understood the admiration people have for this game. I guess there's something there I just don't get, but yeah... definitely not for me. Maybe the arcade game is good? (never played it), but the NES port is sloppy doodoo. Go ahead and tell me to get gud, whatever. This game hates my guts, so why shouldn't I hate it back?

[T-Pac | 7,587]

Maybe I'd have an opinion on this game if I could even make it past Firebrand...

-CasualCart

[NESfiend | 1,515]

This game is on the list of games I thought were bad until it found its way into the weekly contests. Really fun game to play for score. Point racking it is a blast. 

[Sumez | 2,994]

On 9/10/2022 at 11:27 PM, AirVillain said:

"Odd bias"?  "Odd bias" for one of the greatest NES games of all time from a forum whose members love and adore the OG system that gave birth to so many favourites, GNG on NES being one of them???

  I'm an absolutely massive fan of the NES. But judging a game on an obviously super flawed and janky port of that game is unquestionably odd. I've never seen this bias in any other community.

On 9/10/2022 at 11:27 PM, AirVillain said:

I mean, just joshin' around, but really... "ghastly"? I get the pun, but let's not be rude to some of the ones that paved the way. 

Ghosts n Goblins absolutely paved the way for a lot of things, and the series as a whole is an all-time favourite of mine. The game is a massive classic, but... yeah, I'm repeating myself  

[Sumez | 2,994]

 

On 9/11/2022 at 3:06 AM, Dr. Morbis said:

In fact, the whole reason this series has had a retro-resurgence, so to speak, is because of the NES port.  Think about it, how many people do you think were introduced to this game through the arcade port (hell, how many people have ever even played the arcade port?).

That's just not true at all.  The fact that you're a part of a (north american??) NES-centric niche who never set foot in an arcade (which were huge in 1985) or played any other platforms doesn't make it a global truth. If only the NES port existed, GnG would never have been the influential smash hit it was today - rather the NES port only exists because of how succesful the arcade game was.
The arcade game isn't a "port", it's the original game, it's the game as it was created by the designers who invented it, and it's the version which has been released to various home platforms countless times since the 90s, at which time both the otherwise succesful NES and C64 ports were immediately superseeded.
I'm aware VideoGameSage was founded on the ashes of a forum which was designed to cater primarily to NES cartridge collectors, but there is no reason to wear those lenses in this context.  Appreciate and celebrate video games, regardless of personal nostalgia.

With that in mind, I do totally respect the fact that you love the NES port, and it's not like I'd have any interest in making you like it any less! I think it's great when people see qualities in flawed products. But I'm far from the only person in this thread who's called it out for what it is, and I'd wager there's probably more than a few people who think Ghosts 'n Goblins is a worse game than it actually is because they have only played one of the ports. And that's my primary "concern".

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

Me referencing this forum:

Edited September 13, 2022 by docile tapeworm

[mbd39 | 2,029]

On 9/11/2022 at 7:31 AM, rdrunner said:

8/10 - It's no Zelda 2, but I agree that this game gets a bad rap thanks to the internet (Bayou Billy is my other favorite example of this). I was a child of the 80's and during that time I didn't hear anything bad about this game.

 

 

I've always liked Bayou Billy even when I rented it as a kid. Same with Ghosts n Goblins, although  I much prefer Ghouls n Ghosts, and the jankiness of the NES port is more apparent to me now. Games were usually hard back then, so I wasn't put off by high difficulty as long as it was fun.

I think high initial difficulty is also a factor for why people dislike certain games. People are used to a gradual ramp where the first level is easy and then gets much harder later on. Bayou Billy is tough from the beginning. That initial frustration turns off a lot of players. Even Battletoads starts with a couple easy levels.

NES Double Dragon 3 is another game that isn't that bad, but gets undue hate because of having a steep learning curve compared to the first two games.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by mbd39

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

14 hours ago, Sumez said:

 

That's just not true at all.  The fact that you're a part of a (north american??) NES-centric niche who never set foot in an arcade (which were huge in 1985) or played any other platforms doesn't make it a global truth. If only the NES port existed, GnG would never have been the influential smash hit it was today - rather the NES port only exists because of how succesful the arcade game was.

I've been in many, many arcades in my life, and I'd venture to guess that I'm older than you are, and I can honestly say that not once did I ever see a G'N'G on location.  When I was a kid there were arcade machines in every convenience store, laundromat, hotel lobby, you name it, and I never ever saw this game.  Maybe it's a locational issue or something, but that game sure as shit was not popular in Southern Alberta, Canada in any place I went to in the 80's.  But every kid I knew was aware of and had played the NES port.  Just saying...

And yeah, I can see that the NES port is "flawed" but it is still fun, and most importantly, it has that magical quality of making you want to try "just one more time" that is the hallmark of good game design, so take that for what you will...

Edited September 14, 2022 by Dr. Morbis

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

14 hours ago, Sumez said:

 

Rather the NES port only exists because of how succesful the arcade game was.

Then where did they all go?  I've been an arcade collector for almost twenty years and have a basement arcade with some games that are so rare you've probably never heard of them, and yet I can't find a nice original G'N'G.  It's right near the top of my want list too and I've had it listed as "wanted" on klov's vaps since I joined there and yet I've still never even seen one in person, never mind one that was up for sale within 200 miles.  So I'm curious what your definition of "succesful" is because you make it sound like this game was on par with Ms Pac-Man.  Where did they all go???????

Edited September 14, 2022 by Dr. Morbis

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

@Sumez @Dr. Morbis I’m sitting here anxiously waiting for one of you to throw a “furthermore” in.

[Tulpa | 3,534]

It is fun watching two of VGS's titans of stubborness go at each other. Where's fcgamer? He's usually smack in the middle of these.

[Link | 2,727]

He only wants to harangue people about his own topics that nobody else actually cares about.

[Optomon | 65]

Strangely I do enjoy this game, because I played it a lot as a kid, but I can't condone it's torturous level design. Learning how to deal with red devils is half of the game's difficulty.

2/10

[Tanooki | 4,952]

Henceforth the tapeworm does raise a good point, thus I will add into this quorum the fact I have played GnG on location, at a boys n girls club facility around I guess 1990 at latest, same place where I also mastered Mario Bros and Super Dodgeball.  I never could 1 credit the bloody thing but I could actually finish it on a 50cent to dollar run.  Sure the NES game is flawed, but it's superficial, mostly half assed corner cutting due to lack of outright skill on the part of Micronics.  Sure it doesn't scroll as smooth as the arcade, definitely color limited, sprites could have been worked around though more so, lack of detail is a bit much too.  But the core game, the stages, how stuff works in general, it's right.  It's a game that spits in your face yet still makes you want to push it just a bit further.  A lot, when they're that hard, fail to do it, they just piss you off and you're done with it, this one applies that sweet spot of taunt level.

[AirVillain | 491]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:31 AM, rdrunner said:

8/10 - It's no Zelda 2, but I agree that this game gets a bad rap thanks to the internet (Bayou Billy is my other favorite example of this). I was a child of the 80's and during that time I didn't hear anything bad about this game.

Well, that's not completely true, I do remember a back-handed review from one of those Jeff Rovin books where I believe he said that Ghosts N Goblins was "as much fun as having your gums tattooed, but at least you get your money's worth.". He still gave it high ratings despite this comment.

On the other side, I had my copy of The Official Nintendo Player's Guide with a nice review of this game. Other than laughably using "The Magic Castle" as part of their titles for three different stages, it was a great read that really made me want to play the game. Almost every game reviewed in this book was a genuine hit and this was no exception.

Anyway, I definitely believe that this game lives up to the challenge hype.  I struggled through this game as a kid with a ton of continues and had a good time with it.  Even today I have yet to 1cc the whole thing, having only reached stage 6 on the second loop. I didn't find the gameplay annoying at all. The only minor gripe I have is that slow map screen that displays every time you start a life. Seriously, couldn't they speed up that thing or just nix it?

I've also played this in the arcade and honestly I like the NES version more. Not sure if it's just my long-time experience with the NES prior to playing arcade, but I found arcade to be lacking a bit, if only because I could spot all the ways that it was different and kept thinking that they felt "wrong".  That probably makes me resistant to change more than anything else, but at least I'm aware of the issue.

Anyway, solid game!

Do we need to hear anymore? 

 

On 9/11/2022 at 9:37 AM, CasualCart said:

Maybe I'd have an opinion on this game if I could even make it past Firebrand...

-CasualCart

 

I remember him being so annoying, haha. Like, why is there this red devil beast that kills me everytime so soon???

Once I figured out a decent and somewhat effective strategy for defeating the very FIRST red devil (as we called him ) it was a mega game changer and I felt like I could conquer the world. 

When he swoops at you run in the opposite direction and shoot your daggers, you can sometimes hit him twice in one pass. Then when he's in the air run to the other side and throw your daggers as you run away once again. Rinse and repeat, but I found I had to beat him in 2 passes or I'm effed.

 

On 9/13/2022 at 5:46 AM, Sumez said:

I'm aware VideoGameSage was founded on the ashes of a forum which was designed to cater primarily to NES cartridge collectors, but there is no reason to wear those lenses in this context.  Appreciate and celebrate video games, regardless of personal nostalgia.

 

Okay, so.... now before shit gets outta hand.... 

You're not about to call Skinny and others out because they are OG's of *redacted (this is a sarcastic joke that I like to think is funny b/c NA was cataclysmically fucked up and don't like saying it's name).

THANK GOD PPL LIKE GLOVES PICKED UP THE ASHES AND STARTED SOMETHING EVEN BETTER. 

THANK GOD PPL LIKE SKINNY/REED CAME HERE TO MAKE THIS THE MOST WONDERFUL PLACE ON THE INTERWEBS. 

DON'T YOU EVER TRY TO USE THAT AGAINST US WHEN WE GIVE OUR VIEWS. NA DIED A TERRIBLE DEATH FOR A LOT OF US AND VGA HAS RISEN LIKE A PHOENIX FROM ITS ASHES TO ALLOW US ALL TO LIVE.

VGS. ALLOWS. US. TO. LIVE. 


 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by AirVillain

[G-type | 2,523]

too hard.