WATA Finally Getting Sued?

[final fight cd | 187]

7 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

@Gulag Joeyou seem like a fine guy, I just continue to find it head scratching as to why you feel the need to defend Wata at every turn. Folks manipulated the market and lots of people lost a TON of money due to said manipulation. This is not that difficult to decipher. Read the room.

It seems like, at least part of it, is to get a rise out of people.  Aka trolling.  

[CIB_Wholesale | 418]

6 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

@Gulag Joeyou seem like a fine guy, I just continue to find it head scratching as to why you feel the need to defend Wata at every turn. Folks manipulated the market and lots of people lost a TON of money due to said manipulation. This is not that difficult to decipher. Read the room.

 

i know rite?

that guy should be paid. and the 1.56M guy.

in fact California has the most strict rules about it:

 

 

 

the room is pretty empty !!! funny to look  back at all the unpaid promotions

 

(wata)what happened?

 

 

[a3quit4s | 4,102]

1 hour ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

@Gulag Joeyou seem like a fine guy, I just continue to find it head scratching as to why you feel the need to defend Wata at every turn. Folks manipulated the market and lots of people lost a TON of money due to said manipulation. This is not that difficult to decipher. Read the room.

I mean every bubble that comes along some people get rich and some people get poor. Haven’t heard from @jonebone in awhile since he is probably out on his mega yacht because he foresaw the bubble, took advantage, and bounced. And there is absolutely no problem with that! People spend their money how they wish. My theory on bubbles is usually by the time I hear about it, it’s already too late. This rings true for most things and most crypto save for a for that climb in value, crash, climb in value, repeat. What I have heard on this WATA thing is a lot of speculation with little proof. Maybe it will come along during court proceedings if they actually happen, who knows. If there was really that smoking gun where it was tied up nice that WATA and HA and whoever else was involved this - it would all already be over. Maybe some people get their money back and the world goes on another day. I guess this one is just fun to debate since it involves our hobby and while it’s a hobby for some it’s a livelihood for others. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by a3quit4s

[fcgamer | 4,729]

3 hours ago, Gulag Joe said:

For the racketeering, the plaintiffs will have to prove that their games were intentionally held indefinitely so Wata could sell other, similar games for the high amounts. I think the only remote way for this to work is if one of them had, for example, Tecmo Bowl, which sold for $144k. And then the next one sold for half that amount. But because Wata held on to their game for so long, the plaintiff couldnt capitalize on the sale of their game because wata wanted to sell their own game first.

Why am I suddenly getting flashbacks to my sealed John Madden?

[Tanooki | 4,936]

34 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Why am I suddenly getting flashbacks to my sealed John Madden?

Denial as your sketchy Taiwanese vidier games have no value as it came from a den of pirates and thieves.   Next time you fire up the shrinkwrap machine, remember not to load it with saran wrap.

[RH | 4,915]

2 hours ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

One point that I find interesting that has NOT been brought up in the lawsuit (as far as I know), is the fact that one of Wata's business practices is to inform customers if the game they submitted is "valued" higher than what the customer said its declared value was for Liability* purposes. In this scenario, Wata forces the customer - while they literally have the customer's game in their physical possession - to pay substantially more if they would like the grading to be completed. What does Wata base the "value" of the game on you ask for these purposes? Oh glad you asked! Heritage Auctions results. Which Wata has ALLEGEDLY played a substantial role in manipulating said prices, and therefore profits off of this "Liability" "value" scam. See where I am going with this? It is all just gross.

 

* "Liability is included in the price of games valued below $1,000. Games valued from $1,000 to $2,499 are charged more for liability, on a sliding scale. Games valued at and over $2,500 are charged an additional 2% of their declared value. If your order contained undervalued games WE MAY ADJUST PRICING FOR CORRECT LIABILITY COSTS."

- Source - www.watagames.com/what-we-do/pricing

I had forgotten about this point (sorry guys, I don't lay asleep at night, waiting for new information on this topic) but IMHO, THAT could hit them the hardest.

I think it has been documented that many of the major sales figures came from the people on the boards of Wata and HA.  These people hyped sealed games to the moon, they then created a "path" to get those games on to Heritage Auctions where all the big money was being made but oh, "darn it all!" Wata is sooooo swamped your games will take months to years to turn around.

And what's happening on the back-end?  Auctions on HA, for that first 6-9 months, were smashing records.  And I bet the people that owned a larger percentage of those games were on a board for Wata or HA.

In other words... they pent up supply, while hyping demand.  Compound that with the fact that HA made ALL the news (not eBay) and you could ONLY sell Wata graded games on HA, all parties involved were making hand-over-fist.

The icing on the cake for them was this pointed out above--while they held your games until the bubbles burst, they were making you pay 2% of PRIME value!

There is NO WAY this wasn't orchestrated.  I mean, certainly Al Capone is looking up from hell, clapping his hands saying "My Satan, they've build a dream of an operation!"   These guys had their hands in the buying and selling side, controlled the (relevant) market and cleaned house!  And when stuff cooled off, HA kept doing their thing because, why not, and Wata was sold off to the saddest dupe of all--Collector's Universe!

[a3quit4s | 4,102]

3 minutes ago, RH said:

I had forgotten about this point (sorry guys, I don't lay asleep at night, waiting for new information on this topic) but IMHO, THAT could hit them the hardest.

I think it has been documented that many of the major sales figures came from the people on the boards of Wata and HA.  These people hyped sealed games to the moon, they then created a "path" to get those games on to Heritage Auctions where all the big money was being made but oh, "darn it all!" Wata is sooooo swamped your games will take months to years to turn around.

And what's happening on the back-end?  Auctions on HA, for that first 6-9 months, were smashing records.  And I bet the people that owned a larger percentage of those games were on a board for Wata or HA.

In other words... they pent up supply, while hyping demand.  Compound that with the fact that HA made ALL the news (not eBay) and you could ONLY sell Wata graded games on HA, all parties involved were making hand-over-fist.

The icing on the cake for them was this pointed out above--while they held your games until the bubbles burst, they were making you pay 2% of PRIME value!

There is NO WAY this wasn't orchestrated.  I mean, certainly Al Capone is looking up from hell, clapping his hands saying "My Satan, they've build a dream of an operation!"   These guys had their hands in the buying and selling side, controlled the (relevant) market and cleaned house!  And when stuff cooled off, HA kept doing their thing because, why not, and Wata was sold off to the saddest dupe of all--Collector's Universe!

It’s funny you mention Al Capone, in the end it wasn’t anything mob related that got him, it was tax evasion lmao

Edited October 26, 2023 by a3quit4s

[OptOut | 8,889]

3 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

It’s funny you mention Al Capone, in the end it wasn’t anything mob related that got him, it was tax evasion lmao

That's because they never had RICO back then...

And what is WATA/HA being charged with... Uh-oh. 

[a3quit4s | 4,102]

3 minutes ago, OptOut said:

That's because they never had RICO back then...

And what is WATA/HA being charged with... Uh-oh. 

Yup RICO was passed in the 1970. It’s interesting because any group that convenes to commit crime meets the definition of an enterprise for RICO via https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle_v._United_States so if you could prove that the entire relationship between WATA and HA was created to defraud people well there you go. Someone would have to leave an idiotic amount of dialogue somewhere for that to happen or someone gets somebody very important to flip on the others 

Edited October 26, 2023 by a3quit4s

[3rdStrongestMole | 430]

13 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

Yup RICO was passed in the 1970. It’s interesting because any group that convenes to commit crime meets the definition of an enterprise for RICO via https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle_v._United_States so if you could prove that the entire relationship between WATA and HA was created to defraud people well there you go. Someone would have to leave an idiotic amount of dialogue somewhere for that to happen or someone gets somebody very important to flip on the others 

Pretty sure Deniz would flip like a pancake. Time to put the pressure on the kid.

[RH | 4,915]

26 minutes ago, 3rdStrongestMole said:

Pretty sure Deniz would flip like a pancake. Time to put the pressure on the kid.

He's also a kid who no doubt had no clue about the severity of this behavior and probably has enough emails in his GMail (or whatever) account, dialoging the initial partnership.  Unless he met Jim early on face-to-face, and he explicitly instructed him to not do business over email and text, and only the phone and face to face, then yes, Deniz my be the anti-hero we're all hoping for. (Anti-hero being a stretch, but you get the point.)

[final fight cd | 187]

2 minutes ago, RH said:

He's also a kid who no doubt had no clue about the severity of this behavior and probably has enough emails in his GMail (or whatever) account, dialoging the initial partnership.  Unless he met Jim early on face-to-face, and he explicitly instructed him to not do business over email and text, and only the phone and face to face, then yes, Deniz my be the anti-hero we're all hoping for. (Anti-hero being a stretch, but you get the point.)

But that’s if it goes to discovery.  Discovery isn’t a for sure thing, right?

[RH | 4,915]

Just now, final fight cd said:

But that’s if it goes to discovery.  Discovery isn’t a for sure thing, right?

Correct, that is the key.  But it could.

[final fight cd | 187]

11 minutes ago, RH said:

Correct, that is the key.  But it could.

If the people involved had the intentions of manipulating markets, surely they’d be wise not to do any communications via text or email.  Only dumb criminals would do that.

[OptOut | 8,889]

7 minutes ago, final fight cd said:

If the people involved had the intentions of manipulating markets, surely they’d be wise not to do any communications via text or email.  Only dumb criminals would do that.

Well, the judge just said that the case was enough to warrant a trial, so I'm pretty sure discovery will be happening pretty soon.

And, being a criminal is dumb in itself, kinda goes with the territory, IMO.

[a3quit4s | 4,102]

I watched the Jobst video again for kicks. I forgot that GoCollect Jeff and Dain were employees who had games graded by WATA (whether former or not) and got a special label on those games. Dain probably didn’t gain by this, but Jeff sure as shit did. Jim Halperin is still the biggest dirtbag ever. HA I think is still pretty scammy, especially the story by the dude whose dad worked at HA and told him about Jim shill bidding and buying his own comics just to hype up sales values. The cloak and dagger of buyers and sellers is never good. As for actual crimes committed, I don’t know. Collusion to hype up the market definitely, but what CEO of a company doesn’t want to make more money? Plus it’s up to a buyer to be informed and I’m sure most of the investors knew this was exactly a bubble and were just trying to get in and get out while trying to make a buck. If you lose money doing so whether video games or else, it’s your money to gamble, right? In the 80’s though they rung up ole Jim and made him pay restitution and he did exactly the same thing again so why is he not getting rung up again?

One thing I’ve been curious about is where did Deniz get the money to start the company? For those that knew him on NA was he like a rich kid or something?

Edited October 26, 2023 by a3quit4s

[final fight cd | 187]

34 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

One thing I’ve been curious about is where did Deniz get the money to start the company? For those that knew him on NA was he like a rich kid or something?

I remember reading somewhere deniz comes from $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. 

[RH | 4,915]

1 hour ago, final fight cd said:

I remember reading somewhere deniz comes from $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. 

That, and I also recall hearing that his Dad was supposedly an avid collector. Not of video games, but something.  Comics... ball cards... cars?  I don't know, but supposedly he got it honest, plus he came from $$$.

Who knows, maybe he was one of those kids with a $1,000/mo allowance and when the kid wanted to turn his hobby into a business, Daddy said "let me fund it!"

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

7 hours ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

@Gulag Joeyou seem like a fine guy, I just continue to find it head scratching as to why you feel the need to defend Wata at every turn. Folks manipulated the market and lots of people lost a TON of money due to said manipulation. This is not that difficult to decipher. Read the room.

I quit for a second time (due to lack of faith in one of the staff members here)...

Swearing that I am done with video game collecting (after I sold off everything but this one USJ exclusive arcade card)...

Change my name to my original NA name...

Return to a version of Tokyo where graded Pokémon cards are a new commodity...

"Force" myself to buy a new Switch OLED at a 'tax free' store in Sumida...

Be forced to see a few people talk about some game called "Final Fantasy VII Rebirth" on Square Enix's stage during my time at Tokyo game show...

Rebuild my video game collection from that one card up...

And so on, all the way to me failing to find a NA alternative that encourages people to show off their graded games.

But yeah... CGA had a similar history during their Tom Darby days. But like those (here) that have defended everything they are doing wrong, there are those who will defend Wata as a business they like (and not much more). It can be seen as asinine, but honestly? It's more about the gratification than the list of issues for some. 

Which is why I say that I can understand somebody getting gratification from a grading company, I also agree with you that it is not an excuse to dismiss any 'behind the scenes' shit shows that have been done.

[Gulag Joe | 584]

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

6 hours ago, 3rdStrongestMole said:

Pretty sure Deniz would flip like a pancake. Time to put the pressure on the kid.

5 hours ago, RH said:

He's also a kid who no doubt had no clue about the severity of this behavior and probably has enough emails in his GMail (or whatever) account, dialoging the initial partnership.  Unless he met Jim early on face-to-face, and he explicitly instructed him to not do business over email and text, and only the phone and face to face, then yes, Deniz my be the anti-hero we're all hoping for. (Anti-hero being a stretch, but you get the point.)

You guys realize he's in his late 20s or early thirties by now?

[3rdStrongestMole | 430]

29 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

You guys realize he's in his late 20s or early thirties by

He'll always be a child in my eyes

[GPX | 1,370]

13 hours ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

One point that I find interesting that has NOT been brought up in the lawsuit (as far as I know), is the fact that one of Wata's business practices is to inform customers if the game they submitted is "valued" higher than what the customer said its declared value was for Liability* purposes. In this scenario, Wata forces the customer - while they literally have the customer's game in their physical possession - to pay substantially more if they would like the grading to be completed. What does Wata base the "value" of the game on you ask for these purposes? Oh glad you asked! Heritage Auctions results. Which Wata has ALLEGEDLY played a substantial role in manipulating said prices, and therefore profits off of this "Liability" "value" scam. See where I am going with this? It is all just gross.

 

* "Liability is included in the price of games valued below $1,000. Games valued from $1,000 to $2,499 are charged more for liability, on a sliding scale. Games valued at and over $2,500 are charged an additional 2% of their declared value. If your order contained undervalued games WE MAY ADJUST PRICING FOR CORRECT LIABILITY COSTS."

- Source - www.watagames.com/what-we-do/pricing

I’m sure this was talked about in the previous HA/WATA fire thread. Some of us were saying back then a lengthy delay was already not good for the consumers. Then to hype up the market to hyperbole, and then using solely the HA sales as a relative marker of “liability costs”, that’s just plain scummy. How much of this oversteps the boundaries of legality is the interesting question.

Edited October 27, 2023 by GPX

[GPX | 1,370]

9 hours ago, 3rdStrongestMole said:

Pretty sure Deniz would flip like a pancake. Time to put the pressure on the kid.

I dunno. He looked pretty chill and professional during his Pawn Stars skit.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

On 10/25/2023 at 8:16 AM, CIB_Wholesale said:

my favorite part of the whole thing is the 1.56M mario seller going around promoting

 

like whoa cant u hire it out to be less obvious?

I'm not sure what you mean by this? 

Fwiw, the buyer of the Mario 64 has gone public. It was Alexis Ohanian, co-founder of Reddit and husband of Serena Williams. His IG and Twitter (or whatever it's called now) are full of very high end collectibles he purchased from various different consignors across various different categories. I can assure you I'm not rolling in the same social circles as Alexis and I've never spoken or otherwise communicated with the guy in my life. The buyer of the 2 million dollar Mario also went public in this video: 

I didn't sell that game and never owned it, but since it gets mentioned, I figured it was worth mentioning. 

Regarding the lawsuit, something Pat I think got wrong is that in a Motion to Dismiss, a judge is looking solely at the complaint filed and has to take the claims by the plaintiff(s) to be true as a matter of law. Then a judge will say, assuming this is all true as claimed, could a reasonable jury make a finding of X. Surviving a Motion to Dismiss is almost automatic provided the lawyer filing it is competent.

Discovery does not begin until after a Motion to Dismiss is dealt with. After Discovery, there will usually be a filing for Summary Judgment, and that is the point in time a judge will no longer assume claims are true, but apply evidence from Discovery. So when Pat says "a judge must have seen something in the evidence," I don't believe that can be true, at least at this point in time. Rejecting a Motion to Dismiss predates Discovery, and in fact is what triggers it. 

Anyway, we'll see what happens. I know covid backed up courts all around the country, so it's taken a long time and probably will continue to do so, but maybe something happens within the next 6 months or so. I believe the next step would be conclusion of Discovery and then the Motion for Summary Judgment. If it survives that, that's when there would be either a trial or settlement.