WATA Finally Getting Sued?

[final fight cd | 187]

11 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

They’ll stop submitting once they are ordered to shut down lol

i don't how any of this works and the potential consequences, but could that be a real outcome of this?

[a3quit4s | 4,124]

Just now, final fight cd said:

i don't how any of this works and the potential consequences, but could that be a real outcome of this?

Not really sure, I don’t think there are criminal charges being brought, just civil but even if they are found liable for the civil part they are gonna be barred from running WATA/collectibles. Although last time Halperin was found guilty of fraud or whatever with coins he was right back in the game maybe not even years later. 

Who knows if there will be any real consequences of all this. The real issue here is sure they lied about shit but fools and their money are soon parted. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to try and take advantage of a speculative investment. Sure we didn’t have all the facts we do now but even in the beginning the whole thing stunk to high heaven. I’m not even sure how you put an amount of money that WATA would owe to people for being taken advantage of lol

Do you get some of that money to pay the civil suit from people who sold WATA graded for 10,000x what they are worth?

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,164]

I called all this out years ago after the Mario 64 sale of $1.5M. All of these scumbags were manipulating and propping up the market. It’s gross.

Edited February 25 by WalterWhiteJr.

[Hammerfestus | 3,881]

This is the most hilarious and entertaining way to end that whole nonsense era.  That Pat video was worth the watch.  I like that guy and I appreciate hearing his takes.   I’d like to point out that the #1 name that comes to mind for relentlessly shitting on WATA from the word go is @OptOut.  Atta boy.

Edited February 26 by Hammerfestus

[CT | 99]

I can't trust any grade from Wata, since they have proven to be deceptive.

 

[ApebitMusic | 130]

Could someone sum up this whole situation succinctly? Sorry to be that guy but I don't have the energy.

[OptOut | 8,892]

20 minutes ago, ApebitMusic said:

Could someone sum up this whole situation succinctly? Sorry to be that guy but I don't have the energy.

The entire media blitz that launched the graded game market into a frenzy was fueled by reporting on a sale of a WATA graded copy of Super Mario Bros. for 100 thousand USD.

However, that sale was engineered by people involved in the founding of WATA and other interested parties who would all greatly benefit from the resulting pump, and the sale itself wasn't even legitimate, as the "seller" also retained an interest in the game.

The pump was followed by a dump, and now a bunch of idiots lost a ton of money, and so they are suing WATA for, among other things, market manipulation.

[Khromak | 770]

There was a manufactured sealed video game bubble. WATA & HA conspired to raise prices so they could make more money from grading services (pricing based on value of the game) and auction services (commissions based on sales).

The most damning and recent evidence of this came out during a court case involving some sealed game owners suing WATA for expediting the grading of the games of their employees while giving slow service to their customers. During the deposition it came out that the 100k SMB1 was "sold" by a board member/investor of WATA to a bunch of other board members/directors/advisors of WATA/HA. The game never changed ownership because the original owner was also one of the buyers, and it seems like the whole sale was done intentionally to increase the perceived value of sealed video games.

The WATA owner also went on TV, pretended to not know the owner of the game and said it was worth 1m dollars now.

WATA employees were "forbidden" from selling their WATA-graded games, but their employees have done so and faced no repercussions. Their lead grader sold some games, one of their chief advisors sold a bunch of games, etc.

Standard fake sales, grading company staff talking about how prices are going to the moon while also making more money by charging fees based on those inflated values. Questionable ethics all around and lots of coordination/collusion. Hiding the connections between the buyers/sellers, hiding the connections between the graders/sellers. Basically trying to avoid people recognizing all the conflicts of interest.

[RH | 4,965]

I still kind of feel like targeting Wata and Co. is the wrong approach, and maybe they aren't.  I'm not calling Deniz and the early Wata team a bunch of patsies, but to create an analogy, this is more like trying to nab Al Capone's accountant, succeeding and then feeling like you won.  If Al is still running around on the streets then he can just get a new accountant.

And what do I mean by that--Jim Halperin may not be the mastermind of the whole ordeal but if you have also followed up on his history, he's the guy who's done this multiple times and has even been sued over this.  Wata needs to have justice served against them but Halperin is the one that really needs to be stopped because he seems to be the one facilitating and enabling a lot of the market manipulation through his high end auction house of Heritage Auctions.

Again, I'm not saying justice doesn't need to be served against Wata, probably, but I am saying that that's small potatoes to the real guy who keeps scheming and doing this illegally again and again and again.

Edited February 26 by RH

[Hammerfestus | 3,881]

2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

The entire media blitz that launched the graded game market into a frenzy was fueled by reporting on a sale of a WATA graded copy of Super Mario Bros. for 100 thousand USD.

However, that sale was engineered by people involved in the founding of WATA and other interested parties who would all greatly benefit from the resulting pump, and the sale itself wasn't even legitimate, as the "seller" also retained an interest in the game.

The pump was followed by a dump, and now a bunch of idiots lost a ton of money, and so they are suing WATA for, among other things, market manipulation.

These WATA dudes are total slimy scammers but I really struggle to find much sympathy for all the jag-offs who bought this crap knowing that they were gambling on a get rich quick scheme.  A fool and his money…

[RH | 4,965]

1 minute ago, Hammerfestus said:

These WATA dudes are total slimy scammers but I really struggle to find much sympathy for all the jag-offs who bought this crap knowing that they were gambling on a get rich quick scheme.  A fool and his money…

I understand and, to an extent, agree. 

However, the notion of "the fool" getting his due comeuppance isn't mutually exclusive to poor and illegal business behavior getting addressed and prosecuted by the full extent of the law.

[Hammerfestus | 3,881]

1 minute ago, RH said:

I understand and, to an extent, agree. 

However, the notion of "the fool" getting his due comeuppance isn't mutually exclusive to poor and illegal business behavior getting addressed and prosecuted by the full extent of the law.

Oh no, I agree that I’d like to see the hammer hit the WATA guys.  And I’m not saying that the fools necessarily should get  “comeuppance” just that they were very obviously gambling in the same way Wall Street Bets guys are gambling and everyone should know that the most likely outcome of those endeavors is losing your money.  They took a shot and lost and well that’s just too bad.  

[Khromak | 770]

All this talk of people who gambled with graded games is irrelevant IMO.

Sure, any investment is a gamble and people know that when they get in.

That doesn't change the fact that people who are directly profiting off increased prices were coordinating a fake sale as a promotion for the market. Meanwhile the same group of people has control over which games can get graded, what grade they get, how fast they get graded.

Companies who make more money from higher value games (WATA) shouldn't be involved in determining the prices of games (giving interviews, going on TV) and they sure as shit shouldn't be selling their own graded games.

Oh, what's that? There are 200 SMB in the warehouse waiting to be graded? Shit I'd better sell mine at the next HA event, let's put those SMB on ice until mine sells. Oh BTW bud can you make sure that's a 9.8 A++? The boss just went on TV and said this is super rare and worth a million, gotta strike while the iron's hot.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Curious to hear @Gulag Joe ‘s opinion on this. 

[a3quit4s | 4,124]

https://kotaku.com/rare-sealed-legend-zelda-nes-copy-ebay-auction-1851282362
 

I like how they are no longer selling WATA exclusive games anymore although I think they have been doing that for some time?

Anyone with a log in that can say what this sold for? From the article: The last time an OG Zelda game like this was on auction was in July 2021. Back then, a sealed copy of the game sold for $870,000

https://comics.ha.com/itm/video-games/nintendo/the-legend-of-zelda-cgc-80-a-sealed-nes-tm-no-rev-a-first-production-nes-nintendo-1987-usa/a/7359-28025.s?type=PR

Edited February 26 by a3quit4s

[RH | 4,965]

2 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

https://kotaku.com/rare-sealed-legend-zelda-nes-copy-ebay-auction-1851282362
 

I like how they are no longer selling WATA exclusive games anymore although I think they have been doing that for some time?

Anyone with a log in that can say what this sold for?

https://comics.ha.com/itm/video-games/nintendo/the-legend-of-zelda-cgc-80-a-sealed-nes-tm-no-rev-a-first-production-nes-nintendo-1987-usa/a/7359-28025.s?type=PR

$288k

 

And as one that also tries to be objective on all points the sadly ironic part to all of this is considering the importance of SMB to the American gaming market where, I'd argue that the Mario was 90% Nintendo's early success, which was 100% what pulled us out of the home console recession.

A sealed, SMB1 of the first run was bound to be valuable.  Know how collectible markets, especially associated with nostalgia, a $100k valuation for such a small run of games of this variant makes sense to me.  With a little bit of marketing, there was no need to fake the value of this.  HA is a hype machine.  WIth a few, well advertised sales and staging this one copy of SMB at the right time could have easily netted $100k, if you compare it to the hype and sell of important, mature markets like comics and ball cards.

Instead, it looks like these guys got greedy, wanted to hype the market AND hold onto all of their top shelf pieces.  I don't know the real reason for that motivation.  Maybe it was because they simply liked these items and would rather fake the sells or, maybe, they wanted to pump the market with this item and then, to put a cherry on top, sell it on top of the same bubble in 2-3 years.

But they got caught and that didn't happen.  It's a shame any way you slice it.

[a3quit4s | 4,124]

Well that is definitely down from the all time high of over $800k lol and certainly not the $700k that was speculated. $288k is still totally ridiculous imo though 

[Khromak | 770]

5 minutes ago, RH said:

A sealed, SMB1 of the first run was bound to be valuable.

second run, TBF...

[RH | 4,965]

2 minutes ago, Khromak said:

second run, TBF...

Ooooooh.... Well, maybe I'm getting confused.  Didn't someone have the only known, single copy from that first batch that still had an intact/sealed sticker?  I thought that's what this one was.

Is it still worth $100k then?  Yeah, I'm doubtful.  My bad guys, my facts were wrong.

[Khromak | 770]

The 100k one was glossy sticker, which is second print run, matte sticker is "first" print run.

This stuff is all hazy and there are lots of other factors people look at, but that's the 10,000 foot view AFAIK.

[Hammerfestus | 3,881]

Lol.  The print run thing should be trashed along with the other pieces of the WATA scam.

[RH | 4,965]

1 hour ago, Hammerfestus said:

Lol.  The print run thing should be trashed along with the other pieces of the WATA scam.

See, I can't agree to that.  If this isn't something you care about, then I could see why you would think it's all hype.  But there are some of us who have paid fine attention to the details of things we're passionate about our whole lives and for those of us who really appreciate historical context, having an item that was part of a first release, of an important item is something that you value.

I didn't get my NES in my home until 1989.  But now that I collect and own things, if I had a chance to pick up a nice conditioned copy of SMB1 from that very first US run, I'd love to have it and I'd gladly display it on my shelf.  It'd be part of that original history of that very first batch of maybe 5-10k copies that were released in the US.  This was the end of the over-produced Atari-age and from that point on, for many of us, that was a significant shift in gaming.

This is why I think early copies do matter.  It's like getting a First edition vs. Second edition or even Third edition of a book.  Tell a serious Tolkien collector that having a first edition of The Fellowship "shouldn't be a thing" and they'd laugh it off because it's well understood that the earlier you get to the type of publication, the more important, and close, the items is to the origination of it's significance.

You may not be into that type of thing, but whether it's early works of painters, books, comics, baseball cards or video games, these factors do matter and can greatly affect value.  I can't afford a $100k item and I'm definitely not setting on something that I think is.  That said, there are common market dynamics and saying a "first print" should have any special value just isn't true.

Edited February 26 by RH

[final fight cd | 187]

42 minutes ago, RH said:

See, I can't agree to that.  If this isn't something you care about, then I could see why you would think it's all hype.  But there are some of us who have paid fine attention to the details of things we're passionate about our whole lives and for those of us who really appreciate historical context, having an item that was part of a first release, of an important item is something that you value.

I didn't get my NES in my home until 1989.  But now that I collect and own things, if I had a chance to pick up a nice conditioned copy of SMB1 from that very first US run, I'd love to have it and I'd gladly display it on my shelf.  It'd be part of that original history of that very first batch of maybe 5-10k copies that were released in the US.  This was the end of the over-produced Atari-age and from that point on, for many of us, that was a significant shift in gaming.

This is why I think early copies do matter.  It's like getting a First edition vs. Second edition or even Third edition of a book.  Tell a serious Tolkien collector That having a first edition of The Fellowship "shouldn't be a thing" and they'd laugh it off because it's well understood that the earlier you get to the type of publication, the more important, and close, the items is to the origination of it's importance.

You may not be into that type of thing, but whether it's early works of paintings, books, comics, baseball cards or video games, these factors do matter and can greatly affect value.  I can't afford a $100k item and I'm definitely not setting on something that I think is.  That said, there are common market dynamics and saying a "first print" should have any special value just isn't true.

Before 2018 did you ever care about print runs or specially looked for first print games like Mario or Zelda?

I know I didn’t, but shit, now that it’s fully engrained into the video game collecting culture I can’t help but to know what a first print Mario and a first print Zelda look like, I don’t even collect NES. 

[CT | 99]

If earlier the print run the better, shouldn’t sealed collectors be clamoring for the real first print i.e. the Japanese releases?

[RH | 4,965]

36 minutes ago, final fight cd said:

Before 2018 did you ever care about print runs or specially looked for first print games like Mario or Zelda?

I know I didn’t, but shit, now that it’s fully engrained into the video game collecting culture I can’t help but to know what a first print Mario and a first print Zelda look like, I don’t even collect NES. 

Yes, actually, I did. I was nearing the end of my full Game Boy set.  I specifically started looking for first Rev carts and that sent me down that tangent of wanting first prints for games that were important to my childhood.  At that time, I had picked a few titles I wanted “first runs” of. SMB seemed like a pipe dream but I kept my eyes open but that never worked out (I’m also a condition snob) so I didn’t really bother to look into that one too much.  I did want a cherry, first rune SMB3 but I missed that boat too.

I admit, I was semi-unique but I know I wasn’t alone.  Another major problem I see with these current circumstances is when these players came in and hyped the market, it did what we see hear. It tainted the perspective of other collectors regarding those of us who care and want to collect based off of these factors.  I’m not some speculator-bro looking to get fat First Run SMB cause in 2050 it will be worth the price of a yacht. No, I like collecting rare “shinies” with a big focus on historical context and rarity.

I’m not alone but those specific qualities and characteristics is what the Wata-Bros capitalized on and now, those factors are “unimportant” because it’s associated with market hyping scumbags.