Game Debate #69: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Reed Rothchild | 9,523]

[Tanooki | 4,933]

I guess I start this with an unpopular post with my reasoning I'm sure will piss someone off.  Yeah I gave it a dead middle score.

I really don't get the appeal anymore on this brawler, yeah I didn't call it a fighting game, it's not, it's a multiplayer brawler of the likes of Capcom's Power Stone 2 and others.  The thing is, the game is limited, quite so with just a few specialized attacks per character, ok sized arenas, and a decent single and multiplayer arena setup but nothing to like lose your mind over.  Let's be honest, it is an average game, but what makes it exceptional to millions of people, it rests entirely with Nintendo franchises and the third parties who drop their two cents with it.

For anyone willing to rate this in a 8-10 range, clear your mind.  Now, imagine if this came out from Microsoft, and it was their allstars (which would roll up any of their second party mascots too) into the same engine, same stages/characters (with their coat of paint), odds are all the same third party pick ups too, the xbox network behind it which couples with PC as it's integrated in Windows 10/11. Would you still think this game is high tier perfection, or is this just childhood nostaglia with all the classic characters, stages, moves at play here?  Sony in the past and Shonen Jump magazine have done the same format with PS Allstars and Jump Superstars, the fans go nuts, they sell nothing remarkable but decent, and people move onto the next.  It's an average format pushed into greatness tier specifically due to Nintendo fans, that alone, not because it's a quality game.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

I've never played any of these games, but they seem fairly popular. I'd give it a try at least.

[Hammerfestus | 3,837]

I’ve only ever played the N64 Smash Bros.  That was fun.  

[MagusSmurf | 577]

8 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I guess I start this with an unpopular post with my reasoning I'm sure will piss someone off.  Yeah I gave it a dead middle score.

I really don't get the appeal anymore on this brawler, yeah I didn't call it a fighting game, it's not, it's a multiplayer brawler of the likes of Capcom's Power Stone 2 and others.  The thing is, the game is limited, quite so with just a few specialized attacks per character, ok sized arenas, and a decent single and multiplayer arena setup but nothing to like lose your mind over.  Let's be honest, it is an average game, but what makes it exceptional to millions of people, it rests entirely with Nintendo franchises and the third parties who drop their two cents with it.

For anyone willing to rate this in a 8-10 range, clear your mind.  Now, imagine if this came out from Microsoft, and it was their allstars (which would roll up any of their second party mascots too) into the same engine, same stages/characters (with their coat of paint), odds are all the same third party pick ups too, the xbox network behind it which couples with PC as it's integrated in Windows 10/11. Would you still think this game is high tier perfection, or is this just childhood nostaglia with all the classic characters, stages, moves at play here?  Sony in the past and Shonen Jump magazine have done the same format with PS Allstars and Jump Superstars, the fans go nuts, they sell nothing remarkable but decent, and people move onto the next.  It's an average format pushed into greatness tier specifically due to Nintendo fans, that alone, not because it's a quality game.

I’ve lost most interest in Smash myself so fine for not liking the game (haven’t played this one myself) but arguing Smash isn’t a fighting game? Seriously? I thought I was beyond the times but I’d sort of believe you’re actually time-travel posting from like 2009 or something.

And “with just a few specialized attacks per character?” I see. Confirmed for not having actually played the games.

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

Meh.  I prefer Boxing.

[rdrunner | 422]

Wow, so far 6 votes, all different.

Not voting yet.  I'm in the middle of my first playthrough and will know more later.

I will say that I'm really enjoying the game so far.  Unless something bad happens, it's at least an 8.

What I don't know is how I will end up comparing this to Melee (my only other version of Smash).  So far Melee has been the gold standard for the series, despite being only the second entry.  Time will tell if Ultimate can do what the other sequels couldn't.

Edited October 1, 2021 by rdrunner

[TDIRunner | 2,735]

I have never been able to get into any of the Smash Bros. games.  I've only played this one a few times because my kids absolutely love it and they want me to play it with them.  These types of games just aren't enjoyable for me.  

[croagunk | 798]

I give it 8/10. It’s a lot of fun, but can get repetitive after a while. Fighting games tire my hands quicker than other games.

[MegaMan52 | 2,445]

7/10

It is all right.

I like that Mega Man is in it, and think he should've been in the series since at least Brawl. Banjo and Kazooie being playable was a surprise and something I appreciate greatly. It's great that the game has a large selection of music, even including some music from Kirby Air Ride (which has a great soundtrack, so I guess I'm not too surprised that some of its music is included in Ultimate). As usual, Mega Man 2 gets the most respect and most of the Mega Man music is from that game, but I'm glad some music from Mega Man 4 and Mega Man 5 were included as well. Also, I really like that the sound effect of Mega Man shooting his charged shots is the one from Mega Man 5. However, all that being said, I think the game has a little too much content. I like that the game has a large variety of characters and stages, but there are several characters that I simply don't care about and a few of the stages just plain suck (not many, but a few). It's somewhat disappointing that the game has floaty physics like Brawl and the Joy-Cons really aren't that good of a Controller for this game, but at least the GameCube-style Switch Controllers give basically the same Controls and some of the same feeling as Melee. Playing online with random players occasionally isn't fun, because I've come across players who spam Lucas' PK Freeze and other players who disconnect when they are losing. I've had a lot of fun playing SSBU on game nights, however, even if it can sometimes be laggy.

Overall I like the first two Smash Bros. games the most, with Melee still being my favorite after all these years. The controls and physics in that game are near-perfect in my opinion, and the game has a lot of content without going overboard. Ultimate is still fun, though.

Edited October 1, 2021 by MegaMan52

[Kguillemette | 1,544]

9/10. I've had tons of fun playing this! Definitely the best version since Melee. Great balance and variety of fun characters to choose from. It took a while to customize the game (there are a ridiculous amount of settings and items to turn on and off) to get it to a point where I really enjoy it, as some items in the game are unfun for me and need to be turned off to enjoy. Certainly not a perfect fighter, but for a floaty jumping and slow moving slugfest, it get the job done very well. Plus I love the blast of nostalgia of having almost any character ever featured on a Nintendo console available to me from Toon Link, to Bowser, to Cloud, to Lloyd Irving. I can satisfy a nostalgic itch with a 10 minute play session.

[AstralSoul | 502]

Easily the best in the series. I've put almost 1000 hours into it which might actually be the most of any console game. For the most part I love the character selection, of course there will always be someone else I would want to get in though. I've played copycat smash bros type games and none of them are as polished and fun as ssbu. Even the older smash bros...going back they feel somewhat clunky. To be honest I didn't love this series until Ultimate. I played smash 64 and melee a lot with friends but I never truly loved the series til now. It's the only game where I can play competitively, not that I'm amazing at it but I think im pretty good and in general I'm not a competitive gamer. But this game makes me want to be competitive because it's so fun. 9/10

[Tanooki | 4,933]

On 10/1/2021 at 8:49 AM, MagusSmurf said:

I’ve lost most interest in Smash myself so fine for not liking the game (haven’t played this one myself) but arguing Smash isn’t a fighting game? Seriously? I thought I was beyond the times but I’d sort of believe you’re actually time-travel posting from like 2009 or something.

And “with just a few specialized attacks per character?” I see. Confirmed for not having actually played the games.

Yeah I'd argue it to death it's not.  If it's a fighting game, then so is Jump Super Stars, Playstation Allstars, Power STone 1 and 2, and any other arena brawler.  Might as well throw Final Fight 3 on SNES in as a fighting game too, and Streets of Rage 4, both those are area based brawlers that have basic input 'fighting commands.'  A real fighting game uses more complex motions, button combinations, and of that sort, though typically in a close 2D or 3D arena (SF2 vs like dead or alive.)

And yes, they do have a few specialized attacks, seriously?  There's no much thre other than using B or A for a light or smash attack, then comboing it with a direction to get a different effect.  It's like babies first fighter if you want to get snotty about it, the fighter for people who can't do charge attacks, quarter/half/full circles, and attacks needing more than one button to be used.

I've played the games and got less satisfied at a more and more rapid pace since the Wii one.  Gamecube was peak fun.  I'm just done wasting time on it anymore, remove the franchises it's mediocre.

[RH | 4,903]

Oops. I should have paid attention to which Smash this was. I didn't scroll down and assumed it was the GameCube one, since I'm generally not into this series, BUT I have wanted to pick up this version since it has so many characters, this is the latest in the series and I've not tried to play this game since the original.

[MagusSmurf | 577]

On 10/2/2021 at 8:58 PM, Tanooki said:

Yeah I'd argue it to death it's not.  If it's a fighting game, then so is Jump Super Stars, Playstation Allstars, Power STone 1 and 2, and any other arena brawler.  Might as well throw Final Fight 3 on SNES in as a fighting game too, and Streets of Rage 4, both those are area based brawlers that have basic input 'fighting commands.'  A real fighting game uses more complex motions, button combinations, and of that sort, though typically in a close 2D or 3D arena (SF2 vs like dead or alive.)

And yes, they do have a few specialized attacks, seriously?  There's no much thre other than using B or A for a light or smash attack, then comboing it with a direction to get a different effect.  It's like babies first fighter if you want to get snotty about it, the fighter for people who can't do charge attacks, quarter/half/full circles, and attacks needing more than one button to be used.

I've played the games and got less satisfied at a more and more rapid pace since the Wii one.  Gamecube was peak fun.  I'm just done wasting time on it anymore, remove the franchises it's mediocre.

If you want to argue it’s not a good fighting game then fine, whatever!

but “Smash is not a fighting game” is just a dumb dated argument from years way back that basically nobody seriously holds anymore. That ship has sailed. Might as well argue Pokemon is not an RPG while you’re at it.

[Brickman | 3,983]

2 hours ago, MagusSmurf said:

If you want to argue it’s not a good fighting game then fine, whatever!

but “Smash is not a fighting game” is just a dumb dated argument from years way back that basically nobody seriously holds anymore. That ship has sailed. Might as well argue Pokemon is not an RPG while you’re at it.

It’s at EVO, if that’s not proof enough Smash is a fighting game then what else does it take?

Smash is 100% a fighting game and even shares common things with the fighters that all the deniers talk about.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 585]

#69

 

[mbd39 | 2,020]

On 10/1/2021 at 4:58 AM, Bearcat-Doug said:

I've never played any of these games, but they seem fairly popular. I'd give it a try at least.

Me neither. Glad I'm not the only one.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 585]

On 10/2/2021 at 9:58 PM, Tanooki said:

Yeah I'd argue it to death it's not.  If it's a fighting game, then so is Jump Super Stars, Playstation Allstars, Power STone 1 and 2, and any other arena brawler.  Might as well throw Final Fight 3 on SNES in as a fighting game too, and Streets of Rage 4, both those are area based brawlers that have basic input 'fighting commands.'  A real fighting game uses more complex motions, button combinations, and of that sort, though typically in a close 2D or 3D arena (SF2 vs like dead or alive.)

I wrote in another thread that I could never get into the Smash series. It really doesn't do it for me. Had some shallow fun with it on the N64 which I think was the dev's intention but that's about it. The original is not even in my top 25 N64 games.

 

But it is definitely a fighting game. How can it not be included in the fighting genre? All there is to do is have your character fight other characters in fighting matches. Fighting.

 

And to address the quote:  I would say that all the games that borrowed from Smash are fighting games. And so is Power Stone, but that one has 3D movement, the same way Soul Calibur is a fighting game even if it's 3D and the player can move around in the stage. Wrestling games are fighting games also. 

Complex move sets? Not a requirement. Divekick is a fighting game.

Final Fight??? Ye of bad faith! Beat 'em ups are a genre where you fight all your opponents in waves as you progress through the environment, following a story and don't really feature one-on-one matches in fixed arenas. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by WhyNotZoidberg

[Reed Rothchild | 9,523]

This is my kids' new obsession.

Their favorite character?

"Peppa-Rah"

[Webhead123 | 675]

While I generally consider the Smash Bros. series to be just disposable, goofy entertainment as far as my interest goes, for what it does, it's undeniably accessible and nuanced at the same time. It isn't a perfect package by any means but with an abso-friggin-lutely gigantic roster of characters, plus the ability to create your own fighters, it's hard to argue that it isn't deserving of its popularity.

I haven't played Ultimate in a while but that's just because my kids have gotten old enough that they don't often want to stoop to playing games with dad, and Smash isn't the kind of game I'm all that interested in playing against randoms. But I've put my share of hours into it and don't regret any of them.

8.5 out of 10

[OptOut | 8,883]

I was pretty big on the original Smash Bros and especially Melee back in the day! Never really got into the games again since then though, it's sort of the same thing over and over, and I'm not that big into fighting games anyway. Plus, my college dorm room Smash tournament days are LONG behind me, so I would say there's little left for me to actually do with the games now.

I know they are good games, but not for me.

4 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

This is my kids' new obsession.

 This is the truth right here, my kids love it! 

[themisfit138 | 523]

8/10. It is just as good as Melee.