Heritage Auctions Thread

[Brickman | 3,987]

So much talk of suing here. I know it’s the US’s favourite sport but calm down.

All his stuff is linked to public evidence. Deniz said those statements Karl didn’t make them up, they were on the website. Same goes with the Jim stuff.

In light of Dain’s comment Karl should do an amendment though and probably will.

If anyone sues I wish them well in Australian court, this will be over quicker than Karl’s speed runs.

[inasuma | 1,203]

3 minutes ago, Shmup said:

Deniz said those statements Karl didn’t make them up

oh did he hop on an interview in the last couple days? 

[Brickman | 3,987]

2 minutes ago, inasuma said:

oh did he hop on an interview in the last couple days? 

I’m talking about how Deniz said employees don’t grade their own games.

[inasuma | 1,203]

3 hours ago, Gulag Joe said:

"Building a bubble" is market manipulation. Market manipulation is a crime. A whole bunch of people got in trouble a few years back by breaking the law by building a bubble that caused the entire world to go into a recession. 2008 wasn't that long ago.

still waiting for all those wall street market manipulators to go to prison and regulatory reform to protect our sacred economy.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

1 hour ago, Ozzy_98 said:

I'm not taking sides, and I dislike how people seem to have teams; once you pick a team, you stop listening to the other side generally, and over-inflate small bits of info to make your team seem better. That said, a bit of info here.

For it to qualify as legal slander in the US, it would need to be spoken, since this was broadcast, it would be libel. Libel would be very tough to get when the one saying the comments is in another country, he would just about have to show up in America to be served. (And didn't Heritage say on twitter he should contact them, and come view the site?)

What, exactly, was untrue that he said? Speculation is not libel, old SEC filings that never amounted to anything wouldn't qualify. 

And then there's the argument, does Heritage qualify as a public figure, and if so, that would mean in US law actual malice needs to be shown. Actual malice in this case means 1) knowing the statements are false, or 2) reckless disregard for the truth. These are VERY hard to prove.

I think Australia follows UKs MUCH stricter libel laws, so if they had a registered business there, they would have a much better case.

Unless something he said was plainly false, and he doesn't correct it, I don't see how he could have been considered libel, *EXCEPT* his intro and thumbnail are crossing a line in my eyes. If you skip past the first 5 or so mins, it's better. But meh, he's always been a drama queen.  

And yes, I still talk this way.  And yes, most people here will assume things about my post and assume I'm on one side or the other, and I fully know no one would ever bother asking me to explain what I mean if they misread it.  And no, I'm not staying long, I actually swung by for reasons OTHER than this drama  Also, <insert generic penis joke here>

 

 

 

You are correct, it’s a logistical nightmare with a lot of hurdles. On top of that, you have insane legal expenses and gotta prove damages. Not worth it unless you have FU money to burn and want to make a point.

I thought Slander would apply since he spoke them on a medium, but I am not sure of it at all. I would assume you are correct.

But he left open to interpretation and arguably suggested that Dain was associated with WATA in 2019, when his then-former games were graded, which is demonstrably false and such info was readily available. He should correct it for numerous reasons.  

Edited August 26, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

6 hours ago, MiamiSlice said:

I hate to be pedantic but there's a lot wrong here. 

1. Market manipulation is only a crime in regulated markets. It specifically concerns securities (like stocks). Collectibles are not regulated, neither are precious metals. You can try to manipulate the gold, crypto or collectibles markets all you want, you will not be breaking the law by doing so. 

2. The 2008 crime you are referring to is fraud, specifically mortgage fraud, not market manipulation. It was all laid out in The Big Short. People were straight up lying about the value and risk of the mortgages that they were bundling. Regulators were turning a blind eye to it while it was happening. The bubble burst when the holders of those mortgage bonds realized their investments were much riskier (more junk) thank they were initially led to believe. 

3. Hardly anyone went to jail for what happened in 2008. Pretty sure it was like 1 person at 1 firm. 

To date the only possible crime that Wata / HA might have committed is false advertising, and even that is very specious and would be very difficult to prove. Anything else that people are alleging due to Karl's video and the rumors is either a) not a crime or b) not credible based on the

Edited August 27, 2021 by WalterWhiteJr.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

So basically we can turn the conversation away from "Is what they are doing legal" to "is what they are doing incredibly shitty?" which, that basically has been the conversation all along (edit: I mean for years before this video came out) . And if you don't think what they are doing is incredibly shitty, how many graded games do you own/ have you sold?

Edited August 26, 2021 by CodysGameRoom
added context

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

1 hour ago, osg said:

The other side of the coin is I don't think Karl Jobst has to worry about being successfully sued by anyone mentioned in the video. He might get served by someone anyway though! That's just how legal teams do.

Just to add that Karl has, in the past, done corrections videos and even corrects small details, so he might do the same here if things are brought to his attention.

Karl has Notch of all people paying his lawyer's bills for a BS suit against him, so a lawsuit would be like a years worth of Wata content for him probably. I mean, I'd sure rather him do a follow up though.

[Ozzy_98 | 55]

41 minutes ago, MiamiSlice said:

Quick googling brought me to this: https://gordonlegal.com.au/services/defamation-privacy-law/defamation-law-in-australia-a-quick-guide/

Looks like if Karl is in Australia then Heritage / Wata would have to sue him in Australian court.... It's very hard for companies to claim defamation... They could sue for malicious falsehood but pretty much impossible to claim Karl is being malicious and that it will hurt their business... They'd have a much better chance of suing as individuals since Karl named specific people in the video... Who knows, maybe Deniz or someone else will sue him. It could happen. 

My limited understanding is they can sue 1) where the company is registered (which counts as where they live) and 2) where the libel was said and\or broadcast. or, 1 & 2 can be ignored if the laws permit suits by non-residents for tort laws. Since it was broadcast worldwide, they just need a legal presence if Australia doesn't allow anyone to make tort cases. That link makes it sound like Australia does not follow UK laws (Or my info on UK laws is outdated; I work for a multinational french company and some of the training they make us do isn't "fresh")

All that said, defamation is special because why the fuck not. There's something called Libel tourism where basically, you sue in the best place to win, AKA UK. Because of that crud, US passed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEECH_Act this thing, and other countries followed suit with their own versions. 

Now, a suit doesn't have to be properly done to be filed, you can sue anyone for any reason, it's when the court gets the lawsuit it gets thrown out. And with the way you have to be served, I wouldn't trust getting near that company for a while if I was him, unless he gets a stack of special papers.  

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

17 hours ago, MiamiSlice said:

Boo hoo. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to buy beanie babies. 

...

Apparently some people are evil if they hype their investment to make that speculation work.

Thanks for giving me a solid heads up on another person to not do any sort of business with based on their personal ethics. 

15 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

...And as for the topic: Hey you guys! We already knew all this shit for 2+ years; why is it suddenly such a revelation now?!?

Not everybody had an idea about what was going on, and please feel free to link specific examples if I'm wrong, but I doubt that the relative few number of folks on here that previously cared deeply about this sort of thing provided all of the specific nitty gritty details that were clearly outlined in the Karl Jobst video (or at least not in any sort of concise, compiled, easy to read/reference sort of way).  For people discussing this for literal years and making all sorts of notes, sure, a lot of these ideas might be absolutely old hat, but I have yet to see anyone chiming in saying that they gleaned nothing from the video, and I have a feeling a lot of it was the hard evidence that was brought to bear in the video of things that people had likely been theorizing about in discussions over time.

8 hours ago, jonebone said:

With that example, no more than a case evolution.  Excitebike was graded 10/1/19 and these new mold red copies are graded July 21.  I'm assuming that after the huge lot of moldy games was on eBay this Spring, Wata realized that these really needed to be tagged somehow if poeple are going to get in the business of grading moldy games.  Any collector knows that is quite possibly the most extreme and severe flaw possible for a sealed game and not really desirable.

If anything that bolsters the argument that Wata is trying to protect their buyer base instead of put one past them.

Seriously?  Look at how companies have done things for basically centuries now, and when has concern for the customer ever been the first consideration when doing something?  Sure, that would be a convenient and welcome result, but realistically, I'm putting all the chips behind them covering their own asses in regard to the potential for public health issues, failure to disclose, etc., the same sort of shit that realtors get in trouble for when not putting forth every detail about a property they're trying to sell to someone.  The effect/benefit of the red badges is twofold, but the smart money is behind self preservation and/or self interest as the primary motivator.

6 hours ago, kell said:

And yes, board members usually are not employees.

While technically correct (the best kind of correct!), they do, after all, steer and generally control the company.  So saying that someone "only" being a board member leaves them blameless for the direction the company takes would ring untrue to me.

4 hours ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Edit: I'm really curious how many of those super critical of this video haven't actually watched the whole thing.

I'm willing to say most, as there's only one post where somebody (AdamW, I believe, and thank you for that, man) says they actually went and specifically/finally watched the entire thing.  I know there's at least one, if not a couple, of folks participating who stated that they don't and basically refuse to watch videos (on YouTube), which would normally seem to preclude them from entering the discussion, but here we are, nonetheless.

4 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I've known Dain a LONG time...since when NA was just a nugget of an idea and not an actual thing.  And the Dain I know would never knowingly associate with anything even remotely close to this shady.  And yeah, he was pretty much done with the scene for years before he finally sold off.  His collection was his to sell for whatever he got, and while I wish NA had gone to someone who would've kept it going, I don't begrudge him for selling it off as well, and while I like to think that he would've preferred it didn't die such an ignoble death, after selling it that would be completely out of his hands.

While the video didn't infer anything in regard to Dain's participation, motive, etc., in what seems to clearly be shown as shenanigans later on down the line, the way I took it was that Dain initially joined up, probably saw the way things were looking to be handled (aiming for straight up market manipulation to stuff everybody's pockets) and got out on the ground floor so he wouldn't be tied up in that nonsense.  He could have decided it just wasn't for him, etc., who knows, but he did join up for long enough to be included on their SEC filing before changing his mind for whatever reason and dropping out.  Honestly looks like he dodged a bullet.

4 hours ago, ExplodedHamster said:

He said he didn’t join WATA at the end of his message, though he could have been a bit more clear overall. I read that as he initially decided he would participate, paperwork was filed, he changed his mind and never worked for or with WATA, and then the paperwork was amended to reflect that.

Well, he did, however briefly.  I'm pretty sure they'd have had to have sent in an amendment removing him versus a new filing if they just arbitrarily added his name to the filing and he reached out to them to go, "Hey, no, I never agreed to that."  Pretty sure that filing papers with the Federal Government stating one thing as a fact, then another thing as a fact (Dain was a member of their board, then he wasn't) versus correcting a mistake (stating Dain was a member of their board, then filing an amendment saying that was a mistake) is a crime (albeit an extremely low level one).

3 hours ago, Gulag Joe said:

Gulag Joe was or is the owner of Cody's Game Room.

See, now you're not even trying to make sense.  There's got to be SOME iota of truth in your statement in order for it to hold up, even as a ridiculous example.

3 hours ago, OptOut said:

Wow, I can feel the ROI increasing on your sealed PS3 games as we speak! 

Those games were or are sealed, please bid high, and often, no returns! 

3 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Do you live in a different timeline?  Almost nobody got in trouble for 2008...

Plenty of people got in trouble for 2008...all the poor bastards left holding mortgages that were incredibly upside down!  How many of those folks had a suit and tie, however...

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

For people throwing out the word libel… what was actually falsely said?

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

Also… Karl’s video is up to 637k views. Getting close to that million mark!

[Ozzy_98 | 55]

10 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

So basically we can turn the conversation away from "Is what they are doing legal" to "is what they are doing incredibly shitty?" which, that basically has been the conversation all along (edit: I mean for years before this video came out) . And if you don't think what they are doing is incredibly shitty, how many graded games do you own/ have you sold?

I don't think they did anything against any laws, unless you want to try RICO which doesn't really count. But they may be breaking some regulations which will amount to the same thing. Just a ton harder for normal people to find what regulation say.

 

[Ozzy_98 | 55]

3 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

For people throwing out the word libel… what was actually falsely said?

I watched it part way through a second time (And I dislike this crud), but I didn't hear him say anything up till the 35ish mark that could be false. Even the SEC filings portion he mentioned "At the time" and I think "once listed".  And the shill bidding part was hearsay, and he said "if it was true". 

That said, the thumbnail was a bit ballsy. 

 

 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,162]

2 minutes ago, Ozzy_98 said:

I watched it part way through a second time (And I dislike this crud), but I didn't hear him say anything up till the 35ish mark that could be false. Even the SEC filings portion he mentioned "At the time" and I think "once listed".  And the shill bidding part was hearsay, and he said "if it was true". 

That said, the thumbnail was a bit ballsy. 

 

 

Gotcha. I’m going to guess that there’s really nothing in the video that rises to the level necessary to prevail on a libel claim. Nor do I think someone like Dain is going to pursue. What would his damages be? He’s not wata. It’s different. I don’t specialize in this area of law (i do private equity and venture capital), but I would think that if any claim came forth, it would be from wata. I’ve also heard that it doesn’t take much for them to start sending out cease and desists like it’s going out of style. 

[Brickman | 3,987]

20 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

So basically we can turn the conversation away from "Is what they are doing legal" to "is what they are doing incredibly shitty?" which, that basically has been the conversation all along (edit: I mean for years before this video came out) . And if you don't think what they are doing is incredibly shitty, how many graded games do you own/ have you sold?

Yep pretty much what I’ve been trying to say from the start. I personally don’t think anything in the form of charges will come to HA/WATA/Deniz but hopefully now people can see what they’re doing is really shitty and unethical. If the best outcome from this video is that people now have doubt about WATA & HA and look at other graders that would be a great outcome.

I also have to agree with darkchylde28, not everyone knew all the details in this video. Great work if you’re one of the ones that did but I certainly didn’t and I found it a great way to backup what a lot of doubters have been posting here before the video.

If evidences comes out that everything is all aboveboard then I’ll graciously admit Karl was wrong.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

4 minutes ago, Shmup said:

If evidences comes out that everything is all aboveboard then I’ll graciously admit Karl was wrong.

Pretty sure the issue of Deniz appearing on Pawn Stars to offer a value statement and the issues that raises shoots that conclusion all to hell, lol.

[AdamW | 713]

24 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

For people throwing out the word libel… what was actually falsely said?

I mentioned a couple minor inaccuracies in my long post, but I doubt any of those would merit a libel claim. Even under US law, let alone anywhere else.

[Ozzy_98 | 55]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Thanks for actually watching the video. I know you said your position is unchanged and that's fine but at least you're qualified to comment on the contents of the video. I agree with most of your assessment as well.

Sounds like more than a few people are not watching it from what you've said. Here's the transcript https://pastebin.com/d6iZNsiq 

[kell | 102]

5 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

While technically correct (the best kind of correct!), they do, after all, steer and generally control the company.  So saying that someone "only" being a board member leaves them blameless for the direction the company takes would ring untrue to me.

I'm trying to get out of this topic, don't drag me back in lol

It does, however, make his point of WATA breaking its policy moot.

I do agree with you, which is why I also stated earlier:  While it may be legal, it can ruin reputations and creditability (the newspaper test).

When your business is based on being an unbiased and creditable source you have to go above and beyond to build and maintain that reputation. Not doing anything illegal is not enough. If there is an appearance of any bias or wrongdoing you put that reputation, and your business, in jeopardy.

Edited August 27, 2021 by kell

[Gulag Joe | 582]

Don't know if any of you have been paying any attention, but factory sealed VHS tapes from the 80s and 90s are exploding in price right now. I wonder if it's Dirty Wata and the Boys messing around with that market, too.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

45 minutes ago, Ozzy_98 said:

I don't think they did anything against any laws, unless you want to try RICO which doesn't really count. But they may be breaking some regulations which will amount to the same thing. Just a ton harder for normal people to find what regulation say.

 

Curious which parts, specifically, you think would break regulations? Investors can utilize the service, provided they aren’t on the floor grading or overseeing it, I’d think. The Pawn Stars thing I highly doubt breaks any regulations, no matter one’s opinion. Board members participating and promoting their businesses in conjunction with another company is pretty standard stuff. 

I suppose it’s difficult if we can’t find the regulations lol.

But put it this way: We know live in a world where one parent company owns two of the biggest grading companies in the world (PSA and WATA), and one of the biggest auction companies in the world (Goldin). How strict can these things be?

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

7 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

Don't know if any of you have been paying any attention, but factory sealed VHS tapes from the 80s and 90s are exploding in price right now. I wonder if it's Dirty Wata and the Boys messing around with that market, too.

Oh God, talk about a suspect grading company (IGS)…

[GPX | 1,370]

1 hour ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

Also… Karl’s video is up to 637k views. Getting close to that million mark!

He’d go as low as....1 million views!

[Jeevan | 8,911]

22 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

Don't know if any of you have been paying any attention, but factory sealed VHS tapes from the 80s and 90s are exploding in price right now. I wonder if it's Dirty Wata and the Boys messing around with that market, too.

Yes, since they are in the same "parent" company now   

Gottim' bois!!!!!!!   Where my @OptOut at?