Wata - A year and a half after

[MrMark0673 | 197]

https://sec.report/Document/0001711064-17-000001/

So Dain was an executive too?  Man, that's so weird.  Weren't we told in no uncertain terms that WATA, Jeff, Gocollect, and Dain were unrelated entities?

Edit to be absolutely crystal clear:

• When the "Carolina Collection" was being graded, either Dain, Jeff, or both, had a financial interest in WATA Inc.  
• When NA was sold, it was between two current or former members of WATA Inc.

Is this a post of emotion, speculation, or objective truth?  Previously I had stated that WATA isn't simply Deniz and Kenneth, and I was met with some pretty serious pushback.

Not conspiracy theory, not blind jealously, not creating connections or conclusions that don't exist, just pointing out the blatantly obvious.

Edited November 8, 2019 by MrMark0673

[Sign Collector Guy | 334]

Just the voter turnout on this poll is a great metric that reflects how engaging this site has become so quickly. Awesome stuff.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Sign Collector Guy
Playing with fonts. :-)

[Pats1717 | 62]

37 minutes ago, MrMark0673 said:

https://sec.report/Document/0001711064-17-000001/

So Dain was an executive too?  Man, that's so weird.  Weren't we told in no uncertain terms that WATA, Jeff, Gocollect, and Dain were unrelated entities?

Edit to be absolutely crystal clear:

• When the "Carolina Collection" was being graded, either Dain, Jeff, or both, had a financial interest in WATA Inc.  
• When NA was sold, it was between two current or former members of WATA Inc.

Is this a post of emotion, speculation, or objective truth?  Previously I had stated that WATA isn't simply Deniz and Kenneth, and I was met with some pretty serious pushback.

Not conspiracy theory, not blind jealously, not creating connections or conclusions that don't exist, just pointing out the blatantly obvious.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

[Sign Collector Guy | 334]

1 minute ago, Pats1717 said:

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

Wata was initially 1 up Grading company as you can see by prior filings,  but it from I know there was a falling out. Obviously. 

[Sign Collector Guy | 334]

41 minutes ago, MrMark0673 said:

https://sec.report/Document/0001711064-17-000001/

So Dain was an executive too?  Man, that's so weird.  Weren't we told in no uncertain terms that WATA, Jeff, Gocollect, and Dain were unrelated entities?

Edit to be absolutely crystal clear:

• When the "Carolina Collection" was being graded, either Dain, Jeff, or both, had a financial interest in WATA Inc.  
• When NA was sold, it was between two current or former members of WATA Inc.

Is this a post of emotion, speculation, or objective truth?  Previously I had stated that WATA isn't simply Deniz and Kenneth, and I was met with some pretty serious pushback.

Not conspiracy theory, not blind jealously, not creating connections or conclusions that don't exist, just pointing out the blatantly obvious.

Meant to quote this one.   Wata was initially 1 up Grading company as you can see by prior filings,  but it from I know there was a falling out. Obviously. 

[Pats1717 | 62]

1 minute ago, Sign Collector Guy said:

Meant to quote this one.   Wata was initially 1 up Grading company as you can see by prior filings,  but it from I know there was a falling out. Obviously. 

I was a little confused thanks

[MrMark0673 | 197]

4 minutes ago, Sign Collector Guy said:

Meant to quote this one.   Wata was initially 1 up Grading company as you can see by prior filings,  but it from I know there was a falling out. Obviously. 

The former name is mentioned in both of the SEC forms, so no secret there.  It has no bearing on any of the information I posted though, in any capacity.

Edit to add:  I see no "obvious" falling out, I see a transaction of financial stake.  Can happen for numerous reasons and I don't look to speculate on that.  Just wanted to point out the hard facts of the connections between all of the parties mentioned previously as well as their associated companies.

Edited November 8, 2019 by MrMark0673

[Sign Collector Guy | 334]

1 minute ago, MrMark0673 said:

The former name is mentioned in both of the SEC forms, so no secret there.  It has no bearing on any of the information I posted though, in any capacity.

I get yah. Sorry. One thing I am pretty certain about (99.999%) is nobody from Wata will ever speak on any of this. So it is all up to our interpretation. One thing I do know for sure is we aren't stupid.  It is what is and I really don't have any strong emotions over it. I just find the topic interesting to discuss. 

[MrMark0673 | 197]

4 minutes ago, Sign Collector Guy said:

I get yah. Sorry. One thing I am pretty certain about (99.999%) is nobody from Wata will ever speak on any of this. 

I would say that plenty of people from WATA have already spoken about it, but opinions on that will vary.

4 minutes ago, Sign Collector Guy said:

So it is all up to our interpretation.

Nothing I posted with the SEC form D link is open to interpretation.  I made definite, factual observations based on the legal documents.

Either Dain, Jeff, or both had a formal financial interest in WATA Inc when the "Carolina Collection" was being graded.  That set of games was later (and is currently) being sold, for profit, by a formal member of WATA Inc and that person has a specific financial stake in that company.

If people don't see that as a conflict of interest, I can wager to guess why.  If anyone would like to prove that anything I posted in the underlined above is definitively untrue, I'll edit my post with a correction.

4 minutes ago, Sign Collector Guy said:

One thing I do know for sure is we aren't stupid.  

Agreed.

Edited November 8, 2019 by MrMark0673

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

The thing that I find funny about the SEC filing shenanigans, is that my understanding of the regulations would be that they never even needed to file in the first place.  (few enough shareholders and low enough revenue)

Seems like they lifted their skirt for no discernible reason.

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by arch_8ngel

[tbone3969 | 308]

11 hours ago, Br81zad said:

That's public record technically. 

(You can bet your sweet ass this would be censored on some OTHER video game forum...)

Thank you videogamesage

[Pats1717 | 62]

1 hour ago, arch_8ngel said:

The thing that I find funny about the SEC filing shenanigans, is that my understanding of the regulations would be that they never even needed to file in the first place.  (few enough shareholders and low enough revenue)

Seems like they lifted their skirt for no discernible reason.

 

No kidding but it could be bad advice from their attorney or let’s cover all the bases because who is ever gonna look it up 

[Sign Collector Guy | 334]

I am just waiting for the next "Article" to drop........................Puff piece.  

[Bronty | 187]

Interesting and news to me.    You know, I used to feel the same way as you guys about stuff like this because the same relationships exist in comics, ie, the auction house principals own at least a chunk of the grading company and they are perfectly on record and transparent about that.

At this point in time, I could care less.   I've never seen anything but professional conduct.    I don't always agree with the decisions, but I've never seen anything shady in the least, and the existence of those relationships has never affected my bidding.

I doubt it will affect the bidding of anyone here either.

That's all for now.   Too much shit to do today.

[Hammerfestus | 3,897]

Well, now you know why the community wasn’t given the chance to buy NA.  

Also, lol @ rich guys are too busy to commit white collar crime.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Hammerfestus

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

41 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Interesting and news to me.    You know, I used to feel the same way as you guys about stuff like this because the same relationships exist in comics, ie, the auction house principals own at least a chunk of the grading company and they are perfectly on record and transparent about that.

 

The SEC filing issue above is a bit different than that, though, because here we're potentially talking about a guy having a pre-existing stake in the grading company going on to have his own very large collection not just graded but NAMED as a "special" collection of some sort.

Edited November 8, 2019 by arch_8ngel

[MinusWorlds | 193]

37 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

 

The SEC filing issue above is a bit different than that, though, because here we're potentially talking about a guy having a pre-existing stake in the grading company going on to have his own very large collection not just graded but NAMED as a "special" collection of some sort.

I’ll repeat this before asking my question, I’m not a fan of pedigrees. 

Assuming the above is true tho...What is the potential conflict in that scenario? I’m not being purposely obtuse. I’m asking a legitimate question. 

It’s not as if Jeff gets an automatic uptick in price because he has a pedigreed collection for sale. Most buyers don’t care about pedigree, and those that do most likely feel as though Dain’s collection is deservant of a pedigree anyway. I personally am 50/50 on if it does deserve one, and certainly wouldn’t pay a premium.

By nature a small hobby such as ours is going to be incestious. It is what it is. At the end of the day you still need buyers. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything here. Nobody. The puff pieces are old, tired, and nauseating at this point, agreed.

What would everyone propose? Wata issuing a statement, saying what precisely? That Jeff is a Director, that he does have a pedigreed collection, that his games were graded honestly and without bias (I firmly believe there was no bias in grading)? Even if they did that people would still be claiming they are destroying the hobby. What precisely does that accomplish? People will never accept it as fact.

I’m seriously interested to hear what the ramifications and potential conflicts are here. People everyday promote their products and invest in them at the same time. It’s business. Are you upset that our hobby is operating more like a business now? If so, I’m right there with you, but I’m not ready to hang anyone or file complaints with the SEC or whatever the end game is here.

 

 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

57 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

 

The SEC filing issue above is a bit different than that, though, because here we're potentially talking about a guy having a pre-existing stake in the grading company going on to have his own very large collection not just graded but NAMED as a "special" collection of some sort.

Eh, the named part is perfectly justifiable because the collection objectively is worthy of a pedigree. If anyone else had bought it, it would similarly have gotten a pedigree based on its own standing.

I understand not liking collections pedigreed, but in a world where they exist in comic collecting and now video game collecting, it’s entirely legitimate that Dain’s collection would get one. There are at least two others out there for video games, so it’s not like this is a first for WATA, either.

Ha, nice timing MW!

Edited November 8, 2019 by ExplodedHamster

[OptOut | 8,892]

Wooooooooo wheeee!

Man, just when I thought this thread was running out of steam, BAM with the stone cold revelation from MrMark!

I kept relatively quiet on my feelings about this whole pump and dump scam issue for many months after the NA buyout, sharing my suspicions only privately with a few of my close friends. It was only at the end there on NA when the sky was falling I just let loose because why not at that point.

But, it was obvious really to anyone who was paying attention that the whole situation relating to the blowout sale prices of sealed games and the WATA/HA/GoCollect racket was all just hyped up bluster and bullshit from a bunch of interested parties and their noobish rube victims who can't tell a videogame from their arsehole.

I must say I am glad we finally know the truth about where that smell was coming from, and I admit I was wrong about one thing... It wasn't the bigshot farts after all, it was the fishy business going on right in front of us all in broad fucking daylight.

Thank you to MrMark and others brave enough to keep speaking out and keep digging, even when some big dogs barking tried to drown you out. Thank you.

Only sad thing is, it's probably too late to avert the new collecting "hobby". Enough rich fucking idiots have already spent enough money to attract other idiots to join them in the money pit. My advice at this point would be to sell while the getting's good if you can, and then step back and watch all them fuckers drown, before chuckling to yourself and then going back to playing Nintendo.

Now, if you'll excuse me, time for a popcorn refill and another beer, this thread is amazing! 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

3 hours ago, MrMark0673 said:

Nothing I posted with the SEC form D link is open to interpretation.  I made definite, factual observations based on the legal documents.

Either Dain, Jeff, or both had a formal financial interest in WATA Inc when the "Carolina Collection" was being graded.  That set of games was later (and is currently) being sold, for profit, by a formal member of WATA Inc and that person has a specific financial stake in that company.

If people don't see that as a conflict of interest, I can wager to guess why.  If anyone would like to prove that anything I posted in the underlined above is definitively untrue, I'll edit my post with a correction.

It’s only objectively a problem if you can establish Deniz and Kenneth are “fixing” grades on the games to benefit them. This also, again, gets back to the inherent issue with grading companies and perceived conflict of interest. In every other business, people can invest in a company and use their products, and nobody bats an eye. It’s very difficult, if not impossible, to avoid a perception of bias where subjective grading of items is concerned and money is flying around.

So I think we’re right back to whether you trust Deniz and Kenneth to act ethically in their grading. All the other relationships are standard business relationships - investors partnering up, promoting one another, etc. Deniz, btw, is refusing to sell any of his games, even raw, because he thinks it would be unethical. I completely disagree with him where raw games are concerned, but I think that shows the kind of effort he’s putting in here to stay within bounds. I don’t think someone going to those extremes is risking his reputation and livelihood to rig grades. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by ExplodedHamster

[MinusWorlds | 193]

3 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Wooooooooo wheeee!

Man, just when I thought this thread was running out of steam, BAM with the stone cold revelation from MrMark!

I kept relatively quiet on my feelings about this whole pump and dump scam issue for many months after the NA buyout, sharing my suspicions only privately with a few of my close friends. It was only at the end there on NA when the sky was falling I just let loose because why not at that point.

But, it was obvious really to anyone who was paying attention that the whole situation relating to the blowout sale prices of sealed games and the WATA/HA/GoCollect racket was all just hyped up bluster and bullshit from a bunch of interested parties and their noobish rube victims who can't tell a videogame from their arsehole.

I must say I am glad we finally know the truth about where that smell was coming from, and I admit I was wrong about one thing... It wasn't the bigshot farts after all, it was the fishy business going on right in front of us all in broad fucking daylight.

Thank you to MrMark and others brave enough to keep speaking out and keep digging, even when some big dogs barking tried to drown you out. Thank you.

Only sad thing is, it's probably too late to avert the new collecting "hobby". Enough rich fucking idiots have already spent enough money to attract other idiots to join them in the money pit. My advice at this point would be to sell while the getting's good if you can, and then step back and watch all them fuckers drown, before chuckling to yourself and then going back to playing Nintendo.

Now, if you'll excuse me, time for a popcorn refill and another beer, this thread is amazing! 

The rich stay rich man. None of the new buyers are going to skip a beat if the video game market does crash. People throwing tens of thousands of dollars at games don’t worry about losing that money. 8 years ago everyone was calling one buyer an idiot for what he was spending, and guess what? If he sold today he’d make money. And I can tell you with certainty, what his games are worth doesn’t keep him up at night. He has f you money, as do the majority of the new investors, errr I mean collectors. 

We don’t have to like it, but that is the truth.

 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

15 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Eh, the named part is perfectly justifiable because the collection objectively is worthy of a pedigree. If anyone else had bought it, it would similarly have gotten a pedigree based on its own standing.

I understand not liking collections pedigreed, but in a world where they exist in comic collecting and now video game collecting, it’s entirely legitimate that Dain’s collection would get one. There are at least two others out there for video games, so it’s not like this is a first for WATA, either.

Ha, nice timing MW!

No offense to Dain, but his collection is no more worthy of a special title than any other large collection.

There is nothing inherently special about it just because he owned it.

And as far as I am aware, it isn't the most complete, or the first-to-complete for any specific system is it?

 

That said, I don't take issue with the pedigree concept, in general.

But I think it makes for an interesting ethics footnote when looked at in this case, where a "director" of the grading company gets their own large collection that they bought wholesale labeled with a pedigree.

Simply put, it looks bad from the outside in a way that discredits the perception of the  grading company's objectivity.

Whether it actually damages the objectivity is unknowable, but the Wata supporters in this thread seem way too quick to wave away the concerns as an "everyone is doing it", which when it comes to these kinds of things is a bad argument to make, IMO.

[fcgamer | 4,761]

I'm going to go against the grain here by saying that I like pedigrees, at least somewhat. The concept can make it much easier to legitimise an item / the quality of an item. I've discussed it quite a bit with @OptOut, when describing my finds, so he immediately has an idea if it was pulled quite literally from a dumpster or from a storehouse along the coast.

With that being said, I also feel that the whole situation from Dain's final actions with NA, this revelation, etc tarnish this legacy. I'd personally even take a step further and choose VGA over Wata, if I had an option, just due to the whole scenario. It's one thing to move on and to cash out, but the way Dain handled things was horrible, at best, and then when we see such an incestous situation, it just makes me look negatively on the situation even more.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

4 minutes ago, MinusWorlds said:

The rich stay rich man. None of the new buyers are going to skip a beat if the video game market does crash. People throwing tens of thousands of dollars at games don’t worry about losing that money. 8 years ago everyone was calling one buyer an idiot for what he was spending, and guess what? If he sold today he’d make money. And I can tell you with certainty, what his games are worth doesn’t keep him up at night. He has f you money, as do the majority of the new investors, errr I mean collectors. 

We don’t have to like it, but that is the truth.

 

 

Yes, I think a lot of it just comes down to people not liking the idea of the change and a different class of people entering the hobby, even though the very large majority will never actually be impacted by it. There is a very populist feel to this thread, which is both understandable and predictable. The same thing has happened across the hobby-to-collectibles spectrum with other items. 

What admittedly sucks is being caught in the middle a bit. I have been a collector and enthusiast for many years, and my opinion is that, in a world where the collectibles market is a billion dollar industry or whatever, I’m glad video games is finally getting its rightful and historical place. That was Deniz’s goal from the start, and, believe what you will, but I’m quite confident that is his primary motivation in all this, even if in the end he will end up benefitting financially. Especially because I believe there is still absolutely room for the people who have been collecting for decades to operate much the same as they have. As I’ve mentioned before, most of the games moving now sat on Ebay for years without anyone caring.

So, like I said, I understand the anger and reluctance to accept something that has been thrown onto the community so quickly, but I think there’s been some overreaction and tribalism occurring that is making me uncomfortable. There is plenty of room for people to do their WATA thing, not do it, or to do both. 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

11 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Simply put, it looks bad from the outside in a way that discredits the perception of the  grading company's objectivity.

Whether it actually damages the objectivity is unknowable, but the Wata supporters in this thread seem way too quick to wave away the concerns as an "everyone is doing it", which when it comes to these kinds of things is a bad argument to make, IMO.

Oh no, I complete understand and agree. But I just go back to my point that it’s essentially impossible to get a subjective grading company off the ground and operate in a thriving market without a large portion of people thinking that at some point. 

As to the pedigree, no Dain doesn’t have the largest collection or most valuable, but I’d definitely argue in a world where pedigrees exist, his collection should get one. I don’t think it would be particularly controversial had anyone else submitted it. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by ExplodedHamster