Wata - A year and a half after

[GPX | 1,369]

12 hours ago, Prime2099 said:

So I'll say it since it hasn't been pointed out yet, but this scenario only works if Jeff is actuslly a "director" or "manager" (or someone with a financial stake in WATA). He purchases Dain's collection, then proceeds to get everything graded as part of the "Carolina Collection". Does no one see a potential problem with this? He makes the purchase then everything gets immediately graded. Could this be part of the reason why WATA is so backed up? 

 

Additionally I also agree that pedigrees for video games are dumb. Going by the definition of a pedigree for comics, they only consist of Golden Age or Silver Age comics in High Grade, include long runs with all the keys, and were all owned by the original owner who bought them off the rack. Is there a definition of a pedigree for games or am I missing something? Cause all I see when I see "Carolina Collection" is a dude bought stuff second hand over the years and put it in his house. They were in good shape, and owned by the guy who founded a website. He was not the original owner. (Unless I am mistaken on that)

The decision on the “Carolina Collection” seems more of a short term marketing ploy/profit rather than a long term vision. Down the track, I can see several problems  relating to collections coming from Carolina. Examples:

- what if a collector has a bigger and better stack than Dain’s?

- what if a collector has a genuine new and one-owner “pedigree” collection?

- what if a collector is genuinely famous like a movie star or pop star, who owns a valuable set of games?

What will they then call it? The “Carolina Collection not owned by Dain”?

[Bronty | 187]

3 minutes ago, GPX said:

The decision on the “Carolina Collection” seems more of a short term marketing ploy/profit rather than a long term vision. Down the track, I can see several problems  relating to collections coming from Carolina. Examples:

- what if a collector has a bigger and better stack than Dain’s?

- what if a collector has a genuine new and one-owner “pedigree” collection?

- what if a collector is genuinely famous like a movie star or pop star, who owns a valuable set of games?

What will they then call it? The “Carolina Collection not owned by Dain”?

Its not hard to find other names.

[GPX | 1,369]

Following on from the point above, at the end of the day, the labelling of pedigrees or “near enough” pedigrees shouldn’t really affect any of us except for those who wish to care about such things. Personally, I see it as a small issue compared with the over-exaggeration of the gigantic price leap in game values.

Edited November 14, 2019 by GPX

[Bronty | 187]

Just now, GPX said:

Following to the point above, at the end of the day, the labelling of pedigrees or “near enough” pedigrees shouldn’t really affect any of us except for those who wish to care about such things. Personally, I see it as a small issue compared with the over-exaggeration of the gigantic price leap in game values.

It is a small issue yes.

And to give you an example on the above, say you have two collections from new york.

You call one 'new york' and one ' big apple'.  

there's lot of ways around it.

[MiamiSlice | 3,089]

On 11/12/2019 at 10:29 AM, captmorgandrinker said:

I wouldn't say tank, but definitely cool off from these anomaly highs we've seen that don't make sense (fucking Golf).  

 

I'd love that. I'm a buyer far more than a seller. Most of what I buy, I never have any plans to sell. 

But I think the prices always look too high. I've seen threads from years ago where people said "these prices don't make sense, wait a few years and they will come down," and guess what? They didn't! 

So I do hope these "spikes" are just that. Hey, for all we know, we could enter a recession and that could present some excellent buying opportunities. But absent people stumbling on boxes and boxes of sealed retro games, it's not like these things are getting more common. Prices could totally keep going up. 

[GPX | 1,369]

4 minutes ago, Bronty said:

It is a small issue yes.

And to give you an example on the above, say you have two collections from new york.

You call one 'new york' and one ' big apple'.  

there's lot of ways around it.

I guess it now depends on how many collectors wishing to grade via WATA and go the pedigree route (if applicable). Would love to see how things are titled if a handful of collectors are from the same location.

[GPX | 1,369]

4 minutes ago, MiamiSlice said:

I'd love that. I'm a buyer far more than a seller. Most of what I buy, I never have any plans to sell. 

But I think the prices always look too high. I've seen threads from years ago where people said "these prices don't make sense, wait a few years and they will come down," and guess what? They didn't! 

So I do hope these "spikes" are just that. Hey, for all we know, we could enter a recession and that could present some excellent buying opportunities. But absent people stumbling on boxes and boxes of sealed retro games, it's not like these things are getting more common. Prices could totally keep going up. 

Depends how you look at it. Will prices come down to pre-WATA prices? Maybe not. Will some come down to a more feasible and sensible value? Likely yes.

Bearing in mind like any collectibles, some will continue to rise and some will drop in value. Not everything will end up being $100,000 or more. Even millionaires who wants to jump into the WATA scene surely need to spend money on food and bills also.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

The only thing I have against the Carolina Collection is it’s a useless pedigree.

NintendoAge no longer exists, and Dain was an absentee in the community for the better half of a decade now.

For the Carolina Collection to have any value requires Dain to still be a driving force in the community, or for NintendoAge to be put back on the map.

[DarkKobold | 190]

On 10/27/2019 at 10:11 AM, MrMark0673 said:

WATA is good for:

- People who work for the company.

- Their advisory board.

- People directly affiliated with Heritage/ComicLink/GoCollect.

- People who have sold for multiples of former “value” on HA and related sites.

- People who have been part of a manipulative puff piece article as a buyer/seller/member related to the auction house responsible for the sale/WATA owners and advisors.  Often the same person can fall into multiple groups in the above simultaneously. 

Seeing the “my first WATA submission” thread on NA shows how they handle a “typical” customer.  They’re turn around tiers are a joke and their communication is worse.  Been a ton of errors in listings on their games since their very short time grading, and obvious things like calling something a hang tab when there very obviously isn’t one present.

Couldn’t be less impressed with the company personally.  Would still consider using them as a profiteering service, but I’m not going to pretend that something like a beat to shit Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is a 4 figure game just because someone wants to spend that much on one.

To me, the saddest thing is that they've essentially created the Action Comics #1 of video game collecting out of thin air.

Very very few people in this hobby gave a shit or even mentioned sticker seal/hang tab games. Things like sealed or CIB Stadium Events were the measure of our hobby. CIB Samson for the lower tier. These things mattered to way more people. So, you have WATA, Dain, and GoCollect making "Sticker Seal SMB" the supposed "Grail" of the hobby. Something almost everyone gave zero shits about 2 years ago. Yes, there were a few people who cared, but they were far from the majority.

Now, we get some B.S. $100k sale for a copy, and it's on the tip of everyone's tongue. It doesn't matter that people who got into the hobby ages ago didn't give half a fuck about it. It's now the grail everyone outside our hobby will discuss. A perfect example is this article:

https://kotaku.com/deep-pocketed-collectors-are-fueling-a-retro-game-gold-1837073847

Quote

“I was surprised at how little knowledge some dealers, that have been doing this for—and I don’t want to say this in a negative way, so please don’t think I am—but they had no idea that, like, a ‘Left Bro’ Super Mario 3 was a first print.” (The first run of boxes for Super Mario Bros. 3 put the “Bros.” in the logo to Mario’s left side, which was changed by the second printing.)

“I was a little mind-blown by that because I’m like, this is your job,” she said. “I think that’s also why they’ve been so undervalued for so long.”at

No. It's because no one fucking cared. I hate this person for telling me what I should care about. I don't care which version of SMB3 I have, whether its a first print or not. In fact, we don't know how long this revision printed for.... so it may even be a third print. But, someone from outside the hobby is telling me to care about it. And is calling it "undervalued." No. It isn't. It's because no one cared. But now people are caring because you told them to.

That makes me irrationally angry.

[Startyde | 175]

5 hours ago, Bronty said:

It is a small issue yes.

And to give you an example on the above, say you have two collections from new york.

You call one 'new york' and one ' big apple'.  

there's lot of ways around it.

What happens when Ultra-rich Russian Baron, Vodka Someguyski, buys a bunch of Carolina Collection, Big Apple Collection, Salt Lake City collection, and now his collection is the biggest collection; when he goes to sell, are old collections retconned into a new collection? 

Mind explodes at how dumb this system is.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

23 minutes ago, DarkKobold said:

To me, the saddest thing is that they've essentially created the Action Comics #1 of video game collecting out of thin air.

Very very few people in this hobby gave a shit or even mentioned sticker seal/hang tab games. Things like sealed or CIB Stadium Events were the measure of our hobby. CIB Samson for the lower tier. These things mattered to way more people. So, you have WATA, Dain, and GoCollect making "Sticker Seal SMB" the supposed "Grail" of the hobby. Something almost everyone gave zero shits about 2 years ago. Yes, there were a few people who cared, but they were far from the majority.

Now, we get some B.S. $100k sale for a copy, and it's on the tip of everyone's tongue. It doesn't matter that people who got into the hobby ages ago didn't give half a fuck about it. It's now the grail everyone outside our hobby will discuss. A perfect example is this article:

https://kotaku.com/deep-pocketed-collectors-are-fueling-a-retro-game-gold-1837073847

No. It's because no one fucking cared. I hate this person for telling me what I should care about. I don't care which version of SMB3 I have, whether its a first print or not. In fact, we don't know how long this revision printed for.... so it may even be a third print. But, someone from outside the hobby is telling me to care about it. And is calling it "undervalued." No. It isn't. It's because no one cared. But now people are caring because you told them to.

That makes me irrationally angry.

I have to disagree with you. People have cared for years about the sticker seals and hangtabs. That’s why there were multiple buyers for the gloss SMB even at $100k+. Not all the potential buyers were new collectors.

There are many collectors who paid premiums for hangtab or sticker sealed games. Myself being one of them and I can tell you with 100% certainty others who collected sealed and CIB cared as well. It’s been a thing for as long as I can recall.

It just seems that with the hype, and new money coming in, those pieces in particular have skyrocketed in price, but the demand has always been there for those that collected CIB and sealed. The hangtab and/or sticker sealed games were, and still are, the pinnacle for a LOT of us. Which is why we own them. 

[Frost271 | 22]

I haven’t gone through this thread but my take as a long time collector is that WATA grading system is misleading and frankly a  bit of a joke. My god. Their “9.6” and A+ grades are equivalent to VGA 85 at best imo, but give folks the impression of a gem mint copy of a game. Granted they don’t take the wrap into consideration I believe so to each there own?  But I guess after a decade of VGA grading WATA titles are selling for insane prices?  People already believe this shits legit after a year and pay this type of money?  Is this normal when a new company that grades rolls around? 

In any case, people are supposedly paying these insane prices with only pictures of the front and back of the title?  Sure.... and a VGA 90 Metroid sat on Ebay for months but WATA titles fetching more on Heritage?  Guess this new wave of “collectors” on Heritage never checked Ebay for games and are snatching them up along with those comic book collectors who all of a sudden woke up one day and realized this is a hobby. 
 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Frost271

[Startyde | 175]

25 minutes ago, Frost271 said:

I haven’t gone through this thread but my take as a long time collector is that WATA grading system is misleading and frankly a  bit of a joke. My god. Their “9.6” and A+ grades are equivalent to VGA 85 at best imo, but give folks the impression of a gem mint copy of a game. Granted they don’t take the wrap into consideration I believe so to each there own?  But I guess after a decade of VGA grading WATA titles are selling for insane prices?  People already believe this shits legit after a year and pay this type of money?  Is this normal when a new company that grades rolls around? 

In any case, people are supposedly paying these insane prices with only pictures of the front and back of the title?  Sure.... and a VGA 90 Metroid sat on Ebay for months but WATA titles fetching more on Heritage?  Guess this new wave of “collectors” on Heritage never checked Ebay for games and are snatching them up along with those comic book collectors who all of a sudden woke up one day and realized this is a hobby. 
 

 

I don't mind when the ignorant rich lose money to the more savy pleebs, it's like a modern day Robin Hood. To your point, many don't even know VGA existed for the last decade and if they do, certainly don't understand the grade curve as you described. 

The X factor of gaming is noone truly knows how much is out there. It's not like obscure "funny books" that were read and tossed in the 60s. Collectable gaming is primarily from the 80s on, all within many of our lifetimes. Even when an infant hobby, Atari was producing so many carts they had to bury them. I'm sure test market stuff will be rare but most of everything else, who honestly knows. 

TLDR: It's all good.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Startyde

[Rman | 23]

[DarkKobold | 190]

22 hours ago, MinusWorlds said:

I have to disagree with you. People have cared for years about the sticker seals and hangtabs. That’s why there were multiple buyers for the gloss SMB even at $100k+. Not all the potential buyers were new collectors.

There are many collectors who paid premiums for hangtab or sticker sealed games. Myself being one of them and I can tell you with 100% certainty others who collected sealed and CIB cared as well. It’s been a thing for as long as I can recall.

It just seems that with the hype, and new money coming in, those pieces in particular have skyrocketed in price, but the demand has always been there for those that collected CIB and sealed. The hangtab and/or sticker sealed games were, and still are, the pinnacle for a LOT of us. Which is why we own them. 

I did try to acknowledge that there was a few people interested. However, they were the vast minority to those who cared about Stadium Events or other rarities like the Panesians, Cheetahment II, and etc. Now, this previously niche thing is being treated as the "end all be all" of the hobby, where people like Danielle think you are an idiot for not knowing which print was first.

 

 

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

20 hours ago, Frost271 said:

People already believe this shits legit after a year and pay this type of money?  Is this normal when a new company that grades rolls around? 

Not normal. VGA hardcore failed to capitalize on this market. As an outsider it seems in short like they "don't care" because, correct me if I'm wrong, their only response to Wata has been a brief sale? Wata rode an initial wave of goodwill of being modern/having well known faces/grading CIB and had a much better business strategy overall. Remember, one of the big thing that brought in investors was Mario, a game that was crossed over from VGA to Wata before being sold, and big time collectors, investors, and an auction house had their hand in that deal which hugely legitimized Wata.

As far as I understand how it recently went down in comics, CBCS (Steve Borock, Wata advisory board member!) hit the market and made waves. Subjectively people liked their holders better, but their prices were slightly lower than existing CGC books because people had more trust in the existing standard, which isn't the case with VGA.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

2 hours ago, DarkKobold said:

I did try to acknowledge that there was a few people interested. However, they were the vast minority to those who cared about Stadium Events or other rarities like the Panesians, Cheetahment II, and etc. Now, this previously niche thing is being treated as the "end all be all" of the hobby, where people like Danielle think you are an idiot for not knowing which print was first.

 

 

We’ve always been a niche part of the market. We still are. It’s just that with all the high profile sales that small slice of the overall market is getting serious exposure. I think the grossly obvious push by some to push others to the MTPO’s, Mario’s & Zelda’s is slimey. But you know what? It give me the chance to go and grab other things that they aren’t looking at yet. 

It’s also not Wata themselves that are making that push. They are just the preferred grading service for those who are. And, it’s not Wata’s fault they try to educate collectors and people use that info to try and cash in on sales. People need to stop blaming Wata for a lot of this. It’s not them specifically. 

[hyrulevyse | 151]

On 11/14/2019 at 5:04 PM, DarkKobold said:

To me, the saddest thing is that they've essentially created the Action Comics #1 of video game collecting out of thin air.

Very very few people in this hobby gave a shit or even mentioned sticker seal/hang tab games. Things like sealed or CIB Stadium Events were the measure of our hobby. CIB Samson for the lower tier. These things mattered to way more people. So, you have WATA, Dain, and GoCollect making "Sticker Seal SMB" the supposed "Grail" of the hobby. Something almost everyone gave zero shits about 2 years ago. Yes, there were a few people who cared, but they were far from the majority.

Now, we get some B.S. $100k sale for a copy, and it's on the tip of everyone's tongue. It doesn't matter that people who got into the hobby ages ago didn't give half a fuck about it. It's now the grail everyone outside our hobby will discuss. A perfect example is this article:

https://kotaku.com/deep-pocketed-collectors-are-fueling-a-retro-game-gold-1837073847

No. It's because no one fucking cared. I hate this person for telling me what I should care about. I don't care which version of SMB3 I have, whether its a first print or not. In fact, we don't know how long this revision printed for.... so it may even be a third print. But, someone from outside the hobby is telling me to care about it. And is calling it "undervalued." No. It isn't. It's because no one cared. But now people are caring because you told them to.

That makes me irrationally angry.

 

On 11/14/2019 at 5:36 PM, MinusWorlds said:

I have to disagree with you. People have cared for years about the sticker seals and hangtabs. That’s why there were multiple buyers for the gloss SMB even at $100k+. Not all the potential buyers were new collectors.

There are many collectors who paid premiums for hangtab or sticker sealed games. Myself being one of them and I can tell you with 100% certainty others who collected sealed and CIB cared as well. It’s been a thing for as long as I can recall.

It just seems that with the hype, and new money coming in, those pieces in particular have skyrocketed in price, but the demand has always been there for those that collected CIB and sealed. The hangtab and/or sticker sealed games were, and still are, the pinnacle for a LOT of us. Which is why we own them. 

I have to disagree with your disagreement.  Hangtabs have always been thing, stickers have not, and from my perspective most cib collectors really just cared about getting non rev-a versions if there were both.  I'm embarrassed to say I didn't even realize there were two different types of stickers before this craziness happened, I thought they were all the same.  Clearly I'm not the most knowledgable collector ever, but I've been around a long time and that's kind of the point.  I can't recall any WTB posts from people looking for these, they weren't being discussed like 5 screw variants or tracked like NWC's (why not if they're as rare as everyone claims), etc....

I'm not doubting you've always cared about them, and others have as well.  But when you say 'a lot of us' I have to assume your interpretation of lot is much smaller than mine.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

3 hours ago, hyrulevyse said:

 

I have to disagree with your disagreement.  Hangtabs have always been thing, stickers have not, and from my perspective most cib collectors really just cared about getting non rev-a versions if there were both.  I'm embarrassed to say I didn't even realize there were two different types of stickers before this craziness happened, I thought they were all the same.  Clearly I'm not the most knowledgable collector ever, but I've been around a long time and that's kind of the point.  I can't recall any WTB posts from people looking for these, they weren't being discussed like 5 screw variants or tracked like NWC's (why not if they're as rare as everyone claims), etc....

I'm not doubting you've always cared about them, and others have as well.  But when you say 'a lot of us' I have to assume your interpretation of lot is much smaller than mine.

How about “a lot more than people realize”? Maybe that is more accurate. Because “a lot” is a relative term. They have always been cared about for sure. But you’re right, it really depends on what people would consider a lot. At the end of the day we’re talking about a very small subset, within a very small subset. I won’t argue that. That subset is growing tho, some organically, and some because of the hype. 

[Rooster | 124]

I've finished reading through all 19 pages of this interesting discussion so I'll finally drop my own opinion on the original question of if WATA is good for the hobby.  I think it's a good service to have, and if I came into possession of a sealed game I'd send it to them probably.  I don't like that they grade CIBs, but unless a huge wave of crazy psychopaths starts grading cart-only games, then it is not likely to affect me and my collecting interests.  I always knew it was only a matter of time before comic and toy collectors started getting involved in game collecting, and if that's the case, then fine.  There is always going to be some kind of ''enemy'' to the community, whether it's graders, or ye olde dirty reseller.  If they want in, let them come and bring their wallets. 

 

Lastly, i have no opinion on any gossip of alleged collusion among Wata or anyone else. 

[TheBiRD | 137]

Interesting thread to add to this discussion : 

 

 

[Rareusgold | 1]

On 11/5/2019 at 8:05 AM, rorsch said:

I love you Mark. This was exactly my argument.

Rorsch do you have any graded WATA games?