MinusWorlds | 193 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 minute ago, CodysGameRoom said: To be fair, YOU know Deniz and Kenneth. Some of you do. A lot of us don't. Why should anyone who doesn't know them, or you, take your word, about their intentions? I don't care either way, I'm just pointing this out. That’s fair. I guess my point is they come from this community. That should mean something. I’m happy to pull up a chair and talk about the “good ole’ days” when we were all just kids chasing girls and video games. Or that time I met up with @doner24 and he hit on me over beers. Okay, okay he didn’t hit on me, but that’s still what the community is about. Having a good time with fellow collectors. That part doesn’t have to change just because a small piece of the hobby is big money now. You may not know Deniz or Kenneth but if you make it to a convention and they are there. I guarantee you they would love to have a beer with you. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmorgandrinker | 1,649 Administrator · Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Bronty said: Oh that’s fine, zero Offense taken. I remember as a teen collecting comics and wondering WTF anyone would do with comic art (‘I’m going to have a single page on the wall? Bizarre). But you start taking part in some of the discussions and you get a little interested and whatnot and then I got my first game cover in the mail and in the half second I saw it I knew I’d be collecting that instead. Tell you what if you’re ever in southern Ontario I’ll show you some and maybe and you can decide for yourself. Cheers. I'm afraid to be in the same room as that thing, and I've been 20 linear feet from 10 million dollars before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinusWorlds | 193 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Also, just to add. It’s been a LONG time since this community was this active. There’s pros and cons to almost everything. I love the new found energy. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplodedHamster | 404 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, doner24 said: They get that equity for capital infusion. Right, but my main point is that equity likely would not entice enough people to invest money into a grading service if they were also agreeing to not enter the market. The margins are simply not high enough to make it back in a reasonable amount of time, absent a buyout. I am not an investor and cannot speak for them, but I have to believe the potential of an increased market is very likely a major part of what got people to invest. I could be wrong, but I do strongly believe they’d have never gotten off the ground with those restrictions. Edited November 8, 2019 by ExplodedHamster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doner24 | 1,197 Moderator · Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Just now, ExplodedHamster said: Right, but my main point is that equity would not entice enough people to invest money into a grading service if they were also agreeing to not enter the market. The margins are simply not high enough to make it back in a reasonable amount of time, absent a buyout. I am not an investor and cannot speak for them, but I have to believe the potential of an increased market is very likely a major part of what got people to invest. Investing capitol into a company for equity is almost always a long play, unless you’re an investment company coming in to clean up shop and sell off to another high bidder (usually a strategic sale) in 5ish years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said: Right, but my main point is that equity would not entice enough people to invest money into a grading service if they were also agreeing to not enter the market. The margins are simply not high enough to make it back in a reasonable amount of time, absent a buyout. I am not an investor and cannot speak for them, but I have to believe the potential of an increased market is very likely a major part of what got people to invest. Per the link upthread, CLCT has 18% net profit margin, so some element of authentication/grading businesses are making money out there in the world. I haven't dug through the details of what component of their company and services are doing the heavy lifting to get that kind of margin, but that is a HEALTHY margin for a service-oriented business. For a start-up endeavor like Wata, if they got a footprint and were able to be acquired by a big company like that would offer the prospect of a huge multiplier on the initial capital. But I never saw Deniz and Kenneth's business plan or investor proposition, so I can't speak to how well THEY hoped to do, in terms of enticing outside investment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 33 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said: I'm afraid to be in the same room as that thing, and I've been 20 linear feet from 10 million dollars before. Well, I do find I'm careful not to spill any drinks LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bronty said: Well, I do find I'm careful not to spill any drinks LOL Back when I was an intern, I had the opportunity to take a demo ride on a Gulfstream G-V with a few other interns, because one of their dads was a pilot for Executive Jet (a predecessor to NetJets). That kid had the audacity to break out refreshments for all of us from the airplane bar. And then the pilot was doing "noise abatement takeoffs" (i.e. STEEP angle) as part of the check-ride while we had drinks in hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPX | 1,370 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 49 minutes ago, MinusWorlds said: Yeah I suppose you’re right about VGA. They did take a thumping. My point is we know Deniz and Kenneth. Do you honestly think they would do anything shady? I don’t. I think the appearances of conflicts of interest are exaggerated. I think some of this was avoidable while other aspects were not. At the end of the day I believe they only care about bettering and advancing the hobby. I think the poll makes it seem like this thread is an all out attack on WATA as a grading service company. Where in fact the majority of the discussions are surrounding the circumstances and hype of the sales, specifically relating to WATA-graded games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sign Collector Guy | 334 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said: Back when I was an intern, I had the opportunity to take a demo ride on a Gulfstream G-V with a few other interns, because one of their dads was a pilot for Executive Jet (a predecessor to NetJets). That kid had the audacity to break out refreshments for all of us from the airplane bar. And then the pilot was doing "noise abatement takeoffs" (i.e. STEEP angle) as part of the check-ride while we had drinks in hand... I have been a passenger in the jet the corporation I work for, owns. I really wanted to take a deuce on the trip but I was told that is "frowned upon' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, Sign Collector Guy said: I have been a passenger in the jet the corporation I work for, owns. I really wanted to take a deuce on the trip but I was told that is "frowned upon' All depends on the size of the jet. A Gulfstream is big enough and the bathroom has good enough exhaust that the smell should stay pretty contained. But there are smaller business jets out there where you definitely aren't doing the other passengers any favors. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Startyde | 175 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, MinusWorlds said: That’s fair. I guess my point is they come from this community. That should mean something. I get where you're coming from but this is a logical falacy. By that definition, everyone should always trust family because they're family, and many of us have experiences when that trust didn't pan out. Noone on TV being interviewed about some criminal act ever said "oh yeah, I totally knew they were shady, even though we hung out all the time." It's always a surprise. I'm not saying Wata is suspicious, but actions speak louder than words. They were part of this "community" when it came time to announce and advertise, but over the last year when orders weren't being met, communication was starved and many on NA were asking for any form of acknowlegement, where were they? Maybe if you were lucky, someone would quote something off a FB post if at all. TLDR: It doesnt matter if you can vouch for someone as a good person to talk to, when it comes to business and the exchage of money and services, you have to walk the walk too. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 It’s definitely tough once you fall behind. Don’t communicate and people are upset. Communicate and people say you should be spending that time clearing the backlog. The only way to win is to not fall behind. Part of that is managing expectations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doner24 | 1,197 Moderator · Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 25 minutes ago, Bronty said: It’s definitely tough once you fall behind. Don’t communicate and people are upset. Communicate and people say you should be spending that time clearing the backlog. The only way to win is to not fall behind. Part of that is managing expectations. Exactly, you’d rather fall a hair behind than not have business, but that’s where strong communication needs to be relayed immediately. I’ll take less than what I paid for, as long as people are responsive and polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Startyde | 175 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 26 minutes ago, Bronty said: It’s definitely tough once you fall behind. Don’t communicate and people are upset. Communicate and people say you should be spending that time clearing the backlog. The only way to win is to not fall behind. Part of that is managing expectations. I don't even think it's that, they started a new venture and there are many moving parts. Ppl are reasonable, they just want to know what's going on. That's being part of a community. Anyone in services can attest that no communication is the worst of all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinusWorlds | 193 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Startyde said: I get where you're coming from but this is a logical falacy. By that definition, everyone should always trust family because they're family, and many of us have experiences when that trust didn't pan out. Noone on TV being interviewed about some criminal act ever said "oh yeah, I totally knew they were shady, even though we hung out all the time." It's always a surprise. I'm not saying Wata is suspicious, but actions speak louder than words. They were part of this "community" when it came time to announce and advertise, but over the last year when orders weren't being met, communication was starved and many on NA were asking for any form of acknowlegement, where were they? Maybe if you were lucky, someone would quote something off a FB post if at all. TLDR: It doesnt matter if you can vouch for someone as a good person to talk to, when it comes to business and the exchage of money and services, you have to walk the walk too. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I’m not saying they should have a free pass and be able to do whatever they want. But, what exactly have they done? They may or may not have given a Director a meaningless pedigree. Okay. Guess what? Jeff wasn’t the only one looking to buy Dain’s collection and other parties that were interested wanted a pedigree as well. It was getting one either way. So that point is moot. <this part is for everyone> Yes their communication needs to be better. They realize this and I think they will get it straightened out. Along with the backlog issues. I don’t understand the incessant need for all the drama. There’s no grand conspiracy and Wata isn’t the Illuminati. Communication is also a two-way street. NOBODY asked Kenneth or Deniz about the Jaws game. Why is that? I mean people have been screaming from the rooftops about it being a blatant and obvious f up on Wata’s part but not a single person asked why it was graded that way?!? That doesn’t strike anyone as odd? I asked and got an answer that makes 100% sense. FYI, the reason nobody asked is they prob knew there was a valid answer and they couldn’t continue to spin a BS narrative. People need to put down the pitchforks and go play a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sign Collector Guy | 334 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 The matrix scanning app really needs to happen. Like soon. A highly boasted launch feature of Wata and still not available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonebone | 1,307 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Lots of activity here. Few points on a lot posted. I also have have no doubts that the Carolina Collection was graded fairly. I wrote a crossover article that Wata will eventually publish, or I'll post, and the grades made sense. Some were higher and some were lower but nothing was egregious or grossly inflated. The conflict of interest isn't our problem, but it might be theirs if lawsuits ever come up. America is a sue happy country anyways. Both sides have said their point. In cards, BGS has issues but PSA is in a scandal too. This summer the BlowoutCards forum found a scandal between a cosigner, PWCC and the grader, PSA selling trimmed and upgraded copies of the same exact card. Big gossip, got some articles but the stock is still going fine. Ultimately no matter how much Wata is discussed, they're still grading a ton of games and that wont change. In terms of VGA, yes they have issues too. Lots of those issues are self inflicted when you grow too big too fast and start authenticating too much too quickly. Q games made no sense and every grading company let's a fake by at some point unfortunately. I thought VGA was willing to buy back the fake, which is commonplace when a grading company screws up, but the owner wanted to prove a point and keep it. In terms of investment in Wata, I was also asked and they wanted a TON of money for a share. It wasnt a trivial amount and I also thought it was way too much to buy in. They seem to be doing well but 2 years ago this sealed market was really stagnant. They wouldn't have succeeded by just getting VGA people to hop over, they had to create a whole new market. Apparently they did. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinusWorlds | 193 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) They offered to buy back the Altered Beast. Sure, that’s great. Even in this market that game prob isn’t $1k. What about the Sqoon and Mana reseals they graded? They were made aware they were fakes and not only didn’t offer to buy them back, they doubled down and reencased the games!!! What the heck is that all about? Seriously. Maybe they didn’t want to pay the $7k for the Mana or the who knows what insane amount for the Sqoon. So hey, just plug your ears and not accept that you messed up. Awesome. Nobody is suing Wata, there’s no grounds to. Nobody has been duped, robbed, or swindled. There’s no Ponzi scheme. There’s no collusion. If people really want to get mad, get mad at the buyers. Stop with this conflict of interest thing. The only potential conflict could be giving Wata investors or associates a grade bump. Nobody is even saying that’s happened and I know for a fact everyone at Wata understands that can never happen. Ever. Edited November 9, 2019 by MinusWorlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitsupremacy | 208 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 I love collecting video games, and actually play my games, a lot (even the bad ones). I've been playing since I was old enough use an NES controller, obsessed with Nintendo ever since, and inevitably started collecting for the NES back in 1996, in the Mike Etler list days. Things are waaaaay different now, with both popularity of the hobby and the money involved in it. Change is inevitable, and I think it's great that in recent years a lot of genuine folks have discovered a great hobby and share (I assume) the same love and enthusiasm for collecting/playing old video games that I do, but as for the grading bullshit i think it's just that...bullshit. One big con devised by a con man linking up with other con men to pump up the values of their own collections for the inevitable sell off to the next mark in line. Fundamentally speaking it is offensive to me as someone who constantly plays their games, as I consider those graded copies basically taken out of circulation for someone to enjoy, but it's not my money so let the morons blow their cash on speculation and fabricated "value". You want some made-up buzz term to validate your thousand dollar purchase, be my guest, but that game is the same game when you fire it up and play it despite whatever print you have or seem to believe is important for the sake of value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 That’s one point of view. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitsupremacy | 208 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 1:31 PM, Californication said: Why don't you guys do this on the Go Collect site. I thought we were going to leave all this noise over there. This drama does not build the community. I made a negative comment about Wata and it got deleted by a mod within an hour or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hu7 | 1 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, MinusWorlds said: Plenty of people have that mindset, and that’s okay. It’s okay to prefer VGA. But, when you make it your personal crusade to bring Wata down or bad mouth them at every turn the comparisons need to come up, even if just to highlight and remind people of the benefits Wata brings to the table. Guys/Girls - At the end of the day Wata is Deniz and Kenneth. These are our friends. We’ve known them for a decade. I’m sure some of you even helped change Deniz’ diapers (just kidding Deniz, you know I love you). We have joked, shared, and grew a community together. They made Wata out of a desire to advance the hobby they love as much as we do. Why are we so quick to try and tear them down? Yes the hobby has changed, yes it feels like a business at times, but we all helped get it here. Every one of us. This community started here, we’re all responsible for where we are. I said it before, but I’ll repeat it because I think it’s worth saying again. Without all of us and new collectors coming in over the years this hobby could have died a long time ago. I don’t think any of us want that. Man... The amount of anti vga talking points ive heard from wata supporters through this whole fiasco is clearly THE personal crusade. It’s been non stop and the majority of people see right through it. I get it. Let’s get this new grading company up and rolling. Let’s create a group of talking points to get new money into wata instead of vga. This thread isn’t even about vga.... there is no need for that. Edited November 9, 2019 by Hu7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) Vga has been like 3% of the discussion and only brought up in passing ? Personally I love the guys at vga and I still use them for some material. I also have no issue with wata. They are both credible graders. I do like the outreach wata has done but opinions on that are clearly mixed Edited November 9, 2019 by Bronty 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWunderful | 2,927 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 8 hours ago, 8bitsupremacy said: I made a negative comment about Wata and it got deleted by a mod within an hour or so. We made this site so people can say whatever they want (within site rules) so no critical discussion is struck down by parties. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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