spacepup | 2,404 Administrator · Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 @Bronty Jone talked a lot about the "appearance" of things, and clearly that is important and has had an impact on people's minds and view here. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but you also need to understand how things have looked. I didn't realize the advisory board wasn't actually doing anything - I assumed they were, well, advising on WATA operations or even grading issues. As WATA graded games started rolling out, we started to see very high grades on items [comparatively much higher than VGA because of the scale difference], some of which came from the advisory board members. And then we saw the pedigree "Carolina Collection" which in my personal opinion, shouldn't even be a part of the grading process - I think that was a big mistake. And another question is - if the advisory board isn't actually doing anything at all, then does it seem disingenuous to you to have the group of experts listed there? They are being used to lend credibility to the WATA process, by pulling in a group of longtime experts and having their faces and profiles listed prominently as an advisory board. It creates the impression the WATA knows what they are doing and has a team of very experienced advisory members there to help facilitate the process and/or lend credibility and equity to the grading process, other processes, etc. So by you saying they aren't doing anything at all, it feels a bit disingenuous to have them listed there. I have nothing personal against Ken or Deniz, and by all accounts they are great guys. And I absolutely understand your points about aligned interests versus conflict of interest, etc. But there are some issues or perceived issues here, that have created doubt in some people's minds, and I think given some of what I just described above, I don't think it's unreasonable doubt in all cases. I think it's important to understand WHY some people are feeling the way they do, or where the concerns might come from. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 hours ago, spacepup said: @Bronty Jone talked a lot about the "appearance" of things, and clearly that is important and has had an impact on people's minds and view here. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but you also need to understand how things have looked. I didn't realize the advisory board wasn't actually doing anything - I assumed they were, well, advising on WATA operations or even grading issues. As WATA graded games started rolling out, we started to see very high grades on items [comparatively much higher than VGA because of the scale difference], some of which came from the advisory board members. And then we saw the pedigree "Carolina Collection" which in my personal opinion, shouldn't even be a part of the grading process - I think that was a big mistake. And another question is - if the advisory board isn't actually doing anything at all, then does it seem disingenuous to you to have the group of experts listed there? They are being used to lend credibility to the WATA process, by pulling in a group of longtime experts and having their faces and profiles listed prominently as an advisory board. It creates the impression the WATA knows what they are doing and has a team of very experienced advisory members there to help facilitate the process and/or lend credibility and equity to the grading process, other processes, etc. So by you saying they aren't doing anything at all, it feels a bit disingenuous to have them listed there. I have nothing personal against Ken or Deniz, and by all accounts they are great guys. And I absolutely understand your points about aligned interests versus conflict of interest, etc. But there are some issues or perceived issues here, that have created doubt in some people's minds, and I think given some of what I just described above, I don't think it's unreasonable doubt in all cases. I think it's important to understand WHY some people are feeling the way they do, or where the concerns might come from. Yeah, that's fine, but that's why asking questions is magical right? You get answers. Uninformed accusations help no one. As for the whole advisory board thing, frankly its because its not an active board that I don't want my name up there really at this point. It was fine when we were initially providing advice. That said, the guys have been so overrun with work that I haven't wanted to bother them about it as I'm sure updating the website is not high on the totem pole of priorities ATM. In principle, I agree that its kinda time to take that part of the site down, but again, they are backed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 hours ago, jonebone said: A couple more examples of conflict of interest: Conflict of interest from a legality perspective. Example, I cannot own Boeing stock and then negotiate a $500M military purchase on behalf of the US Govt. People go to jail for that. wow yeah, that's exactly what this is like. I just ordered a couple F-35s the other day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, jonebone said: Oh, and then Wata graded and certified a resealed Jaws! That blew my mind. I don't care if Miyamoto himself is operating the resealing machine, a reseal is a reseal. They called it a Ljn 3rd party reseal or something. So once again, to HA, it's perfectly fine to sell sealed "No Seal" Wata games, yet they cannot sell a VGA game. They clearly aren't just being an unbiased auction house, they are only being a storefront for Wata games at this point. It also creates anonymity for the seller, so you really don't know who owned the game that is appearing there.... Either way, could go on and on but people should get the point now. FWIW I agree with some of those criticisms, they seem to be following the comics and maybe coin models where production flaws are either not counted or heavily discounted in weight. I've never liked that approach, but its been out there at least twenty years from other grading co's. There is definitely an argument for ignoring production flaws (the way it got to the customer is the way it got to the customer) and as a grading co ignoring those means you can make your grading less subjective and therefore more standardized, more consistent, and easier to train new people on. But as a consumer, I've always just want mint I don't care if the flaws are production related or not. Edited November 7, 2019 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepup | 2,404 Administrator · Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 @Bronty If you read through his post - he was saying this is NOT like that. He was using that as an example of the legal conflict of interest that is NOT the case with WATA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, spacepup said: @Bronty If you read through his post - he was saying this is NOT like that. He was using that as an example of the legal conflict of interest that is NOT the case with WATA. I read that later so yeah I might have reacted differently but he lost me at $500m planes. Anyways, I agree that some might perceive a conflict with a board member selling games but I think that's frankly an unrealistic expectation and more a problem with the reader's expectations than with the actual situation. How would you do it any other way? You're not going to find qualified people that aren't active in the hobby for neutrality purposes, because you have to be active to have any knowledge in the first place. Edited November 7, 2019 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepup | 2,404 Administrator · Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Bronty - what are your thoughts on this? https://www.watagames.com/learn/blog/post/the-carolina-collection/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, spacepup said: Bronty - what are your thoughts on this? https://www.watagames.com/learn/blog/post/the-carolina-collection/ without reading hte link, you mean the whole pedigree angle? Similar to my thoughts on production flaws. I understand why they did it, and it would qualify under the rules for certain other hobbies, but I'm not a fan of it in this case. Not really a fan of pedigrees for notable people unless its someone crazy famous. That said, there's precedent for that kind of move in the greater world of grading co's so its not like its completely out of left field. Edited November 7, 2019 by Bronty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Bronty said: Anyways, I agree that some might perceive a conflict with a board member selling games but I think that's frankly an unrealistic expectation and more a problem with the reader's expectations than with the actual situation. How would you do it any other way? You're not going to find qualified people that aren't active in the hobby for neutrality purposes, because you have to be active to have any knowledge in the first place. That's the rub. But just because it may be unrealistic to not allow board members to participate in the service at all, that does not mean that the appearance of conflict doesn't exist. You could certainly have qualified people like yourself willing to provide the input and be neutral, but still "active in the hobby", but also willing to forgo using the grading service or associated auction house directly. Nobody is saying it wouldn't represent a sacrifice. And that sacrifice may be significant, if use of the service creates a significant boost in value for an item. But that is hand-in-hand with avoiding the appearance of conflict-of-interest. In this case, all of the players simply decided they weren't willing to make such a sacrifice to avoid the potential appearance of conflict. That is your, and their, prerogative. But that means valid criticisms about conflict of interest will continue to exist, as well. Edited November 7, 2019 by arch_8ngel 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyrulevyse | 151 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 10 hours ago, GPX said: Current: speculators jumping in (from other markets) to tell longtime collectors how things should really be. It’s bucking the trend of how collecting things should be valued. To me it would seem just as odd if someone on here who collects retro games and going public buying up certain coins and telling coin collectors that these recently purchased coins are “worth bazillions”. This is the point I've been making ever since this started. I just don't think you can make one to one parallels between hobbies like that. I can absolutely see the Mario's, Zelda's, and alike stay high value wise, but I hope some of these speculators take a bath on the Slaloms and Urban Champions of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPX | 1,370 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said: That's the rub. But just because it may be unrealistic to not allow board members to participate in the service at all, that does not mean that the appearance of conflict doesn't exist. You could certainly have qualified people like yourself willing to provide the input and be neutral, but still "active in the hobby", but also willing to forgo using the grading service or associated auction house directly. Nobody is saying it wouldn't represent a sacrifice. And that sacrifice may be significant, if use of the service creates a significant boost in value for an item. But that is hand-in-hand with avoiding the appearance of conflict-of-interest. In this case, all of the players simply decided they weren't willing to make such a sacrifice to avoid the potential appearance of conflict. That is your, and their, prerogative. But that means valid criticisms about conflict of interest will continue to exist, as well. There’s actions by the selling parties, and there’s the consumers’ opinions on the actions of the selling parties. The selling parties can do what they want (as long as it’s legal), but their actions are directly responsible for the consumers opinions, whether rightly or wrongly. This is a fact of life. I do feel the articles that reported the recent big sales actually didn’t do them a favor. It felt too much of a fake hype rather than genuine news. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said: That's the rub. But just because it may be unrealistic to not allow board members to participate in the service at all, that does not mean that the appearance of conflict doesn't exist. You could certainly have qualified people like yourself willing to provide the input and be neutral, but still "active in the hobby", but also willing to forgo using the grading service or associated auction house directly. Who? Easy to say in theory, hard to do in practice. Furthermore if the board doesn't meet anymore, what does it matter if board members send in games, or not? I understand some of the questions and I don't mind them. This discussion now is great. Its the finger pointing and accusations this started with that are off base. Tempest in a teapot stuff. Again, I think some of the expectations are naive and/or unrealistic. Grading co's are not free from appearances of conflict. Heck they probably aren't free from actual conflicts. They don't exist in a vacuum. But to suggest its all essentially a scam (as some have done) is just misinformed and fearful. Like really, what's the problem. Use the service, ignore the service, brew a cup of tea, who the fuck cares. Edited November 7, 2019 by Bronty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, Bronty said: Who? Easy to say in theory, hard to do in practice. Furthermore if the board doesn't meet anymore, what does it matter if board members send in games, or not? I understand some of the questions and I don't mind them. This discussion now is great. Its the finger pointing and accusations that are off base. Tempest in a teapot stuff. Again, I think some of the expectations are naive and/or unrealistic. Grading co's are not free from appearances of conflict. Heck they probably aren't free from actual conflicts. They don't exist in a vacuum. But to suggest its all essentially a scam is just misinformed and fearful. Pointing out conflicts of interest (real or just appearance) is not quite the same as saying it is "essentially a scam", at least not in my opinion. And I'm not suggesting that avoiding the conflicts is easy to do in practice -- that is why major companies have entire departments devoted to it when the stakes are higher -- because it can be really difficult to navigate. It's a tough problem, made tougher by a relatively small/close community of potential contributors. It may be too tough of a problem to practically solve... but that doesn't magic away the issue from existence. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaglePuss | 80 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Oddly enough, WATA wasn't too busy to remove Jonas from the advisory page. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Bogomil | 815 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 I find it bizarre how we got to this point so quickly. There is no way this was an organic or genuine change to the hobby so I'm not sure how long it'll be sustained. I agree that some sealed games were probably due for an upward adjustment but it's hard get behind how this all came to fruition. I also think WATA got greedy by grading anything under the sun and now the fact that they are boosting prices to deal with their incompetencies is absolute insane to me but I guess they can get away with it as long as the customers continue to make a significant profit from their services. As someone who doesn't have a horse in the race it is at least interesting to watch and discuss. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplodedHamster | 404 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, jonebone said: A couple more examples of conflict of interest: Conflict of interest from a legality perspective. Example, I cannot own Boeing stock and then negotiate a $500M military purchase on behalf of the US Govt. People go to jail for that. Edit - Nevermind, I can’t read good. Edited November 7, 2019 by ExplodedHamster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepup | 2,404 Administrator · Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said: What are you talking about? What’s this in reference to where WATA is concerned? If you read through the conversation - he was talking about different types of conflicts of interest - and explaining that the legal conflict (like he referenced) was NOT the kind he was referring to regarding WATA. Read the conversation before and his post, and you'll see what he's getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplodedHamster | 404 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, BeaglePuss said: Oddly enough, WATA wasn't too busy to remove Jonas from the advisory page. 36 minutes ago, Andy_Bogomil said: I find it bizarre how we got to this point so quickly. There is no way this was an organic or genuine change to the hobby so I'm not sure how long it'll be sustained. I agree that some sealed games were probably due for an upward adjustment but it's hard get behind how this all came to fruition. I also think WATA got greedy by grading anything under the sun and now the fact that they are boosting prices to deal with their incompetencies is absolute insane to me but I guess they can get away with it as long as the customers continue to make a significant profit from their services. As someone who doesn't have a horse in the race it is at least interesting to watch and discuss. I think it’s far more natural of an upward adjustment than you’re giving it credit for because whenever there is this transition to “true collectible,” there’s often kind of spike. The transition usually occurs when an established community of really rich people get interested in something and start competing for it. So the money just kind of explodes overnight. These people have far more to spend than they have now, as well, so it’s due for more spikes if it maintains their interest. Edited November 7, 2019 by ExplodedHamster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplodedHamster | 404 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, spacepup said: If you read through the conversation - he was talking about different types of conflicts of interest - and explaining that the legal conflict (like he referenced) was NOT the kind he was referring to regarding WATA. Read the conversation before and his post, and you'll see what he's getting at. Ah yes, I see. I misread it, I thought he was listing off conflicts he saw, not laying them out. Sorry about that! Bronty did the same thing above, too, and I missed it . Edited November 7, 2019 by ExplodedHamster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said: I think it’s far more natural of an upward adjustment than you’re giving it credit for because whenever there is this transition to “true collectible,” there’s this kind of spike. The transition usually occurs when an established community of really rich people get interested in something and start competing for it. So the money just kind of explodes overnight. These people have far more to spend than they have now, as well, so it’s due for more spikes if it maintains their interest. I don't think this happens that often... it IS a bit unique IMO in that everybody loves them but so few realized that collecting them is even a thing. Most people... if there isn't a market for something, won't chase after it or try to create it. This is us literally being completely unknown to becoming slightly known. Agree that if interest last, this won't be the end. I've been saying for 20 years that the money in our hobby, even now, is a drop in the ocean compared to the more established hobbies. If you make this hobby a glass of water or a puddle instead of a drop, the increases on quality material will continue in a big way. But, that could go either way, there are no guarantees. That being said, the fundamentals for what the established hobby crowd likes are not only there but set to grow (think Mario motion picture no doubt going to be a block buster, no doubt spin offs from that, we will have a whole nintendo universe of movies a la marvel, I'd take that to the bank). The established hobbies love that kind of future outlook because its a very strong indicator of future relevance. People will still care about the IP in 20 years and therefore collectors follow. Edited November 7, 2019 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 14 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said: Ah yes, I see. I misread it, I thought he was listing off conflicts he saw, not laying them out. Sorry about that! Bronty did the same thing above, too, and I missed it . I blame Jonas LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplodedHamster | 404 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Don’t forget the Sonic movie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty | 187 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, ExplodedHamster said: Don’t forget the Sonic movie! Oh Sega! That one doesn't look so promising. The mario movie is by the Illumination people though. They make A+ movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sign Collector Guy | 334 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I just keep getting a weird vibe a guy named Jeff Meyer is listed on the Wata SEC filing, if its the same Jeff Meyer who owns Go Collect and bought the “Carolina” collection and NA and is selling that collection on Clink and HA. Am I over reading into it? Or does it feel like a big conflict of interest. Maybe just a different Jeff Meyer. Gut check here people. Now Go Collect is sponsoring video game conventions. I totally get the capitalist fervor. Gotta respect the hustle! Maybe someone with better knowledge of corporate structure and such can educate me. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1711064/000171106418000002/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinusWorlds | 193 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I’m really tired of hearing about this resealed Jaws. It clearly freaking calls out it’s a reseal from a third-party. It’s on the damn label. Why not just ask Kenneth or Deniz what they are referring to? Seriously. All this while VGA authenticates an Altered Beast with a PHOTOCOPIED cover, has sticker sealed games rejected as opened when they weren’t, marks games as Q when they are frankensteined and/or have the wrong pieces. But that’s all okay, right? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not. I’m not even trying to dog on VGA as I like them and I love their customer service, but to repeatedly put Wata on blast for something that was clearly noted is beyond absurd. Companies makes mistakes, even grading companies when the mistake can have a significant monetary value. But, repeatedly calling out one mistake that had an obvious notation of a reseal is petty, at best. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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