"Cheating" When Playing Games

[fcgamer | 4,737]

I'm not talking about Game Genie or anything like that, rather doing something such as in Mega Man 2, using Flash Man's Time Stopper to stop the beams in Quick Man, or the "2" item to skip over the disappearing blocks in Heat Man's stage. What about using Alucard to fly to the top of the mountain in Castlevania III, or over the pendulums in Dracula's castle? What about exploiting the points leveling up system in Double Dragon, taking a legitimate short cut in one of the Mario Kart games, or spamming a weapon (Metal Blades, holy water?)

I'm just wondering what everyone thinks to such "legit" shenanigans when playing games. Generally, I will try to learn how to do something the "proper" way, but then after learning and doing it that way, I don't mind cheating in some situations, as the years go on, stress goes up, and actual play time gets shorter. How about everyone else?

[Gloves | 11,807]

It's in the game, it's fair game. Half the fun a lot of the time is finding ways to be OP when you "shouldn't" be able to conventionally. 

[spacepup | 2,405]

I think it depends on your own personal preference.  For example, speedrunners use "cheats" and glitches all the time to accomplish their goals, and it is still super fun to watch. 

For me, it really depends on the game and how much it breaks it.  Some RPGs have item duplication glitches that effectively break the game and remove all challenge.  I'd choose not to do that personally, just so I enjoy the game more.  If others want to, that is their prerogative of course.

I also know many people who try to play through 'legit' the first time, but then subsequent playthroughs, anything is fair game.  So I think it just depends on where you are in the game, how many times you've played it, what your goals are, and what your preferences are.

[Estil | 1,265]

30 minutes ago, Gloves said:

It's in the game

 

[Webhead123 | 687]

As a huge fan of the "immersive sim" genre, one of the core tenets of that style of game design is creating "emergent game play" through putting tools and systems in front of the player and allowing them to find creative solutions. Things like bypassing threats in MM2 or exploiting level-ups in DD are very primitive forms of that and I think they lead to great discoveries and experiences for the player. So, I welcome that kind of thing and will usually keep my eyes open for it. While I won't exploit them every time I play a certain game, knowing that they're out there is fun.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Webhead123

[phart010 | 1,708]

I don’t think it’s cheating in the objective sense. They put these things in the game for you to discover and exploit. 
 

Maybe a speed runner might make up some rules about what is and isn’t allowed in a run.. 

[fcgamer | 4,737]

19 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Maybe a speed runner might make up some rules about what is and isn’t allowed in a run.. 

And then we'll make up other rules to "justify" whether that rule should be followed or not, hahaha. 

[Ankos | 452]

I think anything goes except for in-game cheats (Metroid: NARPASSWORD) and maybe things that are really blatant glitches (Pokemon RGBY: Mew Glitch). Normally people will do self imposed challenges if they view something as lame or cheese, but I don't think that makes those strategies cheating. With stuff that is sort of iffy on whether or not it is a glitch, I'd say it isn't cheating. For an example, Doc Bubble Man in Megaman 3 does not move if you stand on Rush Jet. He will just sit there and let you kill him

I don't know why he does that, but because it isn't 100% clear if it is an exploit or a glitch, I'd say I wouldn't count it as cheating. There's also glitches that are almost unavoidable in some games, so those can't be considered cheating either. For an example, every time a Pokemon experiences a stat change in Gen I, badge stat boosts reapply. In other words, getting growled at can make you stronger if you have enough badges. Pretty much unavoidable, so if that's cheating, then nobody beats Gen I legit

[DarkTone | 987]

The speedrunning Community love these exploits, and for some reason so do the developers. Seeing a fault or flaw in your own game isn't good. 

[DefaultGen | 5,415]

Lots of fast levels and bosses are made easy, sometimes trivial by pressing the pause button. It's just a button on the controller baby.

If I'm really stuck in a game I don't usually mind cheap strategies. When it feels like me vs. the developers and I find an unintended solution I still feel like I won because I beat their shitty game code. Most of your examples I just think are smart use of overpowered game mechanics. Buster-only Mega Man runs are cool but if you want to use all the crap the game gives you, go for it, that's why it's there.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

6 hours ago, Gloves said:

It's in the game, it's fair game. Half the fun a lot of the time is finding ways to be OP when you "shouldn't" be able to conventionally. 

This. Using an in game item to its maximum potential is perfectly fine IMO.

[AirVillain | 490]

7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I'm not talking about Game Genie or anything like that, rather doing something such as in Mega Man 2, using Flash Man's Time Stopper to stop the beams in Quick Man, or the "2" item to skip over the disappearing blocks in Heat Man's stage. What about using Alucard to fly to the top of the mountain in Castlevania III, or over the pendulums in Dracula's castle? What about exploiting the points leveling up system in Double Dragon, taking a legitimate short cut in one of the Mario Kart games, or spamming a weapon (Metal Blades, holy water?)

I'm just wondering what everyone thinks to such "legit" shenanigans when playing games. Generally, I will try to learn how to do something the "proper" way, but then after learning and doing it that way, I don't mind cheating in some situations, as the years go on, stress goes up, and actual play time gets shorter. How about everyone else?

I feel personally attacked.

Haha... I guess it all depends on the situation. Sometimes I care about the sanctity of the game and I will try to beat it "clean" or legit. Most times this is for my favourite games and all time classics: Contra, Super C, Double Dragon 2, SMB 1/2/3, etc.

But if it's just a game that I like, but want to see more of (because it's hard/I suck at it, etc.) I will concede and "cheat" in a variety of ways to experience the game. Ex. Amagon. I can only get to level 4-5 of Amagon and I ALWAYS fucking die.... so when I want to play it, I just throw in the Game Genie and smoke that shit. 

But sometimes using the in-game stuff can be cheating, most times not... 

Mega Man 2... spamming Metal Blade is not cheating. Using an item to get through: not cheating. Farming for 1-ups: cheating. Time stopper for Quick Man: not cheating.

Double Dragon - Using the bat trick to get points/all the power moves: cheating. I still do it because I can't get anywhere in the game otherwise and it's not fun without it. 

Konami Code for Contra: cheating.

Using The NES Advantage for shooters: Cheating, but I still won't play them without it. 

So it all depends what I'm doing. Sometimes I cheat, but I just don't give a fuck.

If I'm trying to do something serious like beat a game legitimately/get a high score, then one MUST abide by the sanctity of the game. If not... WHY HAVE RULES AT ALL? WHY!?!?!

 

19 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

This. Using an in game item to its maximum potential is perfectly fine IMO.

Even in DD2 when you can max out your power moves using the baseball bat trick? Or farming for lives in Mega Man 2/others? 

Edited July 7, 2023 by AirVillain

[RH | 4,935]

If it’s a game in the NES competition and the exploit isn’t explicitly blocked in the rules then anything goes.

[mbd39 | 2,026]

It depends on the game and how cheap the exploit is. I understand avoiding outright glitches in order to have a more legit win, such as avoiding the pause glitch in Mega Man.  I don't think that employing overpowered weapons that the game gives you is cheating in any sense, so e.g. Castlevania holy water is fine unless you're doing a challenge run.

There's a lot of this kind of thing in Battletoads such as the shortcut in Karnath's Lair, being immune to missiles when at the bottom of the screen in Volkmire's Inferno, punching to stay in place in the underwater part of Terra Tubes, pause abuse in Clinger Winger, etc. But they only make an extremely hard game a bit more fair for the player so it never feels like cheating.

I usually try to beat games as they're intended and avoid too much cheese. But it really does depend.

 

 

[mbd39 | 2,026]

1 hour ago, AirVillain said:

I feel personally attacked ...

I don't like the baseball bat trick in DD1. I just punch enemies earlier on to get more hearts  so that I have the elbow when I need it.

IMO, Contra is way more fun without the code because you actually learn how to play rather than brute force your way through by burning lives. Feels so much more rewarding. I think the reason why Contra seems so hard to people is that everyone uses the code and they never learn the game. It's not that hard. Although for total casuals and those who lack the skills, it can be more fun with the code, especially in a co-op setting 

 

 

 

 

[JamesRobot | 5,810]

[Tulpa | 3,526]

9 hours ago, phart010 said:

Maybe a speed runner might make up some rules about what is and isn’t allowed in a run.. 

Well, speedrunning is more dictated by practical matters rather than anyone making things up, at least in that community.

Theres' "any %", which means get to the ending as fast as possible, using any exploit. Which is why you see insane "SMW in 4 minutes" stuff. They find the way to trigger the end screen. That's pretty straightforward.

100% speedrunning can depend on the game, but usually there's a consensus, like the 96 Exit runs in SMW.

TAS runs are usually their own category, too.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Tulpa

[fox | 1,668]

That’s called cheese

You are cheeseing not cheating

[Ankos | 452]

4 hours ago, DarkTone said:

The speedrunning Community love these exploits, and for some reason so do the developers. Seeing a fault or flaw in your own game isn't good. 

I can sort of see why a developer might find people exploiting glitches endearing. It means people took the time to look at your game under a microscope and see things that you didn't even know were there just because they cared that much about it. Now if the glitch just happens to random people who are just trying to play the game normally, that's less good

[JamesRobot | 5,810]

8 hours ago, Ankos said:

For an example, Doc Bubble Man in Megaman 3 does not move if you stand on Rush Jet. He will just sit there and let you kill him

[Tanooki | 4,943]

When it's a legit cheat like Dave there said in the first post, it's by design and intended by design -- it's all good, it's in the rule book basically.

When it's an accident left into games that someone figures out, shares, and then is abused to ruin a game on/offline much like the snaking crap in Mario Kart DS that even Nintendo at one rate kind of begged people not to do, it should be banned from any legit play, and should be encouraged by fair players to drop from matches from those who exploit the glitch/design flaw.

I also don't consider published codes intentionally left into the game, whether it's the famous Konami code, the Capcom screen button/dpad combo to turn it into SF2CE more or less on SNES, or the random passwords people figured out or Nintendo dumped in NP or whatever with Metroid and Kid Icarus.  It's not cheating, it was made public, it's fair game, or they would have either patched it out/removed it.

[Hammerfestus | 3,871]

Of course legitimate in-game tricks are fair.

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[Ankos | 452]

12 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

When it's an accident left into games that someone figures out, shares, and then is abused to ruin a game on/offline much like the snaking crap in Mario Kart DS that even Nintendo at one rate kind of begged people not to do, it should be banned from any legit play, and should be encouraged by fair players to drop from matches from those who exploit the glitch/design flaw.

I didn't know there was snaking in Mario Kart. If it works the same way as it works in F-Zero GX I would say it is more of an unforeseen result of multiple mechanics working normally. Vehicles have a speed stat that determines how fast they can go on a straightaway, and an acceleration stat that determines how fast they can reach top speed on straightaways, as well as a speed boost while turning for better control. Rapidly turning back and forth allows the player to accumulate a larger speed boost than intended, but technically the mechanic is working how it should. In theory it would be something that people experience to a small extent during normal play, but not to a noticeable degree

In a competitive setting I can see why players would want to gentlemen to limit it as much as possible, but I don't think it is cheating to 100% a game doing that

In the MM3 video I showed earlier there is another rush jet exploit that pretty much everyone who has used Rush Jet in that game has experience. Rush Jet consumes no energy unless you are standing on Rush in that game, so any time you jump you have conserved energy. Should the player choose to, they can mash the jump button and use rush jet for incredibly long lengths of time. That would be an unintended exploit, but its just the rules of the game working normally, so its not really cheating

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

In the Mega Man example, I would call that using the mechanics of the game to their full potential.  How using an in game item the way it was designed to be used could even be considered cheating is beyond me.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

14 hours ago, AirVillain said:

I feel personally attacked.

Haha... I guess it all depends on the situation. Sometimes I care about the sanctity of the game and I will try to beat it "clean" or legit. Most times this is for my favourite games and all time classics: Contra, Super C, Double Dragon 2, SMB 1/2/3, etc.

But if it's just a game that I like, but want to see more of (because it's hard/I suck at it, etc.) I will concede and "cheat" in a variety of ways to experience the game. Ex. Amagon. I can only get to level 4-5 of Amagon and I ALWAYS fucking die.... so when I want to play it, I just throw in the Game Genie and smoke that shit. 

But sometimes using the in-game stuff can be cheating, most times not... 

Mega Man 2... spamming Metal Blade is not cheating. Using an item to get through: not cheating. Farming for 1-ups: cheating. Time stopper for Quick Man: not cheating.

Double Dragon - Using the bat trick to get points/all the power moves: cheating. I still do it because I can't get anywhere in the game otherwise and it's not fun without it. 

Konami Code for Contra: cheating.

Using The NES Advantage for shooters: Cheating, but I still won't play them without it. 

So it all depends what I'm doing. Sometimes I cheat, but I just don't give a fuck.

If I'm trying to do something serious like beat a game legitimately/get a high score, then one MUST abide by the sanctity of the game. If not... WHY HAVE RULES AT ALL? WHY!?!?!

 

Even in DD2 when you can max out your power moves using the baseball bat trick? Or farming for lives in Mega Man 2/others? 

The baseball bat trick in Double Dragon is a glitch, so I'd say that one is a bit suspect. Farming lives like in Mega Man 2 isn't really cheating since the enemies drop them, but it's still kinda lazy.