Movie Debate #106: Looper

[Reed Rothchild | 9,521]

[Gloves | 11,776]

Never seen it.

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

Really fuckin good.  I don't think it quite sneaks into the all-time favorites but it's definitely Bruce Willis' second best time travel movie.

[a3quit4s | 4,096]

I gave it a 6. I like and will watch if I’m flipping channels and nothing else is on. Never recommended it to anyone

[Sumez | 2,949]

I've seen it, but I feel unable to give it any kind of convincing rating, because it barely left any impression. I remember the plot, but I don't remember caring about anything that happens 

[glazball | 168]

Yea, pretty forgettable.  We jokingly called it Loop Hard.  5/10

[Brickman | 3,983]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

I've seen it, but I feel unable to give it any kind of convincing rating, because it barely left any impression. I remember the plot, but I don't remember caring about anything that happens 

Agreed. My feelings too. 

[G-type | 2,480]

I remember liking it. Sci-fi set on a farm.

Edited January 2, 2023 by G-type

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

Never seen it.

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

Me and a friend of mine just watched it about a month ago, and we both really really enjoyed it. Great cast, great directing, great acting, great cinematography, and the concept is unique. I'd probably go with an 8, though it's bordering on a 9.

This scene is one of my favorite scenes in any time travel movie, and is actually what convinced me to watch the movie. I saw this scene before I saw the movie itself, and I was intrigued enough by what was going on here that I decided to watch the whole thing, wanted to get the context behind what was going on and see what else the film was about. (Spoilers, but it happens fairly early on in the film and doesn't have a huge bearing on the main plot)

Spoiler

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

7/10. I saw this one in theaters and thought it was really good on initial viewing. However, after I left the theater and thought more about the plot, I started to realize it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Time travel is always tough, but consistency is key. I do think it's a cool movie that deserves a watch, but I feel like it falls apart on repeat viewings.

[Link | 2,709]

I enjoyed it well. Would have to watch it again to say more than that. I'm not opposed to doing so. I remember it being a unique concept as ZF alludes to. I give it a 7.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Link

[Reed Rothchild | 9,521]

2 hours ago, DoctorEncore said:

7/10. I saw this one in theaters and thought it was really good on initial viewing. However, after I left the theater and thought more about the plot, I started to realize it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Time travel is always tough, but consistency is key. I do think it's a cool movie that deserves a watch, but I feel like it falls apart on repeat viewings.

I think that's why they even call it out in the movie.  "Don't worry about the hard science of it."  Just enjoy the story. That was my interpretation anyway.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Nearly a decade ago, I made this play in Cards Against Humanity and inadvertently described the movie. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Okay movie until the shitty "I'll do this one thing and it will solve everything" ending that made no fucking sense and actually solved nothing.  If they could fix the ending it would be a solid 7.

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

7 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Okay movie until the shitty "I'll do this one thing and it will solve everything" ending that made no fucking sense and actually solved nothing.  If they could fix the ending it would be a solid 7.

I'm surprised, out of everything that happens in the movie, that was what you honed in on as not making sense, haha. Honestly that was one of the parts in the movie that made the most sense to me. How come it didn't make sense to you when you saw it? Would be curious to know why you thought that.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

12 hours ago, ZeldaFreak said:

I'm surprised, out of everything that happens in the movie, that was what you honed in on as not making sense, haha. Honestly that was one of the parts in the movie that made the most sense to me. How come it didn't make sense to you when you saw it? Would be curious to know why you thought that.

I can't really do that without spoiling everything, but I'll ask you this: have you ever seen a time travel movie that didn't have gaping plot holes that were so wide you could drive a train through them?  Rewatch the movie and ask yourself exactly what his final action solves...

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I can't really do that without spoiling everything

That's the point of spoilering things, like so: (Spoilers ahead, for those who haven't seen it, obviously)

Spoiler

I figured we could have a little discussion about the ending, and just make sure it's all contained in spoilers like this, so we can still talk about it without worrying about spoiling things for those who haven't seen it. I very recently watched the movie (and actually rewatched the final few scenes and the ending after your comment to refresh my memory) and I'm honestly not sure why things didn't make sense to you, which is why I asked. There are definitely things in the movie you can pick apart and that, upon scrutiny, may not make complete sense, same as many time travel plots, but for me the ending was not one of those things. At the very least, it was internally consistent with how time travel was established to work within the boundaries of the movie, and it appeared to solve the whole thing with Cid becoming the Rainmaker (POSSIBLY, they do leave some room there that Cid could still become the Rainmaker regardless, which I thought was pretty clever, personally.)

That was why I asked you about your thoughts on the ending, because it made complete sense to me, so I'm confused and curious about why it didn't make any sense to you, I'd like to know why.

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

29 minutes ago, ZeldaFreak said:

That's the point of spoilering things, like so: (Spoilers ahead, for those who haven't seen it, obviously)

  Hide contents

 

 

Spoiler

I haven't seen the movie since it came out, so I'm pretty hazy, but I remember wondering how exactly does killing himself stop Cid from becoming the rainmaker, when all you do is affect your own future existence in real time (according to the rules of the movie)?  Again, I'd have to see the movie once more to be able to actually argue about it's shortcomings properly...

 

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Rewatch the movie and ask yourself exactly what his final action solves...

I really dig the ending.

Spoiler

He essentially closes his loop (which he failed to do previously) for the salvation of everyone else and resolves everything.  He realizes he's a piece of shit murderer and every meaningful relationship he's had is corrupted by his presence.  The mom lives, the kid isn't traumatized by his mother's death and avoids becoming the rainmaker, and his future wife doesn't get killed due to his involvement with the syndicate.  Innocence is preserved.  It's a fantastically optimistic ending juxtaposed with the spectacular tragedy for the protagonist.  Particularly considering his own sacrifice includes sacrificing his wife's shot at true love and happiness.  

 

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

  Hide contents

I haven't seen the movie since it came out, so I'm pretty hazy, but I remember wondering how exactly does killing himself stop Cid from becoming the rainmaker, when all you do is affect your own future existence in real time (according to the rules of the movie)?  Again, I'd have to see the movie once more to be able to actually argue about it's shortcomings properly...

 

Spoiler

Well, from what we understand of the plot, Cid seeing his mother die is the final nail in the coffin that causes him to eventually become the Rainmaker. In the final scene, Old Joe is about to kill Cid's mother, thus directly causing Cid to become the Rainmaker, and Young Joe is too far away to be able to kill Old Joe before he does so. So, if Young Joe kills himself, Old Joe ceases to exist, therefore Cid's mother doesn't die in front of him, hopefully preventing Cid from becoming the Rainmaker. That's really the main gist of it and the logic behind why he chose to kill himself. That was why I was kinda confused about why you were saying it didn't make sense, it's actually one of the more straight forward elements of the plot.

Now, beyond that, as I alluded to, they do actually leave some room for Cid to still become the Rainmaker regardless. His jaw is still injured, and we know that the Rainmaker has a prosthetic jaw, and if memory serves, Cid accidentally killed who he thought was his real "mother," Sara's sister, when he was much younger, and we know that the Rainmaker sees his mother die. So, even with all Joe does, Cid still likely ends up with a prosthetic jaw, and he still did "see his mother" die, that being Sara's sister who was taking care of him at the time. So, even though they do lead you to believe (and I do believe) that Cid doesn't become the Rainmaker, they still leave juuust enough room there that he could still, in the end, become the Rainmaker even with everything that happened. Which again, I personally liked since while it's a happy ending on the surface, there's still a little bit of ambiguity there since the events still somewhat line up with what we know about what causes Cid to become the Rainmaker.

 

[TDIRunner | 2,734]

Never saw it. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

1 hour ago, ZeldaFreak said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Well, from what we understand of the plot, Cid seeing his mother die is the final nail in the coffin that causes him to eventually become the Rainmaker. In the final scene, Old Joe is about to kill Cid's mother, thus directly causing Cid to become the Rainmaker, and Young Joe is too far away to be able to kill Old Joe before he does so. So, if Young Joe kills himself, Old Joe ceases to exist, therefore Cid's mother doesn't die in front of him, hopefully preventing Cid from becoming the Rainmaker. That's really the main gist of it and the logic behind why he chose to kill himself. That was why I was kinda confused about why you were saying it didn't make sense, it's actually one of the more straight forward elements of the plot.

Now, beyond that, as I alluded to, they do actually leave some room for Cid to still become the Rainmaker regardless. His jaw is still injured, and we know that the Rainmaker has a prosthetic jaw, and if memory serves, Cid accidentally killed who he thought was his real "mother," Sara's sister, when he was much younger, and we know that the Rainmaker sees his mother die. So, even with all Joe does, Cid still likely ends up with a prosthetic jaw, and he still did "see his mother" die, that being Sara's sister who was taking care of him at the time. So, even though they do lead you to believe (and I do believe) that Cid doesn't become the Rainmaker, they still leave juuust enough room there that he could still, in the end, become the Rainmaker even with everything that happened. Which again, I personally liked since while it's a happy ending on the surface, there's still a little bit of ambiguity there since the events still somewhat line up with what we know about what causes Cid to become the Rainmaker.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, that's a major stretch to me that someone who is literally on the cusp of becoming something will somehow not become it for the entire rest of his life because the first event that put him over the edge didn't happen?!?  Like, nothing else will ever bother him for the entire rest of his life and he'll just be super happy and whatnot?  Come on, man!  At absolute best, the action of the protagonist killing himself put off Cid becoming the Rainmaker for some undisclosed amount of time.  It did not change Cid's personality; it did not change his propensity to react in certain ways to the world around him; it did not change his innate character one iota.  The real solution would have been to find a way to kill Cid, because there was nothing within the ending presented that could possibly make me personally believe that that kid would not some day become the Rainmaker regardless.  As such, the ending is a copout and fails completely, in my eyes...

 

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

3 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

  Hide contents

Yeah, that's a major stretch to me that someone who is literally on the cusp of becoming something will somehow not become it for the entire rest of his life because the first event that put him over the edge didn't happen?!?  Like, nothing else will ever bother him for the entire rest of his life and he'll just be super happy and whatnot?  Come on, man!  At absolute best, the action of the protagonist killing himself put off Cid becoming the Rainmaker for some undisclosed amount of time.  It did not change Cid's personality; it did not change his propensity to react in certain ways to the world around him; it did not change his innate character one iota.  The real solution would have been to find a way to kill Cid, because there was nothing within the ending presented that could possibly make me personally believe that that kid would not some day become the Rainmaker regardless.  As such, the ending is a copout and fails completely, in my eyes...

 

Spoiler

Yeah, saying all that is more of a stretch than anything the movie does IMO, haha. Nobody said his life is suddenly gonna be all sunshine and rainbows after that, he's still gonna have a difficult life ahead of him.

You forget that Cid is a kid, when things like that happen to a kid, it has drastic consequences to the person they become later on in life. If Cid was like, maybe a teen by that point in the movie I might agree honestly, but he's a really young child, like 5 or maybe 6 at the latest? Events like that happening to you at that age have massive ramifications on your personality later on. And it's not just that his mother didn't die thanks to Young Joe, it's also that now his mother is there to support him and try to raise him throughout the rest of his youth and be there for him as long as she's alive, rather than being completely alone like he would've been if she had died. THAT is a massive, massive difference, especially as a child, I don't see how you could possibly claim otherwise. It's not just the fact of her dying in front of him that's the problem, the real problem is everything that happens after she dies, the fact that he's left completely alone and all of these horrible things he's experienced are just left to fester in his mind, with nobody to turn to and nobody to support him. Since his mother doesn't die, now he'll have someone to turn to who supports him, which again, especially as a kid, makes a world of difference.

And it's not necessarily important that he becomes a completely different person or anything, that doesn't need to happen, he might likely end up being a similar person regardless. What's important is that he, specifically, doesn't become the Rainmaker and start closing all the loops in the future, which is a pretty specific chain of events. As long as that very particular thing doesn't happen, then at the end of the day, Young Joe accomplished what he was trying to do by committing suicide. I mean, we can only hope he ends up living a somewhat happier life now that he has a parental figure in his life, but at the bare minimum, if he doesn't become the Rainmaker then we're good. Again though, while it's a happy ending on the surface, since it's loosely implied that he doesn't become the Rainmaker, things are still relatively up in the air. So honestly, if you prefer the interpretation that Cid becomes the Rainmaker anyway, that totally works, it fits with the plot of the movie, and there's nothing explicitly saying he doesn't despite everything that Young Joe did. There's room for interpretation in the ending, which is one of many reasons why I like it.

The ending works completely fine to me, if anything I was actually, admittedly, kind of losing interest a bit with the whole Cid stuff, but the ending brought it around for me, especially after thinking about it and realizing it's more ambiguous than I initially thought.

...Also, let's be honest, the REAL copout would've been Old Joe being like "Oh no, what am I doing, killing a kid just to try and save my wife? I can't do this..." and giving up right at the end, only for Old Joe and Young Joe to somehow come to terms with each other. I was TERRIFIED the movie was gonna go in that direction during much of that final scene, like, Old Joe giving up and not actually going through with killing Cid's mother, so I was very relieved to see they didn't do that honestly, hahaha.

 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

16 hours ago, ZeldaFreak said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yeah, saying all that is more of a stretch than anything the movie does IMO, haha. Nobody said his life is suddenly gonna be all sunshine and rainbows after that, he's still gonna have a difficult life ahead of him.

You forget that Cid is a kid, when things like that happen to a kid, it has drastic consequences to the person they become later on in life. If Cid was like, maybe a teen by that point in the movie I might agree honestly, but he's a really young child, like 5 or maybe 6 at the latest? Events like that happening to you at that age have massive ramifications on your personality later on. And it's not just that his mother didn't die thanks to Young Joe, it's also that now his mother is there to support him and try to raise him throughout the rest of his youth and be there for him as long as she's alive, rather than being completely alone like he would've been if she had died. THAT is a massive, massive difference, especially as a child, I don't see how you could possibly claim otherwise. It's not just the fact of her dying in front of him that's the problem, the real problem is everything that happens after she dies, the fact that he's left completely alone and all of these horrible things he's experienced are just left to fester in his mind, with nobody to turn to and nobody to support him. Since his mother doesn't die, now he'll have someone to turn to who supports him, which again, especially as a kid, makes a world of difference.

And it's not necessarily important that he becomes a completely different person or anything, that doesn't need to happen, he might likely end up being a similar person regardless. What's important is that he, specifically, doesn't become the Rainmaker and start closing all the loops in the future, which is a pretty specific chain of events. As long as that very particular thing doesn't happen, then at the end of the day, Young Joe accomplished what he was trying to do by committing suicide. I mean, we can only hope he ends up living a somewhat happier life now that he has a parental figure in his life, but at the bare minimum, if he doesn't become the Rainmaker then we're good. Again though, while it's a happy ending on the surface, since it's loosely implied that he doesn't become the Rainmaker, things are still relatively up in the air. So honestly, if you prefer the interpretation that Cid becomes the Rainmaker anyway, that totally works, it fits with the plot of the movie, and there's nothing explicitly saying he doesn't despite everything that Young Joe did. There's room for interpretation in the ending, which is one of many reasons why I like it.

The ending works completely fine to me, if anything I was actually, admittedly, kind of losing interest a bit with the whole Cid stuff, but the ending brought it around for me, especially after thinking about it and realizing it's more ambiguous than I initially thought.

...Also, let's be honest, the REAL copout would've been Old Joe being like "Oh no, what am I doing, killing a kid just to try and save my wife? I can't do this..." and giving up right at the end, only for Old Joe and Young Joe to somehow come to terms with each other. I was TERRIFIED the movie was gonna go in that direction during much of that final scene, like, Old Joe giving up and not actually going through with killing Cid's mother, so I was very relieved to see they didn't do that honestly, hahaha.

 

 

Spoiler

Fair enough, man.  I just don't buy the whole "if you could change a few things from Jeffery Dahmer's childhood then he won't grow up to kill and eat people" philosophy.  I also am not a fan of the hokey Back to the Future schtick of making people disappear in real time based on what's happening on screen.  There are so many problems with the whole time travel aspect that you could literally pick apart the plot for days - and that goes for pretty much every time travel movie ever made.  If the  ending of Looper worked for you, then hey, that's great!  But for me the ending turned a slightly above average movie into trite Hollywood fluff with no real substance or message.

To each his own...