Movie Debate #106: Looper

[JamesRobot | 5,808]

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

 

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Fair enough, man.  I just don't buy the whole "if you could change a few things from Jeffery Dahmer's childhood then he won't grow up to kill and eat people" philosophy.  I also am not a fan of the hokey Back to the Future schtick of making people disappear in real time based on what's happening on screen.  There are so many problems with the whole time travel aspect that you could literally pick apart the plot for days - and that goes for pretty much every time travel movie ever made.  If the  ending of Looper worked for you, then hey, that's great!  But for me the ending turned a slightly above average movie into trite Hollywood fluff with no real substance or message.

To each his own...

 

So you just don't like time travel movies altogether.  Fair enough.

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

3 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

 

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Fair enough, man.  I just don't buy the whole "if you could change a few things from Jeffery Dahmer's childhood then he won't grow up to kill and eat people" philosophy.  I also am not a fan of the hokey Back to the Future schtick of making people disappear in real time based on what's happening on screen.  There are so many problems with the whole time travel aspect that you could literally pick apart the plot for days - and that goes for pretty much every time travel movie ever made.  If the  ending of Looper worked for you, then hey, that's great!  But for me the ending turned a slightly above average movie into trite Hollywood fluff with no real substance or message.

To each his own...

 

Spoiler

I mean, in all fairness, I would argue that IS true though. Many horrendously awful people would not have turned out to be horrendously awful if they were raised differently, or if certain events early in their life hadn't happened. Nobody is born evil, evil people most often end up that way as a direct result of the events of their childhood and teen years. I mean, I'm not an evil person or anything obviously, but I've not lived a particularly happy life, and that's as a direct result of several things that happened in my childhood. If things didn't play out quite the same way (down to, yes, a couple specific events I can pinpoint) I would've ended up being a much happier person later on. Again, I don't personally see how you could possibly deny that, that's not really a "philosophy," that just seems like an objective fact to me. But yeah, to each their own, we can agree to disagree, and either way we're starting to touch upon WAY deeper topics than the ending of a movie anyway, hahaha.

I just felt as though you were arguing it objectively didn't make sense when it seems more like the issue wasn't necessarily that the ending didn't make sense within the confines of the movie, it's just that it didn't really work for you personally, which is obviously fine, there's no piece of media out there that everyone likes. I just think it's always important to make a distinction between something objectively being bad, and it just not working for you personally. I always try to keep objective fact and subjective opinion separate, which is part of why I wanted to discuss it with you, I wanted to see which it was when it came to your thoughts on the ending. I do kinda agree with JR's take though, that it seems like you just aren't a big fan of time travel movies as a whole given what you said here, obviously a movie about time travel is going to have an ending that relates to time travel in some form or another, that's just kind of a given I feel.

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

Anyway, good discussion @Dr. Morbis, honestly really enjoyed that conversation we had even though we disagree on certain things. Those are always the best kinds of conversations I feel

On the topic of time travel movies though, if any of you ever feel like watching a movie about time travel that treats it as if it's a legitimate science, about as grounded as you could possibly ask for, check out Primer. I dunno if there's ever been a debate thread on it (probably not I'd imagine, not a ton of people have heard about it) but it's fairly low-budget and super super underrated, and it's very easy to find if you want to watch it. It's a very short watch but I personally found it super engaging, so I'd highly recommend it if anyone has even a remote interest in time travel as a plot point, and time travel being portrayed in about as "realistic" of a light as you could ask for. Won't go in to any more details than that since it's one of those movies that's sort of impossible to talk about in-depth without spoiling things. All I'll say is it's very dialogue-heavy, so don't go in to it expecting a ton of action like Looper or anything.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

3 minutes ago, ZeldaFreak said:

On the topic of time travel movies though, if any of you ever feel like watching a movie about time travel that treats it as if it's a  legitimate science, about as grounded as you could possibly ask for, check out Primer.

Primer is pretty good, but honestly, you can't go backwards in time without seriously peppering your plot with holes.  I actually think that Nolan's Interstellar is the movie that most closely deals with time travel in a legitimate scientific way, since it only deals with "travelling" forward in time, which is not really time travel at all, it just feels that way to those who don't understand the physics behind it...

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Primer is pretty good, but honestly, you can't go backwards in time without seriously peppering your plot with holes.  I actually think that Nolan's Interstellar is the movie that most closely deals with time travel in a legitimate scientific way, since it only deals with "travelling" forward in time, which is not really time travel at all, it just feels that way to those who don't understand the physics behind it...

...Interstellar? Huh? I mean, I do enjoy Interstellar a lot, but... like...

You have some very unique takes on time travel movies honestly, haha. Obviously that part is very scientific and grounded, yes, but there are parts of that movie that are faaar from scientific for sure.

Spoilers for Interstellar I guess, haha

Spoiler

I just find it odd that you point to that movie being accurate when it does also deal with going backwards in time, not just forwards, and you can argue it has many of the same problems other movies do in that regard. I obviously agree with your point on traveling "forwards" in time in the film, that part is absolutely as grounded as you could possibly ask for, but when he ends up in the Tesseract at the end, he starts messing with the past which brings up many of the same issues as other time travel plots (and brings up whole new issues with the whole "love" speech.) I mean, yes, it doesn't get in to paradoxes or alternate timelines or anything, since that's not the main focus of the movie, but it's still backwards time travel, which being realistic is more than likely straight up not possible anyway. Honestly I'd say I have more problems with the ending of Interstellar than even something like Looper (or Primer, for that matter.) But really, you just have to have a certain suspension of disbelief for these types of movies, if you spend the brainpower trying to pick everything apart you're not really accomplishing anything other than making it less enjoyable for yourself. But to be fair that's just my opinion since I'm not usually a particularly critical person of these things anyway, haha. I just watch these movies to have a good time and that's what usually happens, even if they have problems.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

39 minutes ago, ZeldaFreak said:

...Interstellar? Huh? I mean, I do enjoy Interstellar a lot, but... like...

You have some very unique takes on time travel movies honestly, haha. Obviously that part is very scientific and grounded, yes, but there are parts of that movie that are faaar from scientific for sure.

Spoilers for Interstellar I guess, haha

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I just find it odd that you point to that movie being accurate when it does also deal with going backwards in time, not just forwards, and you can argue it has many of the same problems other movies do in that regard. I obviously agree with your point on traveling "forwards" in time in the film, that part is absolutely as grounded as you could possibly ask for, but when he ends up in the Tesseract at the end, he starts messing with the past which brings up many of the same issues as other time travel plots (and brings up whole new issues with the whole "love" speech.) I mean, yes, it doesn't get in to paradoxes or alternate timelines or anything, since that's not the main focus of the movie, but it's still backwards time travel, which being realistic is more than likely straight up not possible anyway. Honestly I'd say I have more problems with the ending of Interstellar than even something like Looper (or Primer, for that matter.) But really, you just have to have a certain suspension of disbelief for these types of movies, if you spend the brainpower trying to pick everything apart you're not really accomplishing anything other than making it less enjoyable for yourself. But to be fair that's just my opinion since I'm not usually a particularly critical person of these things anyway, haha. I just watch these movies to have a good time and that's what usually happens, even if they have problems.

Spoiler

I'm not talking about the last part where he leaves the ship and goes into God mode and pushes the books and hears the other dude's voice and all that garbage.  Much like Looper, I hate the final little bit of Interstellar, but everything before the protagonist goes into God mode is incredibly accurate as far as implied time travel is concerned (ie: people aging differently relative to one another based on the situations that they are in).

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Dr. Morbis

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

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I'm not talking about the last part where he leaves the ship and goes into God mode and pushes the books and hears the other dude's voice and all that garbage.  Much like Looper, I hate the final little bit of Interstellar, but everything before the protagonist goes into God mode is incredibly accurate as far as implied time travel is concerned (ie: people aging differently relative to one another based on the situations that they are in).

 

Spoiler

Yeah, that much I of course agree with, that part is wonderfully done. I just thought it was kind of a strange example to bring up since we're mostly on the topic of traveling backwards in time rather than forwards, haha. Yeah, Interstellar does kind of jump the shark a bit at the end I feel. The whole "love" thing is the biggest problem I have with the ending (since I feel it starts to border on just not making sense at all, even within the confines of the movie's world,) but the other stuff I don't mind too much, even if I probably would've approached it differently. And the stuff AFTER the Tesseract (the actual ending ending) is great, I just think that's definitely the weakest part of the film.

 

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

Very glad the spoiler function exists, haha. Very useful tool it turns out

[JamesRobot | 5,808]

8 hours ago, ZeldaFreak said:

Primer

Word! Primer is probably my favorite modern movie (post 2000).  I'm a sucker for time travel movies in general though.  

[ZeldaFreak | 3,600]

2 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Word! Primer is probably my favorite modern movie (post 2000).  I'm a sucker for time travel movies in general though.  

Maybe more people have seen it than I thought, haha. It's not one of my favorite movies or anything, but yeah, if you're a fan of time travel in general, it's definitely a must watch I'd say.

[JamesRobot | 5,808]

6 minutes ago, ZeldaFreak said:

Maybe more people have seen it than I thought, haha. It's not one of my favorite movies or anything, but yeah, if you're a fan of time travel in general, it's definitely a must watch I'd say.

I don't really count as most people.  I worked at a music/movie store during the era.  I'd say none of my non-nerd friends are even aware of the movie.

Edited January 5, 2023 by JamesRobot

[Reed Rothchild | 9,550]

1 hour ago, ZeldaFreak said:

Maybe more people have seen it than I thought, haha. It's not one of my favorite movies or anything, but yeah, if you're a fan of time travel in general, it's definitely a must watch I'd say.

It was on the New Cult Canon, which helped spread word of mouth

https://letterboxd.com/wilkins/list/the-new-cult-canon/

https://www.avclub.com/primer-1798200028