Heritage Auctions Thread

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

24 minutes ago, Tyree_Cooper said:

who cares about the law, the law can be outsmarted in a million ways; that doesn't make some things acceptable. if karl's videos, which were not necessary to figure this one out, haven't convinced you those guys are running a scam ring at the expense of "normal" fans, gamers and collectors (whether used, new or sealed), then you are either profiting from the scam in some way, good for you, or you just don't want to see the problem.

@karljobstExhibit A as to what was taken from your first video and why the population report is and will continue to be important. It puts a significant hole in these kinds of theories, not that anyone will really care I suppose lol. There is a difference between “it’s all a scam” (again going back to your icon, which says SCAM in big red letters next to a verifiably real sale) and “people in X positions are inappropriately profiting.” It’s nuanced, but significant. As I mentioned, I don’t necessarily agree with all your arguments on the latter, but I definitely understand the conversation more. I think you do as well, as your comments here and elsewhere indicate. 

You can also, of course, see the element of populism and class warfare. It’s always made me uncomfortable on these forums, well before I ever bought a sealed game or owned a higher end item. It drove a lot people away from the old NA tbh. Reminds me of raucous political rallies, which are not really my thing.

Edited December 1, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[karljobst | 242]

54 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Isn't partnering with an auction company the exact way in which a new grading company would prove the concept and product? I think it's exactly how I'd wager most business owners would want to start, at least. I also think a problem you are also overlooking with VGA, beyond the fact they would not financially guarantee their accuracy or tamper proof cases, is the scale is just not something that is standard across collectibles, and it's not very, for lack of a better term, "exciting." Having near perfect games get an 85+ doesn't do it for a lot of people. And it's not really a changeable thing, given there was already a decade of games being encased. 

From everything I've heard and seen I totally believe that Wata produces a better product. However, the first and foremost job of a grading company is to provide accurate and consistent gradings. I don't believe an auction house like Heritage would or should partner with a brand new grading company that had no track record. It just makes absolutely no sense. At best, HA should have waited for a couple of years to establish that Wata were legit and it had credibility.

As experts you might be able to tell that a case is good and is a better product, but I don't think that's enough to warrant this relationship unless there was something less than reputable going on. When you partner this with the conflicts of interest, lying to the public, Halperin's personal stake, I just can't believe this is anything other than people with power using their own companies as tool for there own profit.

[karljobst | 242]

19 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

@karljobstExhibit A as to what was taken from your first video and why the population report is and will continue to be important. It puts a significant hole in these kinds of theories, not that anyone will really care I suppose lol. There is a difference between “it’s all a scam” (again going back to your icon, which says SCAM in big red letters next to a verifiably real sale) and “people in X positions are inappropriately profiting.” It’s nuanced, but significant. As I mentioned, I don’t necessarily agree with all your arguments on the latter, but I definitely understand the conversation more. I think you do as well, as your comments here and elsewhere indicate. 

You can also, of course, see the element of populism and class warfare. It’s always made me uncomfortable on these forums, well before I ever bought a sealed game or owned a higher end item. It drove a lot people away from the old NA tbh. Reminds me of raucous political rallies, which are not really my thing.

I agree that my first video sold that the entire market was a scam etc. I don't believe that to be the case now (though I totally did at the time). I wonder though if I could have done the video a different way and gotten a similar response. I think I could have, and if I were to do it again I'd focus way more on just the select few people who I take issue with.

Also side note. The only reason I even mentioned NA, or the database was because of Jeff Meyer's connection with Wata. I honestly don't care that much about what happened to NA. Things are just escalating now because Jeff totally deflected that point from the first video so I felt compelled to bring it up again.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

1 hour ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

@Null Seth get your butt in here 

Ehh no thanks. Karl is after the truth and what he feels is right. Seth is after his own agenda. 
 

My favorite part about some of this tho is my first interaction with Seth was when he posted his “pop report” for sale stating “pop reports will never be released”. My response was “yes they will, and what you’re selling isn’t a pop report”. For whatever reason that completely set him off. Even tho I said his data was valuable and worth the price of admission. Didn’t matter. I was the enemy and that’s all there was to it. Despite me now being proven right on both counts. 
 

Despite Karl and I disagreeing on some content he’s been nothing but cordial, polite and professional to me. He’s a reasonable person and I understand his motive. I enjoy our conversations very much. I have yet to have a reasonable discussion with Seth save for a couple of private messages not involving games. He’s clearly a very bright guy, but maybe too ummm…volatile?

Edited December 1, 2021 by MinusWorlds

[OptOut | 8,892]

@ExplodedHamster it's not exactly class warfare tho, is it? You got a small but powerful group trying it's darnedest to wrench video game collecting into something they can repackage and repurpose for profit, receiving justified push back from a community who can see through bullshit and hype for what it is.

It's the same small number of faces turning up in media appearances, and hype-pumping news articles, backed by the same companies and the the same interests over and over again, all being cheered on by a similarly small group of loyal customers, sycophants and resellers, ALL of whom happen to be on first name basis with one and other.

People who are friends with WATA founders, or who know people who are friends with them, joining in on the sealed market feeding frenzy while there's blood in the water.

It's such a microscopic community really at that level, much as it always has been, you cannot deny that. And yet you guys are the tail that's trying to wag the dog of the greater videogame collecting hobby. THAT is what is rubbing people the wrong way!

People who know what they're doing in this hobby know to steer WELL clear of graded game collecting, APART from selling INTO the hype while the getting is good and making off with the spoils while they can.

I believe VGS to be pretty representative of a certain kind of long-time, old school video game collector, and how many of us, really, have fallen for the hype? I am assuming it is FAR fewer than the WATA boys, Jim Halpern and all of you cheerleader squady types were expecting in the beginning, huh?

 

Basically, it's a little old boys club with an outsized influence over the conversation about "our hobby", but it doesn't actually reflect the wider interests and experiences of people who have been enjoying retro game collecting for all these years, and people DON'T wanna hear about it, we DISAGREE that this is what the hobby needs and what it should prioritize.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

9 minutes ago, karljobst said:

From everything I've heard and seen I totally believe that Wata produces a better product. However, the first and foremost job of a grading company is to provide accurate and consistent gradings. I don't believe an auction house like Heritage would or should partner with a brand new grading company that had no track record. It just makes absolutely no sense. At best, HA should have waited for a couple of years to establish that Wata were legit and it had credibility.

As experts you might be able to tell that a case is good and is a better product, but I don't think that's enough to warrant this relationship unless there was something less than reputable going on. When you partner this with the conflicts of interest, lying to the public, Halperin's personal stake, I just can't believe this is anything other than people with power using their own companies as tool for there own profit.

So I think the first part here is probably fairly simple. Starting up a grading company is sophisticated and takes millions of dollars. In today's market, I don't really think there's an alternative approach to partnering with a major auction house that is viable. Prior to HA/WATA, the market was not large enough to support such a business venture. Ebay was insufficient, so WATA needed to take a gamble that games would take off at one of the higher end auction houses. VGA was able to have some success because they are just a branch of a pre-existing company. It was financially viable to enter as they did. 

Yes, there are smaller start ups attempting to start up now with much less funds, but the market was nowhere near as large in 2018 as it is now, and frankly I suspect all the smaller companies will die out. CGC is another story, but again they are similar to VGA anyway, in that this will just be an offshoot. 

4 minutes ago, karljobst said:

I agree that my first video sold that the entire market was a scam etc. I don't believe that to be the case now (though I totally did at the time). I wonder though if I could have done the video a different way and gotten a similar response. I think I could have, and if I were to do it again I'd focus way more on just the select few people who I take issue with.

Also side note. The only reason I even mentioned NA, or the database was because of Jeff Meyer's connection with Wata. I honestly don't care that much about what happened to NA. Things are just escalating now because Jeff totally deflected that point from the first video so I felt compelled to bring it up again.

Yup, I got that sense, and appreciate your confirming it. 

The NA thing wasn't really a comment on anything you said, more a bit of a tangent of mine. I will agree back Jonas that NA was far from a database, but I don't think that's really the focus so it's not terribly important to your overall argument. 

[Gulag Joe | 584]

"I don't believe an auction house like Heritage would or should partner with a brand new grading company that had no track record. It just makes absolutely no sense. At best, HA should have waited for a couple of years to establish that Wata were legit and it had credibility."

^That's the problem here- personal "belief". There is no law in the USA that says an auction house cannot partner with an authenticator. The free market decides if Wata is fit for the job, and the market has spoken with a very loud and stern voice that Wata is legit and they do have credibility.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

1 minute ago, OptOut said:

@ExplodedHamster it's not exactly class warfare tho, is it? You got a small but powerful group trying it's darnedest to wrench video game collecting into something they can repackage and repurpose for profit, receiving justified push back from a community who can see through bullshit and hype for what it is.

It's the same small number of faces turning up in media appearances, and hype-pumping news articles, backed by the same companies and the the same interests over and over again, all being cheered on by a similarly small group of loyal customers, sycophants and resellers, ALL of whom happen to be on first name basis with one and other.

People who are friends with WATA founders, or who know people who are friends with them, joining in on the sealed market feeding frenzy while there's blood in the water.

It's such a microscopic community really at that level, much as it always has been, you cannot deny that. And yet you guys are the tail that's trying to wag the dog of the greater videogame collecting hobby. THAT is what is rubbing people the wrong way!

People who know what they're doing in this hobby know to steer WELL clear of graded game collecting, APART from selling INTO the hype while the getting is good and making off with the spoils while they can.

I believe VGS to be pretty representative of a certain kind of long-time, old school video game collector, and how many of us, really, have fallen for the hype? I am assuming it is FAR fewer than the WATA boys, Jim Halpern and all of you cheerleader squady types were expecting in the beginning, huh?

 

Basically, it's a little old boys club with an outsized influence over the conversation about "our hobby", but it doesn't actually reflect the wider interests and experiences of people who have been enjoying retro game collecting for all these years, and people DON'T wanna hear about it, we DISAGREE that this is what the hobby needs and what it should prioritize.

You’re right the same names in the articles, interviews etc. was frustrating for me too. While I was sprinkled in some of those I felt we needed more diversity. Especially from those old-timers you mentioned. Man I’d love to have heard from Braveheart, Robin, or Blarky from the beginning of the uptick. From that regard things felt very artificial.

Like you said, it’s a small microscopic community. Everyone is going to know everyone. No real way to avoid that. So being on a first name basis with everyone should be expected. That’s not necessarily a sign of conspiracy or insider sketchiness it’s just a by-product of a small community. 
 

The vast majority of the new people I’ve met during the Wata timeline have been really great to get to know and talk with. A lot of them I’d put into the collector bucket too. They just have deep pockets. 

[OptOut | 8,892]

1 minute ago, MinusWorlds said:

You’re right the same names in the articles, interviews etc. was frustrating for me too. While I was sprinkled in some of those I felt we needed more diversity. Especially from those old-timers you mentioned. Man I’d love to have heard from Braveheart, Robin, or Blarky from the beginning of the uptick. From that regard things felt very artificial.

Like you said, it’s a small microscopic community. Everyone is going to know everyone. No real way to avoid that. So being on a first name basis with everyone should be expected. That’s not necessarily a sign of conspiracy or insider sketchiness it’s just a by-product of a small community. 
 

The vast majority of the new people I’ve met during the Wata timeline have been really great to get to know and talk with. A lot of them I’d put into the collector bucket too. They just have deep pockets. 

I think this is absolutely fine actually, for there to be people interested in collecting sealed games, for people to spend absolutely whatever they like on videogames, and for people even to buy games purely for speculation.

I think it's great if a new little group of collectors coming in from other hobbies want to collect games and "invest" in ways that seem totally strange to us, coming in with a totally new perspective and culture, it's interesting!

 

But, it must be admitted that a LOT of the ideas they are bringing into the video game collecting hobby are FLAWED in the sense that they don't reflect the reality of how game collecting has worked and how it continues to work for the vast majority of collectors.

Being told which games are rare, or why a certain game should be worth this much or what print is this and what variant is that, and tying almost EVERY conversation back down to the PROFIT motive and the VALUE...

It's a huge culture shock.

 

Combine that with the, as you say, TINY actual number of people in the buying space for those games... Many of whom are NOT engaged with anyone outside of that tiny little bubble of elites, spending small FORTUNES on games that they appear not really to understand, when for many of us the KNOWLEDGE and the UNDERSTANDING of the games has always been the key driver in our interest in these things...

Again it's not hard to see where the disagreements and disconnects between the two sides of the hobby have arisen, right?

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

55 minutes ago, OptOut said:

@ExplodedHamster it's not exactly class warfare tho, is it? You got a small but powerful group trying it's darnedest to wrench video game collecting into something they can repackage and repurpose for profit, receiving justified push back from a community who can see through bullshit and hype for what it is.

It's the same small number of faces turning up in media appearances, and hype-pumping news articles, backed by the same companies and the the same interests over and over again, all being cheered on by a similarly small group of loyal customers, sycophants and resellers, ALL of whom happen to be on first name basis with one and other.

People who are friends with WATA founders, or who know people who are friends with them, joining in on the sealed market feeding frenzy while there's blood in the water.

It's such a microscopic community really at that level, much as it always has been, you cannot deny that. And yet you guys are the tail that's trying to wag the dog of the greater videogame collecting hobby. THAT is what is rubbing people the wrong way!

People who know what they're doing in this hobby know to steer WELL clear of graded game collecting, APART from selling INTO the hype while the getting is good and making off with the spoils while they can.

I believe VGS to be pretty representative of a certain kind of long-time, old school video game collector, and how many of us, really, have fallen for the hype? I am assuming it is FAR fewer than the WATA boys, Jim Halpern and all of you cheerleader squady types were expecting in the beginning, huh?

 

Basically, it's a little old boys club with an outsized influence over the conversation about "our hobby", but it doesn't actually reflect the wider interests and experiences of people who have been enjoying retro game collecting for all these years, and people DON'T wanna hear about it, we DISAGREE that this is what the hobby needs and what it should prioritize.

I haven't really said a single thing about people who don't collect or invest in sealed games other than I think there's always been room for everyone to collect, and that I never really agreed with the constant argument that came up in every NA thread ever by the time of its end that one was ruining it for the other. For context, keep in mind I was a member of NA for about a decade and didn't really partake in higher end until the end, so I'm being consistent here. To me, it's far more the opposite: People not participating in higher end stuff seem to spend a lot of their time talking about those who do. That's the thing I have never really understood, it's just a focus on something you dislike over something you like. I've never gone into any other forum here or elsewhere and told people what to collect or how to collect it, so I don't really understand how I'm telling anyone else who game collectors are or what they should be etc. I love video games, in fact, and I spend a pretty decent amount of time watching streamers and conversing about the games themselves. I'm also the current leader on the Genesis completed games list in the Site Run Forum ;). 

As to the business, yes, I have been a collector for over a decade because it's my biggest passion. Yes, I thought I saw an opportunity to put the money we saved (neither my wife nor I came from money, so it was definitely not without risk) into a market I thought had tremendous upside and I would enjoy, and things went so crazy I just kept putting more money in from the profits and it snowballed. I wanted to try to make some money for the kids' education and fund the collection kinda thing and to have fun doing it. I also have an entrepreneurial side I never really explored because I was stuck in the rigid 9-5 play it safe life, but I love to get wrapped up in something (particularly competitive) and to hustle. 

What upsets me is all the stuff about it being a scam. I have no control over how people spend their money, and I take 100% umbrage to someone saying I am doing this and that (like I guess paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees to buy my own games?) when what I'm doing is buying stuff and sending it off for the market to decide. I also have defended some (though certainly not all) of the prices these games have gotten to because I 100% believed and have done my homework that these items are as hard to come by as they will show themselves to be over the next year as population reports continue to emerge. Additionally, it's important to include context of where collectibles in general have shot through the roof the past few years. Prices everywhere are insane, I mean someone just paid 2.5 million for something akin to a house in Minecraft! When you have something rare enough, it only takes 2 people for it to get out of hand quickly. If it's only 2, of course, it's quite possible that the next one could utterly collapse...or it could increase! You just never really know at that level. And more younger people are making big money off investments than ever, so there's more money to go around.  

I mean, honestly, you seem full of spite in all this. I've never tried to take the entire video game community any which way because I've never believed it was ever a one size fits all kind of thing. If you don't wanna hear about it, why do you spend so much time in this forum discussing it? Nobody is forcing you do be here. 

Edit - Maybe the spite is your "sharp tongue"

Edited December 1, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

27 minutes ago, OptOut said:

But, it must be admitted that a LOT of the ideas they are bringing into the video game collecting hobby are FLAWED in the sense that they don't reflect the reality of how game collecting has worked and how it continues to work for the vast majority of collectors.

Being told which games are rare, or why a certain game should be worth this much or what print is this and what variant is that, and tying almost EVERY conversation back down to the PROFIT motive and the VALUE...

It's a huge culture shock.

It's flawed because you say it's flawed. In an alternate timeline, it could just have easily evolved differently with, say, perfectly mint Mario 3 first print CIBs being more sought after than loose Stadium Events, and the numbers would justify it. There are so many different ways to categorize and view the insane amount of data that it's not surprising a new group of people could come in and re-define for themselves what is important and what isn't. In fact, many sealed and non-sealed collectors have valued the sorts of things people are discussing now for decades, just in smaller circles. It's also different with sealed, because there are nuances where something like a Sonic can be super common CIB, but hard to find sealed, and so on. 

Either way, I don't really understand why you cannot continue discussions with people you always have about what is rare and important to you and others can do so with what is important to them. I feel people create conflict here where none really needs to exist. 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[OptOut | 8,892]

3 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

I mean, honestly, you're pretty full of spite in all this. I've never tried to take the entire video game community any which way because I've never believed it was ever a one size fits all kind of thing. If you don't wanna hear about it, why do you spend so much time in this forum discussing it? Nobody is forcing you do be here. 

I have a sharp tongue and I know how to use it, but I wouldn't characterise my participation in these conversations as particularly spiteful. Overly hyperbolic here and there, yeah, and sarcastic, sure, but absolutely not malicious.

Seeing as you brought it up, I don't begrudge you your success, far from it, and I have always believed the sales in this market to be genuine, by and large, if sometimes opportunistic, exploitative and or ill-judged.

I have explained why I am here, quite explicitly across many different threads and discussions.

And, as you well know there are MANY people here pumping up the hype for graded game collecting that I have disagreements with, not only yourself. I understand that I am not being told how I should collect, nor being prevented from doing so, but I have every right to comment on the graded/sealed market and it's excesses as anyone else, REGARDLESS of any personal stake I may or may not have in it.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

4 minutes ago, OptOut said:

And, as you well know there are MANY people here pumping up the hype for graded game collecting that I have disagreements with, not only yourself. I understand that I am not being told how I should collect, nor being prevented from doing so, but I have every right to comment on the graded/sealed market and it's excesses as anyone else, REGARDLESS of any personal stake I may or may not have in it.

Of course you have a right to be here! I just don't understand why, on the one hand, you would say that people are forcing this conversation on you, yet, on the other, that you spend so much time seeking it. If you don't want to have the conversation, then why are you having it?

Again, don't take that as me saying gfto,  I'm not. I just don't really understand lol. 

As for the success thing, that's not really what I meant. It was more a backdrop of being sick of having people intimate I'm scamming anyone. I feel it's disrespectful to both me and the people who are choosing of their own free will to spend their own money on what they choose. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

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4 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Either way, I don't really understand why you cannot continue discussions with people you always have about what is rare and important to you and others can do so with what is important to them. I feel people create conflict here where none really needs to exist. 

Why can YOU not abide a dissenting opinion on the value of sealed and graded game collecting and the potential downside of relentless speculation?

I am perfectly free to express myself as I see fit, right here. I would like nothing MORE than to watch the sealed and graded market grow in a healthy and sustainable way, I have already explained that I find it fascinating.

And let's be clear, there really ISN'T a more glorious specimen of any video game than the most factory fresh, sealed examples, strictly in terms of the physical products that we all fetishize here!

 

But, someone spending 400k on a sonic one month and then a better one sells for 200k the next... A Mario 64 sells for a million and a half one month... Well, I mean you know what happened there don't you... 

I want to see appropriate, rational prices establish themselves sooner rather than later, I want a market that can be reliable and fair for buyer and seller!

And I don't want to keep getting told how much sense these prices are making, when patently the score is FAR from settled there!

 

Imagine how good it would be if someone like ME, who DOES collect sealed games and DOES spend thousands of dollars on video games each year, if someone like me felt comfortable buying a graded game I really liked once in a while, just for the little flare to my collection!

But I currently have ZERO confidence in the market and see NO value in what the market currently promotes and offers.

 

But maybe it's just because I buy games to keep, I only ever sell rarely, and when I do it's just doubles.

Perhaps you can answer this one for me, if you don't mind:

Should anyone NOT interested in value or the investment potential of video games participate in the graded market? 

Because honestly I think THAT is a big cultural difference in this conversation too, honestly.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

The market is volatile as hell at the high end, of course I agree with that lol. I don’t really think it’s any different than what happens in other collectibles markets, though I have always maintained that I believe populations are relatively low enough that it’s highly unlikely it’s all one giant bubble that collapses. There will be certain items that shoot up and down right now, but that’s not really abnormal in free markets that are growing rapidly. I’m glad we are starting to see pop reports, though I also understand the purpose in waiting some time to give a better picture. 
 

As to graded games, I absolutely believe people should have them just to collect and preserve, if that’s what they want. Of course I do. I have a number of games I keep for myself because I have large nostalgia or love of them and want to preserve them in their original form because it reminds me of when I went to buy them. I also understand it’s not for everybody, and I don’t begrudge anyone who hates the idea of it. To each their own.

 

[kell | 102]

54 minutes ago, OptOut said:

But, it must be admitted that a LOT of the ideas they are bringing into the video game collecting hobby are FLAWED in the sense that they don't reflect the reality of how game collecting has worked and how it continues to work for the vast majority of collectors.

People collect and buy for different reasons, there is no right way to collect. 
 

[tidaldreams | 654]

5 hours ago, karljobst said:

Unfortunately the video had to come out today because of sponsor obligations. Though I would have loved to talk more about the population report release as IMO it's likely a result (at least in part) to the public's reaction to my first video. I'm not sure how it would undercut anything I said. 

I would celebrate and encourage any positive actions.

i think the most important question is is your video gonna finally tank the market like your other video was supposed to???  coz then i'll be buying even more  

[Gulag Joe | 584]

1 hour ago, OptOut said:

But, it must be admitted that a LOT of the ideas they are bringing into the video game collecting hobby are FLAWED in the sense that they don't reflect the reality of how game collecting has worked and how it continues to work for the vast majority of collectors.

Meh, I play every NES game exactly like the Angry Video Game Nerd. However, just because one of those trash games like Stadium Events is "rare" doesn't mean I believe people should pay more money for that game. SE is a bigger pile of dogshit than almost any other NES game produced. So, to me, the way the "Old Guard" approached video game collecting, I see that as FLAWED. A junk game is a junk game. Just because you need it to complete a true NES set shouldn't make it a high priced game, but that's how early hobbyists viewed collecting NES. But ultimately, the game is still dogshit but people chose to pay a higher price for it because that is how they valued it 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Gulag Joe

[tbone3969 | 308]

10 minutes ago, tidaldreams said:

i think the most important question is is your video gonna finally tank the market like your other video was supposed to???  coz then i'll be buying even more  

I have been waiting for the bubble to burst for over a decade now.  There was/is always an active thread about this on here and NintendoAge.  Can't wait then I can actually afford to complete some sets.  Please let it be in 2022.  I am not getting any younger.

Edited December 1, 2021 by tbone3969

[DarkKobold | 196]

3 hours ago, MinusWorlds said:

Karl,

I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole too much on some of this, but Jonas (jonebone) does bring up some fair points. He’s also one of the most educated and knowledgeable collectors in our hobby. He has also been critical of Wata when he has issue with some of their practices. So he’s def not a Wata lemming either.

 

A simple view of his instagram also shows a pretty huge conflict of interest, however.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

12 minutes ago, DarkKobold said:

A simple view of his instagram also shows a pretty huge conflict of interest, however.

How so? 

[inasuma | 1,206]

2 hours ago, karljobst said:

From everything I've heard and seen I totally believe that Wata produces a better product. However, the first and foremost job of a grading company is to provide accurate and consistent gradings. I don't believe an auction house like Heritage would or should partner with a brand new grading company that had no track record. It just makes absolutely no sense. At best, HA should have waited for a couple of years to establish that Wata were legit and it had credibility.

As experts you might be able to tell that a case is good and is a better product, but I don't think that's enough to warrant this relationship unless there was something less than reputable going on. When you partner this with the conflicts of interest, lying to the public, Halperin's personal stake, I just can't believe this is anything other than people with power using their own companies as tool for there own profit.

Something to consider (and I'm not defending Wata/HA here) is that Wata's founders (Deniz/Kenneth) had the reputation, which manifested in Wata. In that sense, the experience and knowledge Deniz and Kenneth brought to the table could have required the existence of Wata to deliver the product (authentication/grading) desired by HA/the market. I believe Deniz had talked about creating Wata many years before it eventually came into existence, so it isn't like HA pulled Deniz and Kenneth off the street. Again, not defending them here, just adding context because behind every company is people, and in this case, the people would be key for Wata.

All that said, as business leaders/entrepreneurs, no, they don't appear to have a track record, which I 100% agree is a problem. At least for Deniz, who was fresh out of college at the time (or close to it).

Edited December 1, 2021 by inasuma

[inasuma | 1,206]

2 hours ago, MinusWorlds said:

Ehh no thanks. Karl is after the truth and what he feels is right. Seth is after his own agenda. 
 

My favorite part about some of this tho is my first interaction with Seth was when he posted his “pop report” for sale stating “pop reports will never be released”. My response was “yes they will, and what you’re selling isn’t a pop report”. For whatever reason that completely set him off. Even tho I said his data was valuable and worth the price of admission. Didn’t matter. I was the enemy and that’s all there was to it. Despite me now being proven right on both counts. 
 

Despite Karl and I disagreeing on some content he’s been nothing but cordial, polite and professional to me. He’s a reasonable person and I understand his motive. I enjoy our conversations very much. I have yet to have a reasonable discussion with Seth save for a couple of private messages not involving games. He’s clearly a very bright guy, but maybe too ummm…volatile?

Nothing to add, just quoting because this is also my take.

[DarkKobold | 196]

32 minutes ago, MinusWorlds said:

How so? 

His instagram, while fun to follow and impressive, is ~2/3rds WATA graded games. He probably has one of the largest WATA collections out there, if not the largest. If videos like the Jobst materially effect prices of WATA games, jonebone stands to lose a lot of value to his collection.  

 

[MinusWorlds | 193]

12 minutes ago, DarkKobold said:

His instagram, while fun to follow and impressive, is ~2/3rds WATA graded games. He probably has one of the largest WATA collections out there, if not the largest. If videos like the Jobst materially effect prices of WATA games, jonebone stands to lose a lot of value to his collection.  

 

I don’t want to speak for Jonas, but it’s been my experience in knowing him since he’s started that he’s a collector. A diehard one. I don’t think he’d care  nearly as much as you think he would if his collection value tanked.  Because, like me, the pieces in his personal collection are for him. From a resell perspective it might hurt but I don’t think he would be untruthful or manipulative in any way.

I will also say he’s been very critical of Wata in the past where he felt necessary. He and I have argued about Wata as well, with me being the pro-Wata guy. 
 

As far as him having the most, or close to, number of Wata graded games. No, not even close. There are many people that have far more Wata games than he does. Keep in mind he has a shit ton of VGA games too.
 

Jonas and I didn’t speak for a number of years over a disagreement, but even in those days we didn’t talk I’ve only known him to be an honest person.