Heritage Auctions Thread

[Gulag Joe | 584]

"you DoNt CaRe AbOuT tHe IlLeGaL aCtIviTy"

Says the guy with a youtube account who isn't a lawyer nor a prosecutor all while using his platform to pretend he's some law abiding vigilante using a prop "lawyer" to use words like maybe and might have as damning evidence for some ridiculous criminal video game conspiracy!

Again, who is sponsoring you to say these things about Wata? Please refrain from ad hominem attacks this time.

Also, instead of trashing people's character in cell phone videos, did you call the police about any of this since you're wholly unqualified in this arena? What a joke.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Gulag Joe

[jonebone | 1,307]

14 minutes ago, karljobst said:

You are the expert when it comes to NA. You are the expert when it comes to collecting.

When it comes to marketing, endorser obligations. I am an expert. And on top of that, I've spoken with lawyers about it and done a lot of research. When it comes to my analysis on the legality of Wata and Heritage's actions I'm very confident. I'm happy to concede any less important point (i.e What NA was) because ultimately I don't really care about that. I brought it up in the video because I believe that Jeff was lying, and it was just to point that out.

Roger that, I'll concede you are more of an expert than me in the conflict of interest arena, but you aren't a full legal expert or you wouldn't have had to bring in an outside source.  

She also uses extremely soft language in her responses, indicating that the probable cause is there to potentially raise legality disputes, but ultimately a judge could preside either way and the outcome is not predetermined.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

1 minute ago, jonebone said:

Roger that, I'll concede you are more of an expert than me in the conflict of interest arena, but you aren't a full legal expert or you wouldn't have had to bring in an outside source.  

She also uses extremely soft language in her responses, indicating that the probable cause is there to potentially raise legality disputes, but ultimately a judge could preside either way and the outcome is not predetermined.

It’s like we’re saying the same words, at the same time.

[karljobst | 242]

13 minutes ago, MinusWorlds said:

Karl,

I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole too much on some of this, but Jonas (jonebone) does bring up some fair points. He’s also one of the most educated and knowledgeable collectors in our hobby. He has also been critical of Wata when he has issue with some of their practices. So he’s def not a Wata lemming either. 
 

I do agree that NA was first and foremost a forum/marketplace. I think you would have a very difficult time getting any of the regulars there to state otherwise. I 100% agree the data is valuable and it’s a shame it’s mostly unusable now, but it was never a pricing guide tool or a database first and foremost.  Heck, Jonas and I and many others poured hours upon hours into creating educational content there. We were gutted too. 
 

I also noticed the lawyer in your video uses a lot of words like “maybe, possibly, could have” etc. That’s hardly saying there were 100% FTC violations. I totally get the desire to shed light on the situation, but we’re a long way from subpoenas and hearings. 
 

I applaud you for trying to get it right. I do. I’ve told you that before, but you also need to understand that even “little” inaccuracies to those who built this hobby and live it everyday and know all the minute details are going to take exception to incorrect statements. No matter how small they seem to be. 
 

 

The NA conversation arose only in this 2nd video because Jeff lied about what NA was in response to my first video. The point of the statement wasn't to label NA as this or that, but to illustrate that Jeff was being deceptive. NA was a forum, marketplace and a database. From what my research established, NA was created as a database. Then over time the forum grew. However I still see the website as a database, with a forum feature. Either way, I don't really care about arguing about those details because they are so irrelevant to anything. The database is gone, Jeff completely misdirected in his response. I believe he was deceptive.

I've spoken with many lawyers, there very rarely speak concretely. They will say "A court might find this" etc. I'm pretty strong in my own opinion on this one either way.

If I dismiss inaccuracies (which there will be, you have more expertise than me) it isn't because I disagree. It's just because I find it not impactful to my overall message in the video. I tried to stay more away from the collecting side in this video and focus more on just the marketing. But I did throw in my own opinion at the end for sure, which I know some collectors will disagree with.

Edited December 1, 2021 by karljobst

[karljobst | 242]

3 minutes ago, MinusWorlds said:

It’s like we’re saying the same words, at the same time.

Btw, since our conversation I have become more open and positive with the market in general. But on the flipside since then I have become much more negative about Wata and Heritage (especially in the formative periods).

Edited December 1, 2021 by karljobst

[karljobst | 242]

7 minutes ago, jonebone said:

Roger that, I'll concede you are more of an expert than me in the conflict of interest arena, but you aren't a full legal expert or you wouldn't have had to bring in an outside source.  

She also uses extremely soft language in her responses, indicating that the probable cause is there to potentially raise legality disputes, but ultimately a judge could preside either way and the outcome is not predetermined.

I didn't have to bring in an outside source. I did not dictate or have any control over what she said. I gave her the info and asked for her opinion. This was done just to see if I was completely wrong and to get a 2nd opinion. But lawyers aren't experts in everything, and when it comes to these matters they will look at the same resources and statutes anyone else would. I didn't rely on anything she said, it was really a separate thing just to see what a lawyer would say.

I still have my own opinion based on my experience as an influencer and the fact that I've been tracking these issues for years.

[MinusWorlds | 193]

1 minute ago, karljobst said:

Btw, since our conversation I have become more open and positive with the market in general. But on the flipside since then I have become much more negative about Wata and Heritage (especially on the formative periods).

I get it man. I do. And like I said, I agree.
 

Seth would have anyone believe I’m a greedy monster, sorry jackal, because I sell games. The truth of the matter is I’m a collector that truly cares about this hobby. I built a business around the hobby I love because I saw an opportunity. But, I care about this hobby much more than I should and I care about integrity, honest practices, and ethics. 
 

I think we’ll get to a much better place collectively through things like your videos, pop reports, disclosure, and transparency. Anyone doing it for the passion should want that. 

[karljobst | 242]

1 minute ago, MinusWorlds said:

I get it man. I do. And like I said, I agree.
 

Seth would have anyone believe I’m a greedy monster, sorry jackal, because I sell games. The truth of the matter is I’m a collector that truly cares about this hobby. I built a business around the hobby I love because I saw an opportunity. But, I care about this hobby much more than I should and I care about integrity, honest practices, and ethics. 
 

I think we’ll get to a much better place collectively through things like your videos, pop reports, disclosure, and transparency. Anyone doing it for the passion should want that. 

The one thing in my video that I actually would like your opinion on, is what I say at the end about these investors only buying the rating. I have a feeling there will be something that I'm missing, but what's your opinion on the VGA mario selling for $240k, vs the Wata one for $800k.

[Gulag Joe | 584]

"i'vE sPoKeN wItH mAnY lAwYeRs" and none of them confirmed my bias that I asked them to confirm.

Recognize the grift.

[karljobst | 242]

26 minutes ago, jonebone said:

Roger that, I'll concede you are more of an expert than me in the conflict of interest arena, but you aren't a full legal expert or you wouldn't have had to bring in an outside source.  

She also uses extremely soft language in her responses, indicating that the probable cause is there to potentially raise legality disputes, but ultimately a judge could preside either way and the outcome is not predetermined.

BTW, full transparency. After my first video I received messages from people telling me about much worse things than I bring up in the video. I don't talk about them because they are confidential and also because I can't prove them. But some of the characters I talk about in the video I go a bit hard on because there are other things I know (that you wouldn't get just from the video itself).

I totally get that sometimes I say things that seem like complete assumptions but generally they are based on testimony I have, I just don't expressly mention it. I do strongly believe that people such as Halperin helped create Wata for direct personal gain. And I feel like that's why these investments weren't made public when they legally should have been.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

2 hours ago, karljobst said:

Unfortunately the video had to come out today because of sponsor obligations. Though I would have loved to talk more about the population report release as IMO it's likely a result (at least in part) to the public's reaction to my first video. I'm not sure how it would undercut anything I said. 

I would celebrate and encourage any positive actions.

The entire manipulation angle that has been heavily suggested, if not outright claimed, by many online personalities relies on the premise that people working at WATA and auction houses secretly know how many of these items are in existence and are pushing prices by taking advantage of a naive public. Millions of these games were made, ergo there must be thousands out there and it's all a giant speculative bubble that is due to pop at any point. WATA and the auction companies know this and therefore are trying to rake in as much money as possible before the data becomes available and "the bubble bursts." 

Pat and Reserved Investments have been beating that drum incessantly, with Pat saying stuff like there must be hundreds, if not thousands of sealed first print Mario 3s because he had one on his shelf and it's not all that rare CIB (note: there are 17 graded by WATA to date). Reserved Investments says stuff like "there are casepacks upon casepacks out there," saying he opened them, yet without ever actually revealing what games they were or how many there were, etc. RI did a reaction video to the pop report yesterday and, quite frankly, it was embarrassing. Faced with objectively low population numbers, he doubled down and said with a straight face these were higher than he expected! The reason, of course, is because he knows a lot of what he says falls apart if he makes an admission populations are short, so things must be spun no matter what to keep that narrative going. Now, is it fair to reference Pat and RI when I'm addressing you? I'd argue yes, as your first video included both parties and an implicit espousal of their positions on this subject. Plus, there's a bit more below. 

Long time sealed collectors have been saying for a very long time how rare these items are, particularly relative to other collectibles and in high grade. Yet very little time has been spent actually seriously considering the evidence of exactly what's out there and why certain people might be spending the money they are on them. Instead, the viewer is either strongly led or outright told it's all a scam and manipulation, with strong populist undertones inserted to, so to speak, rally the troops. As MinusWorld mentioned before, we have wanted the pop reports out there; if anything it shows how special these items truly are and how crazy it is so many of them are naturally hard to come by. 

In your case, it is mostly the former, with the exception of the icon you used in your first video, which imo is bordering on defamation, but not like anyone will care enough to do anything about it and quantifying damages would be a pain in the ass. That SMB 2 million dollar sale was 100% real and conducted by a regulated company, and today it actually doesn't look like a bad buy at all, given there's a real argument it will be the single highest valued game moving forward. Now, I know you said you didn't want people to focus on what you said is your belief these things are happening and the manipulation aspect, but it was basically impossible not to, and it seems to be the main thing many, if not most, people took from the video. That icon itself quite posisbly played a big role in that, especially in today's world where people are heavily influenced by the first thing they see. 

I will say the at least appearance of what I guess I would term as "insider trading" is mor than fair game. I think Mark Haspel was basically hands off except for being used as a bridge to collectors in other categories, and certainly he was never hiding anything, but when you list someone with a WATA email address on the website, they should be held to a different standard. The Advisory Board stuff, I totally disagree with you, it's 100% standard business to partner with people on the board and for board members to participate in markets. I personally don't understand why Mark Haspel wasn't listed solely as an advisor, but that's not something I can really answer, and I know he released a statement a while back, so I'll let him speak for himself. But, without question, I understand the focus on issues like this. 

I personally do think this second video is more focused, but the issue is the toothpaste really can't be put back in the bottle for the first one. I personally think you could have done a better job of outreach to the companies and individuals you reference for both videos. I think you could have done better outreach to the sealed/graded gaming community for background on the first, but I will give you credit that you did do so afterwards and I think it personally made for a more focused video. Based on the interviews I saw you give, I think perhaps you realized viewers were honing in on something you perhaps didn't want them to, and I definitely think there was an improvement with this focus in the second. 

Anyway, that was a pretty long-winded answer and I'm sure I both repeated myself and left stuff out, but that's what happens in heavily involved topics! Thanks for stopping by to address some stuff. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by ExplodedHamster

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,169]

14 hours ago, karljobst said:

My Wata video is my 17th most viewed video. Other videos have had far more reach, even in terms of gaming news. You don't understand how youtubers derive income from youtube evidently. I'd make far more money making several shorter videos each with sponsors than devoting a lot of time on one shorter video. Sponsors have no creative control over my videos at all, aside from what date range they can be released in.

.

Edited December 2, 2021 by WalterWhiteJr.

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,169]

.

Edited December 2, 2021 by WalterWhiteJr.

[Gulag Joe | 584]

1 minute ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

Why are you still here?

Why are you still here?

[MinusWorlds | 193]

8 minutes ago, karljobst said:

The one thing in my video that I actually would like your opinion on, is what I say at the end about these investors only buying the rating. I have a feeling there will be something that I'm missing, but what's your opinion on the VGA mario selling for $240k, vs the Wata one for $800k.

Yeah I had some immediate thoughts on that. IMO there’s a few reasons. I think here is a good example of when to separate the term investor from collector.
 

I agree with Jonas about the tampering issue with VGA. I have personally seen a game swap done on a VGA case that was undetectable. Investors cannot take that sort of risk. For them Wata offers the only current solution. It’s a real problem for investors. 
 

Wata also was brilliant in their grading system. Not only did they separate the box from the seal grade but they used a system that is easily transferable to the new collectors they were targeting. It’s essentially a mirror of the systems used in cards and comic grading. VGA’s system, as you know, is not conducive to those collectors. And we all know a lot of the big spenders have come from those hobbies. Not all, but a lot. So there’s a pool of buyers who simply won’t touch a VGA a game regardless of grade.

I think another piece is education. This stuff takes time to learn, if buyers care to learn it is another thing. If they don’t want to they can just keep buying Wata and feel warm and fuzzy. But I always say “buy the game, not the grade.”  A lot of buyers don’t have the “eye” that seasoned collectors do. I think that was evidenced in the Sonic buy. That was 100% a grade buy. I agree. Whether it’ should have been an “A” seal is another discussion. As it turns out I believe the buyer was a first-time game buyer (It was a legit sale BTW). Buyers need to educate themselves and realize a VGA 95 is typically the better example, but they also need to know what to look for despite it being a 95 or 9.8 for that matter, which leads me to my next point.
 

You are correct when you stated the VGA 95 could be a better example than a Wata 9.8/A++. More times than not it is the better example. In this case it wasn’t. That particular 95 would not have hit 9.8/A++. There was a tiny ding on the box. it would have been a 9.6/A++ and I think some buyers either knew that, or relied on the advice of others who did. Others, because of the reasons I stated above were never buyers on that game. 
 

A 95 should be closer price-wise to a 9.8 in most cases. I could see a 10-15% deviation either way making sense. But, it’s going to take time for buyers/investors to understand why a 95 should command the same, close to, or more than a 9.8. It’s also going to take some innovation, and marketing from VGA to get there. I think with them being acquired now as well we’ll see some changes. Hopefully then the gap will close. Right now the discrepancy is a bit irrational IMO. 
 

Couple all that with the fact that you had 2 massive buyers out of the equation with the 2 9.8 sales and it was bound to underperform. 
 

I hope that long-winded answer helps. 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

1 hour ago, karljobst said:

4) Heritage and Wata had an agreement upon Wata's launch. Whatever you're talking about in regards to Wata 'capitalising' on anything has no bearing. Heritage aligned with a grading company that had no history, or track record of grading games in the market. And Halperin was an investor, and that relationship was never disclosed. I just don't believe your story. Even if your rationalisation were true (which it could be), I believe Wata would need experience in the industry to prove that the product was good over extensive testing in the actual market before its credibility could be established. 

Isn't partnering with an auction company the exact way in which a new grading company would prove the concept and product? I think it's exactly how I'd wager most business owners would want to start, at least. I also think a problem you are also overlooking with VGA, beyond the fact they would not financially guarantee their accuracy or tamper proof cases, is the scale is just not something that is standard across collectibles, and it's not very, for lack of a better term, "exciting." Having near perfect games get an 85+ doesn't do it for a lot of people. And it's not really a changeable thing, given there was already a decade of games being encased. 

[Gulag Joe | 584]

Of course you love this conspiracy. You are the primary target of these conspiracy videos. Part of the "I hated on people buying sealed video games but they turned out to be a great investment and now I'm mad and have to formulate some ridiculous conspiracy and find other people on the internet to confirm my bias so I can sleep better at night with my thumb Rolex deep in my mouth."

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,169]

1 hour ago, jonebone said:

Roger that, I'll concede you are more of an expert than me in the conflict of interest arena, but you aren't a full legal expert or you wouldn't have had to bring in an outside source.  

She also uses extremely soft language in her responses, indicating that the probable cause is there to potentially raise legality disputes, but ultimately a judge could preside either way and the outcome is not predetermined.

Coming from a lawyer… no lawyer worth their weight in salt would EVER make a definitive statement about a potential legal conclusion, never mind make one publicly on YouTube.

Edited December 1, 2021 by WalterWhiteJr.

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,169]

46 minutes ago, karljobst said:

I didn't have to bring in an outside source. I did not dictate or have any control over what she said. I gave her the info and asked for her opinion. This was done just to see if I was completely wrong and to get a 2nd opinion. But lawyers aren't experts in everything, and when it comes to these matters they will look at the same resources and statutes anyone else would. I didn't rely on anything she said, it was really a separate thing just to see what a lawyer would say.

I still have my own opinion based on my experience as an influencer and the fact that I've been tracking these issues for years.

Bringing in an outside legal expert was 1000% a smart decision. People would have given you crap if you had not lol. 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

1 hour ago, Gulag Joe said:

Again, who is sponsoring you to say these things about Wata?

You keep asking this. Did you happen to like, check out the video on YouTube? The description? A little research goes a long way. 

Also, it seems like you are being intentionally obtuse and pretending like you don't know how YouTubers getting their videos sponsored works. Idk, maybe you don't, but I think it's pretty clear. There's not some conspiracy here. It's a fucking poster website, lol

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,169]

9 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

Why are you still here?

God you’re infuriating. Yet a piece of me would mourn you if you left. Carry on

[Gulag Joe | 584]

3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

There's not some conspiracy here.

Lololololol the entire video is a conspiracy!

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

8 minutes ago, MinusWorlds said:

A 95 should be closer price-wise to a 9.8 in most cases. I could see a 10-15% deviation either way making sense. But, it’s going to take time for buyers/investors to understand why a 95 should command the same, close to, or more than a 9.8. It’s also going to take some innovation, and marketing from VGA to get there. I think with them being acquired now as well we’ll see some changes. Hopefully then the gap will close. Right now the discrepancy is a bit irrational IMO. 

Fair or not, I think we are evolving into a place where WATA is PSA and VGA is Beckett. When you get to 95+ or 100, similar to the BGS 10, it could break records. When you're below a 95+, WATA 9.8/A++ will be king. CGC is going to fit in there somehow as well, and is a very well respected company, so it's all very interesting. 

[WalterWhiteJr. | 1,169]

@Null Seth get your butt in here 

[Tyree_Cooper | 777]

who cares about the law, the law can be outsmarted in a million ways; that doesn't make some things acceptable. if karl's videos, which were not necessary to figure this one out, haven't convinced you those guys are running a scam ring at the expense of "normal" fans, gamers and collectors (whether used, new or sealed), then you are either profiting from the scam in some way, good for you, or you just don't want to see the problem.

my hunch is that this is obviously pushing prices up, including loose and complete. we're all doing this by buying, keeping, and later reselling for at least the same price, it's selfish and pushes prices up, but it's a natural way since things get scarcer and more people enter the market as time passes. here though, the push is completely artificial and they are trying to make incredible prices seem acceptable.

disclaimer: i collect sealed games i can find for cheap, and i have never bought or sold a graded game, and i have never graded anything.

have fun guys, and if possible stop putting money into grading. grading stinks like federer's socks after a 3 hour final on clay court.