The Metroidvania Thread

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Hollow knight is more metriodvania than metroid and castlevania. Shinning example of the genre. 
 

I happen to love “metriodvanias” but Not a huge fan of the name. 

[Sumez | 2,994]

Anyone who doesn't like the term, "search action" is the genre name usually used in Japan and by anyone else around the world who also feels weird saying Metroidvania.
For some reason I like the term, though.

I can see why a lot of people would have an issue with the genre due to the way it tends to be the default approach to slap on to any low(ish) budget indie game. It's just become so omnipresent now that it's no longer the rare and intriguing twist to the traditional platformer that it was when Symphony of the Night came out. And even though some of the games are very different, it does end up occasionally feeling like you're playing the exact same game over again. I even got that experience from the otherwise highly acclaimed Hollow Knight.

One thing I think dictates this turn though, more than people's love for the genre itself, is the fact that it's simply easier for developers to make a good game out of a metroidvania. And it's an easier sell as well.
Want to make an action packed run'n'gun platformer? Good luck competing with the likes of Contra 3 and Metal Slug X. Want to make a tight action platformer? Good luck recreating the experience of games like Ninja Gaiden, OG Castlevania, or Mega Man X.
Not saying it can't be done, or that you shouldn't try it. In fact, I wish way more people would try it! But it takes a lot of knowledge and feeling for great flow and tight level design to create something that feels genuinely enjoyable and memorable, as opposed to just punching or shooting your way through a series of repetitive obstacles (ie. Panzer Bandit ).

In brash terms, you don't really need that in a Metroidvania. Quite the contrary, if your action segments are too "tight" and challenging, it'll easily turn exploration and backtracking into more of a frustrating chore. A lot of the joy in a game like that comes from discovery, as the game's world gradually becomes bigger and you get the abilities to reach places you have seen hinted at but not been able to reach. It's a shot of dopamine that's fairly "easy" for the game designer to recreate. And if you want your game to be even better, you can achieve it simply by spending extra time on creating more areas, to add more variety and discovery into your game! That's not saying it doesn't take skill to create that game, but it's a skill that is easier to come by, or if nothing else, pay your way out of.

Compare a "hardcore" action game, if the game becomes too long it becomes a chore to play, and you'll need to spend your time tweaking or replacing the segments already there to make them more enjoyable instead. Something that takes a rarer talent than "just" creating more impressive assets. But at the same time, if your game isn't "too long", it probably also won't resonate with the majority of game critics or spoiled Steam users, who'll die 50 times through on easy mode and then complain that your game is wya too short. Something large and filled with exploration is just a much easier sell.

[RH | 4,967]

This is possibly my second favorite genre but let's be honest...

[Californication | 1,490]

That'd an interesting thought. (Oh no it's Sam Seder, what a fuc'$!: nightmare)

I think the emphasis on unlocking area is higher on Metroidvanias. It happens in Zelda, but in Zelda you have a sense that you can go wherr you want to go and unlocking areas is part of the adventure. A metroidvania you feel trapped from tye beginning and you are wondering how to strrtch your boundaries.

I got through half of Hyoerlight Drifter this weekend and I always felt like I was just looking around. Maybe I'll do something and maybe I won't.

[spacepup | 2,412]

I mentioned this in Discord the other day, but I'm quite fond of Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom.  It's a super cute, super fun evolution of the Wonder Boy universe, into a pretty fun metroidvania style game.  I loooooves it!  And it has recently been on sale in the eshop for under $20.  There are tons of other great options as well, but this one has been on my mind recently.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 586]

Metroidvania as a word exists only because a Castlevania game had elements from the Metroid style.

 

Any game that is not borrowing from Castlevania but has Metroid elements should not be called Metroidvania.

[Sumez | 2,994]

2 hours ago, RH said:

This is possibly my second favorite genre but let's be honest...

Wasn't that literally the idea behind the original Metroid? Like, I'm pretty sure Nintendo flat out said that, so it's not really a hot take haha

 

[phart010 | 1,708]

1 hour ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Metroidvania as a word exists only because a Castlevania game had elements from the Metroid style.

 

Any game that is not borrowing from Castlevania but has Metroid elements should not be called Metroidvania.

Since there is no single person who is known for coining the phrase, you can’t ask anyone to clarify on what Metroidvania means. 
 

This word was adopted by the masses and different people seem to have different opinions on what it means. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by phart010

[MagusSmurf | 577]

Symphony of the Night mostly looks, sounds, and controls pretty good but the RPG elements mesh poorly with the exploration and so a huge chunk of the game pretty much devolves into a Dracula's Castle Walking Simulator with no challenge whatsoever. Maybe it's partially the path I'm naturally inclined to take but for me this always starts well before the second half and then I tend to start getting bored somewhere in the Inverted Castle, which is really neat conceptually and I respect the ambition but makes the game feel kind of bloated.

Have intended to do a challenge run for awhile now where I use subpar equipment, avoid exploring too heavily, and fight the bosses in the order the library lists to avoid overlevelling all to see if there's more worthwhile action design that's hard to otherwise observe underneath the eye candy and map exploration but never gotten around to it. Barring the first two GBA titles which have their own issues, I prefer the later Metroidvanias.

[Sumez | 2,994]

2 hours ago, phart010 said:

Since there is no single person who is known for coining the phrase, you can’t ask anyone to clarify on what Metroidvania means. 
 

This word was adopted by the masses and different people seem to have different opinions on what it means. 

Although there's variations, like whether the term applies to 3D games or other non-"sideways view"/platform games, etc., I think there's a pretty clear general idea that most people agree on quite well.

I don't know if you can find a single person to "coin" the phrase, but if you want to look into its history, it started when Konami began releasing CV games on GBA that revived the style of Symphony of the Night. The term was then used to differentiate the two popular styles of games within the series, the Classicvania, and the Metroidvania. Eventually the latter term would bleed out into the rest of video games, when more people started adopting the style.

So there's your explanation for the "castlevania" half of the term, even though as people have been noting, it's not based on anything SotN specifically invented, and plenty of games outside of just Metroid were designed around this idea long before SotN came out.

  

45 minutes ago, MagusSmurf said:

Dracula's Castle Walking Simulator

That's Magical Vacation Dracula to you

Edited June 28, 2021 by Sumez

[phart010 | 1,708]

1 hour ago, MagusSmurf said:

Symphony of the Night mostly looks, sounds, and controls pretty good but the RPG elements mesh poorly with the exploration and so a huge chunk of the game pretty much devolves into a Dracula's Castle Walking Simulator with no challenge whatsoever. Maybe it's partially the path I'm naturally inclined to take but for me this always starts well before the second half and then I tend to start getting bored somewhere in the Inverted Castle, which is really neat conceptually and I respect the ambition but makes the game feel kind of bloated.

Have intended to do a challenge run for awhile now where I use subpar equipment, avoid exploring too heavily, and fight the bosses in the order the library lists to avoid overlevelling all to see if there's more worthwhile action design that's hard to otherwise observe underneath the eye candy and map exploration but never gotten around to it. Barring the first two GBA titles which have their own issues, I prefer the later Metroidvanias.

Playing it through in one sitting can make the inverted castle boring. But, at the time when the game came out, it was getting a free expansion pack like 6months to 1 year later.

Keep in mind Castlevania SOTN came out in the early days of the internet. People mostly got their gaming info from strategy guides and gaming magazines. So back then, you’d play through the game and beat it by killing Richter. That’s it, you get 100% and then its game over. Nobody found the inverted castle on their own.

Then like 6 months to a year later, you’d read that there was actually this super secret inverted castle. You didn’t know if it was a hoax like Ninja Mario or whatever other fake things people believed in, so you’d pop the game back in after having shelved it for months. Then it turns out to work. So now you get to re-explore a second part of the game that you thought that you had already finished.

This effect can’t truly be replicated in the world we live in today with the speed of information traveling via internet communication. The closest we’ll come to it is dropping dlc packs to expand the game

Edited June 28, 2021 by phart010

[Sumez | 2,994]

5 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Nobody found the inverted castle on their own.

Come on now

I was just talking to a friend who played the game for the first time, completely blind, only a month ago, intentionally avoiding any sort of guides. I was gonna give him hints for the inverted castle if he didn't find it on his own, but he made it there just fine within 48 hours of starting the game.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Sumez

[phart010 | 1,708]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

Come on now

I was just talking to a friend who played the game for the first time, completely blind, only a month ago, intentionally avoiding any sort of guides. I was gonna give him hints for the inverted castle if he didn't find it on his own, but he made it there just fine within 48 hours of starting the game.

Edit: Spoiler alert

Spoiler

 

It’s not impossible to do it on your own, but how many people would know to wear the silver and gold rings in the clock room? I don’t recall if there was anything that gave you a hint to do that..

Ok assuming you do that, Maria gives you the glasses. But then how many people would know to wear them for the Richter battle? She didn’t exactly say “wear these glasses while your fighting Richter, and then only attack the orb thingy while your fighting him.”

 

Props to your friend, but I think it’s realistic to say that the majority of people did not find it on their own.

Edited June 28, 2021 by phart010

[Californication | 1,490]

2 hours ago, phart010 said:

Props to your friend, but I think it’s realistic to say that the majority of people did not find it on their own.

So that's how I invert the castle.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Californication

[Estil | 1,265]

1 hour ago, phart010 said:

Nobody found the inverted castle on their own.

Then like 6 months to a year later, you’d read that there was actually this super secret inverted castle. You didn’t know if it was a hoax like Ninja Mario or whatever other fake things people believed in, so you’d pop the game back in after having shelved it for months. Then it turns out to work. So now you get to re-explore a second part of the game that you thought that you had already finished.

Oh thanks for spoiling it for everyone else, loud mouth!

This reminds me of how I was waiting in line to see Titanic and some loud mouth blows the ending that the ship sank! 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Estil

[phart010 | 1,708]

4 minutes ago, Estil said:

Oh thanks for spoiling it for everyone else, loud mouth!

 

Oops. I added a spoiler alert and hid my comment.  
 

@Californication @Estil

Y’all quoted me

Edited June 28, 2021 by phart010

[Sumez | 2,994]

2 hours ago, phart010 said:

I don’t recall if there was anything that gave you a hint to do that..

The item descriptions.

Admitted, the game has a lot of items to find, and most people probably gave up on keeping track at the point where you find those items. But the manner in which you find them, they do come across as somewhat important.

[Sumer | 221]

I still would like to play Hollow Knight sometime.  I liked Symphony of the Night quite a bit.  I actually like Zero Mission more than Super Metroid.  Looking forward to the new Dread game.

[RH | 4,967]

8 hours ago, Sumez said:

Wasn't that literally the idea behind the original Metroid? Like, I'm pretty sure Nintendo flat out said that, so it's not really a hot take haha

 

Here I am thinking I had an original thought. At least it confirms I'm on the right track.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

Definitely one of my favorite genres.

SotN, Ori, and Super Metroid are the only 10/10s in the category. There are a few 9s and then everything drops off quickly after that.

[rdrunner | 422]

I recently played through an indie title named Horace.  It only fits this genre during one specific scene, but this thread is as good an excuse as any to bring it up.

I randomly bought this game when it went on sale on the eShop ($2!) and was simply amazed. It stars a robot that can defy gravity in ways Blaster Master's Wall1/Wall2 tank upgrades should have.  It also has a surprisingly funny and emotional story that is told through many cutscenes, complete with heaps of nostalgic references to gaming history.  Well worth your time.

 

Side note: I don't mind the term "Metroidvania", though I agree that the genre has become a bit too broad.  Even the modern Castlevania games are more accurately just evolutions of Simon's Quest.  The only thing that ties them to Metroid games is the map system.

Edited June 29, 2021 by rdrunner

[MiamiSlice | 3,100]

On 6/27/2021 at 10:24 PM, Tanooki said:

Dead Cells from what I can see looks very nice, but haven't had time to make the time. 

Please make the time

[Kguillemette | 1,547]

Anyone else into heavy metal? The discussion of what is "Metroidvania" reminds me of the discussion of all different subgenres of metal.

"No that isn't death metal. That's post prog gore epic victory metal."

[Reed Rothchild | 9,584]

1 hour ago, Kguillemette said:

Anyone else into heavy metal? The discussion of what is "Metroidvania" reminds me of the discussion of all different subgenres of metal.

"No that isn't death metal. That's post prog gore epic victory metal."

Or the extreme opinions.

"Slayer Cells is amazing, but Hollow Testament is garbage!"

[spacepup | 2,412]

16 hours ago, Sumer said:

I still would like to play Hollow Knight sometime.  I liked Symphony of the Night quite a bit.  I actually like Zero Mission more than Super Metroid.  Looking forward to the new Dread game.

Definitely check out Hollow Knight.  I LOVE the game!  I praise it often, and while people tell me it's overrated, I personally don't care because I really really enjoyed it on my own, not because the internet told me it was good.  I played through it pretty fresh without knowing a ton about it or expectations proclaimed from others.  And I loved it.  It very much gave me a sort of Super Metroid vibe, but with a totally different universe and style.  And that style is fantastic, imo.