Thank F*ck GUILTY

[OptOut | 8,892]

20 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

I just started replaying GTAV and, from what I have learned in this thread, the game is racist and not racist at the same time. 

It's all very confusing. 

Nah, that game is SUPER racist dude. But that's part of the fun! Used to be folks could take a joke, not blow it up into something, but hey!

Oh well, I have zero skin, black, white or otherwise, in this thread so I'm gonna shut up before I get pounced on too, lol! 

[a3quit4s | 4,127]

9 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Nah, that game is SUPER racist dude. But that's part of the fun! Used to be folks could take a joke, not blow it up into something, but hey!

Oh well, I have zero skin, black, white or otherwise, in this thread so I'm gonna shut up before I get pounced on too, lol! 

See I would have thought the same thing but someone pointed out that not celebrating someone's culture is also racist so I don't know

[OptOut | 8,892]

18 minutes ago, a3quit4s said:

See I would have thought the same thing but someone pointed out that not celebrating someone's culture is also racist so I don't know

Oh, no yeah, that's racist too bud. Soz.

[FireHazard51 | 2,053]

18 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Ah, I get it. I didn't mean people would start gang fights, I meant gangs that are already gangs would fight. I saw some weird things on the little news I did watch, it seemed excessive.

OK, you really need to check your news source.  This is NOT a common thing at all and for a news agency to focus on gang fights for an event that happened all over the country they were cherry picking events to show a misleading represents the typical protesting crowds.  If you don't know what would be a good news source I would recommend NPR and PBS.  Both are free to use and they cover politics as evenly as possible.  Hell there is an independent observation board for making sure there isn't a bias being given, About the Ombudsman.  That's something you don't see happening from other news agencies.

14 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I'm learning a lot. I didn't know people felt this way.

It's not something that kids will say or adults will complain about around their kid's white friend.  But growing up in Cincinnati we've have a history of race riots steaming from unequal treatment of the black community.  My Dad never had a high school graduation ceremony because it was canceled due to the National Guard being called in.  I was in high school in 2001 when the first race riot of my life took place and that was pretty much when I got full on exposure of what my peers were either dealing with or will have to deal with.  It's only a matter of time before people of color have a history of when cops were showing bias/racism against them.  I think Amber Ruffin has some great examples of this and does a good job of explaining it to white people who don't see cops being racist/bias against people of color. Amber Ruffin Shares a Lifetime of Traumatic Run-Ins with Police  This shit is just getting more and more obvious as there are cameras to PROVE that black people were not lying and in fact the COPS were lying.  Course I'm speaking in general terms and not for every single police interaction.

12 hours ago, Silent Hill said:

Totally agree that once he was on the ground, the whole situation went to shit. That's where Chauvin sealed both of their fates. 

My only point was that his skin color had nothing to do with why he was placed/held on the ground. They initially tried to treat him like a "white guy", as you described.

Door #3 may hold a more reasonable point of data: Police patrol areas of crime more heavily than areas with lower crime, which makes total sense. A majority of these higher crime areas have a larger minority population. Now this can go down the rabbit hole of what's causing the high crime - high poverty/unemployment may increase theft/robbery crimes, gang activity increases drug-related crimes, homicides, etc. but I'm just looking at it from a high-level, statistical standpoint, not the reason(s) behind the volume of crime. That's an entirely different discussion.

Chicago, as an example: Population = ~50% white, ~30% black, ~20% other races.
Just looking at homicide data, ~75% of murder victims are black and ~71% of people committing those murders are also black. 
Police are patrolling these high-crime areas more heavily, which leads to interactions and skews the data and some people may view it as racially targeted, at face value.

Even where I live, ~30% of the population is black and ~60% of the homicide victims are also black. Black males are 14x more likely to be a victim of homicide than white males. I know very well where police patrol heavily in this city, and it's these high-crime areas. Not targeting race, but targeting areas of high-crime. It's just an unfortunate statistic that it's primarily areas that consist of a higher minority population. 

I don't share these to make a blanket statement that black people are "worse people" than other races, that's not at all what I'm trying to convey here. I'm also not trying to say that there are no cops who do target innocent people solely because of their race. I do think they exist, but are in the extreme minority. 

I'm just sharing why I believe the interactions, when broken down by race, are skewed compared to the population size. 

 

You want to see police discrimination in action.  Pick a rich neighborhood with little population of minorities that has a decent size roadway go through it.  Now look at the rate of cops pulling over people.  Also look at who gets a warning and who gets a ticket.  You can take the "high crime rate" and "poverty stricken" statistics out and you'll still see cops have a bias against people of color.  I'd say it get's amplified when you look at police records in areas of higher minority populations even when you account for income and crime rates.  Because lets be honest here.  Crime and poverty are color blind.  You can fine poor high crime areas that are predominantly white too.  And by crime rates I would go off of murders and over doses.  Not reports of break ins, rape, shootings, etc. where no one died because some times these just go unreported when you don't trust the police.

10 hours ago, phart010 said:

I’ve actually discussed this in depth with one of my black co-workers. The conclusion is that different people have different ideas and feelings on the usage of different words. 
 

First, everyone unanimously agrees that the N-word is totally off limits, you can make an argument that some black people use it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s use is regarded as derogatory. 
 

In general, with some exceptions, it is pretty much agreed that ‘black’ is the politically correct term. However, I worked in retail at a tobacco store long ago and would sometimes chat with customers and don’t remember how the conversation went, but I got called out for referring to a lady as black. She went to some length to explain that the color black is not an accurate description of the color of her skin.

I’ve always thought the word “colored” started to get used in American history as a more sensitive word choice. It appears to have been the governments word of choice as seen on old signs during the period of segregation, this was a time period when the alternative that a lot of people were using was the N-word. In any case, colored does seem to be more the more accurate word than black but it just didn’t stick.

African American was an attempt to turn color into an ethnicity. I think it was even considered the more politically correct word for a time. But one thing I learned (again got in trouble for ) is that not everyone appreciates being referred to as African American. Some black people just want to be called Americans. Some black people may not even identify with African heritage, they could be South American or European.

This is a difficult thing for sure.  The current and best way for almost any interaction and use would be "people of color" which is abbreviated as POC in text form.  You can say black in some ways like, "the black community" or "his mother is black".  100% not acceptable would be "blacks"  as in, "the blacks need to fix..."  I would also say that "colored" would be mostly bad to use but in some ways could be used but best to be avoided.  Just think of all the Jim Crow era signs, they either used "colored" or the n-word.  Go figure that term is not viewed kindly or affectionally.  

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

11 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Okay, I agree with pretty much everything else you've written, but dude, wtf?!?  If I'm speaking with someone who speaks broken English and I'm getting frustrated/no where, I'm a racist if I ask to speak to someone I can communicate with more clearly? ..... WRONG!

I agree with you. Please re-read what Code Monkey said. I'll quote it below. 

10 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Same point I was making. If the person is using a microphone that's all crackly and I can't understand them, I'm going to ask to speak to someone that can communicate more clearly. Same thing if their English is horrible, I'll ask to speak to someone that can communicate more clearly.

Lol that is not what you said and that is not the point you were making. You are drastically changing what you said. Please re-read your quote:

"I know people that flip out when they call a company for support and get some foreigner that has horrible English skills. They get frustrated and ask to speak to someone that speaks English, then they get called racist."

Let me say it again: Asking to speak with someone who speaks English, when YOU ARE ALREADY SPEAKING TO SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS ENGLISH, and it is not their first language, is racist as fuck. 

It's not racist to say "I'm sorry, I'm having trouble communicating with you, can I please speak to another rep?"

It is racist as HELL to say "I'm sorry, I can't understand you, can I speak to someone that speaks English?" if they already are speaking English. Does anyone here disagree that that is super messed up? Come on. 

And honestly, you know people aren't nice about it 90% of the time. Chances are they are already upset about their tech support/order/whatever issue and are already short on patience. I've seen it first hand many times. I've also been accused of being "overseas" tech support when I work in Nebraska, and received quite offensive comments. 

Come on now people.

Edited April 22, 2021 by CodysGameRoom

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

17 hours ago, docile tapeworm said:

did george floyd really help rob people in thier home by pointing a gun at a lady? is it true the lady was pregnant and floyd pointed the gun at her belly?

Why are we discussing George Floyds violent past but not Derek Chauvins? Shouldn't both be considered here? Regardless of Floyd's previous violent crimes he didn't deserve to die. But Chauvin was a bad fucking guy too, just on the right side of the law.

Seeking to show pattern of excessive force by Chauvin, prosecutors cite incident with 14-year-old boy who couldn't breathe

Ex-cop charged in Floyd’s death faces 9 tax evasion counts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Chauvin

[docile tapeworm | 4,204]

9 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Why are we discussing George Floyds violent past but not Derek Chauvins? Shouldn't both be considered here? Regardless of Floyd's previous violent crimes he didn't deserve to die. But Chauvin was a bad fucking guy too, just on the right side of the law.

Seeking to show pattern of excessive force by Chauvin, prosecutors cite incident with 14-year-old boy who couldn't breathe

Ex-cop charged in Floyd’s death faces 9 tax evasion counts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Chauvin

i didnt mean to imply floyd deserved to die that day or that chauvin wasnt wrong. i was only asking to make sure i wasnt believing false information. 

the way i see it is one piece of shit killed another piece of shit. the one who killed happens to be a copper and will most likley get off light.

[fcgamer | 4,754]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Let me say it again: Asking to speak with someone who speaks English, when YOU ARE ALREADY SPEAKING TO SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS ENGLISH, and it is not their first language, is racist as fuck. 

So if you are on tech support speaking to a white French dude, who is speaking broken English, would it still be racist?

Language has little to do with ethnicity, and absolutely nothing to do with race. Period.

Similarly, based on your comments, I'd love to know what your definition of "speaking a language" is. Please share, as a language teacher and alleged polyglot I am honestly curious about this.

Language is first and foremost about communication, that's the reason behind pidgins and creoles forming. If you are speaking with someone who isn't comprehensible despite claiming to "speak" a language, then they aren't speaking it. Similarly, if you can perfectly "speak" a language but have no listening comprehension understanding, you similarly would not generally be considered as having the ability to "speak" said language.

In a place like the States, for instance, we'd generally have high standards if someone claimed to "speak" Spanish but we'd give a much much lower pass in ability big they claimed to "speak Mongolian" . 

Anyways, yeah either way there's nothing racial about it.

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

15 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Anyways, yeah either way there's nothing racial about it.

My bad. Thanks for correcting me! 

[FireHazard51 | 2,053]

14 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

So if you are on tech support speaking to a white French dude, who is speaking broken English, would it still be racist?

Language has little to do with ethnicity, and absolutely nothing to do with race. Period.

Similarly, based on your comments, I'd love to know what your definition of "speaking a language" is. Please share, as a language teacher and alleged polyglot I am honestly curious about this.

Language is first and foremost about communication, that's the reason behind pidgins and creoles forming. If you are speaking with someone who isn't comprehensible despite claiming to "speak" a language, then they aren't speaking it. Similarly, if you can perfectly "speak" a language but have no listening comprehension understanding, you similarly would not generally be considered as having the ability to "speak" said language.

In a place like the States, for instance, we'd generally have high standards if someone claimed to "speak" Spanish but we'd give a much much lower pass in ability big they claimed to "speak Mongolian" . 

Anyways, yeah either way there's nothing racial about it.

 

One could make it racial.  This happens all the time in the real world in America.  A person hears someone speak a foreign language or is speaking English with a have accent that they are told "This is America!  Learn to speak English!"   This is even more of a thing if the person is a customer and the other person is an employee.  

Saying, "I'm having a hard time understanding you can I speak with someone else" AND THE TONE THAT YOU SAY IT! Is a world of difference than "Can I speak with someone who speaks English".  

I personally have trouble understanding native born and raised Americans some times.  I'm talking about people who wouldn't be considered hard to understand so I know the frustration but I also know that I'm the odd one.  I'm the one who has a harder time understanding some talking.  But the way I go about saying something that has the same implication, either they repeat what they say or I have someone else say it to me can come off either racist or just someone having a hard time understanding what's being said.  Tone goes a LONG way in this regard too.  Racism can totally be hear in the tone of what someone says.

[fcgamer | 4,754]

10 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

My bad. Thanks for correcting me! 

If you feel it is racial, please elaborate. We are waiting to hear how exactly language is a racial thing.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

 

3 minutes ago, FireHazard51 said:

Tone goes a LONG way in this regard too.  Racism can totally be hear in the tone of what someone says.

Careful, you are talking to a language teacher. I think he knows a little about tone. 

 

For someone who claims to have such a broad world view, you'd think they would understand that race, ethnicity, diversity, culture, language, etc, are endlessly intertwined with each other. 

[fcgamer | 4,754]

4 minutes ago, FireHazard51 said:

One could make it racial.  This happens all the time in the real world in America.  A person hears someone speak a foreign language or is speaking English with a have accent that they are told "This is America!  Learn to speak English!"   This is even more of a thing if the person is a customer and the other person is an employee.  

Saying, "I'm having a hard time understanding you can I speak with someone else" AND THE TONE THAT YOU SAY IT! Is a world of difference than "Can I speak with someone who speaks English".  

I personally have trouble understanding native born and raised Americans some times.  I'm talking about people who wouldn't be considered hard to understand so I know the frustration but I also know that I'm the odd one.  I'm the one who has a harder time understanding some talking.  But the way I go about saying something that has the same implication, either they repeat what they say or I have someone else say it to me can come off either racist or just someone having a hard time understanding what's being said.  Tone goes a LONG way in this regard too.  Racism can totally be hear in the tone of what someone says.

We are mixing up two different things here though, but that was apparent way back when Cody or whomever starting preaching on about celebrating differences or something, which I want to address later as well.

Race and ethnicity are not the same thing at all. Again, race =/= ethnicity. Even more so, ethnicity =/= language.

I have friends whose ethnicity hail from parts of Asian and South America, yet they were adopted and raised in Denmark and American, respectively. So they speak English and Danish with no accent at all, just as any other native speaker would, despite their genetic makeup not being the same. 

As someone who is fascinated with languages, I do think it's shitty behaviour the whole "This is America, learn to speak English!" thing, but that's honestly not a racial issue, therefore it is not racist.

Btw, I can guarantee though that this sort of behaviour doesn't just happen in America though, or just with English, either.

 

[phart010 | 1,708]

2 hours ago, FireHazard51 said:

This is a difficult thing for sure.  The current and best way for almost any interaction and use would be "people of color" which is abbreviated as POC in text form.  You can say black in some ways like, "the black community" or "his mother is black".  100% not acceptable would be "blacks"  as in, "the blacks need to fix..."  I would also say that "colored" would be mostly bad to use but in some ways could be used but best to be avoided.  Just think of all the Jim Crow era signs, they either used "colored" or the n-word.  Go figure that term is not viewed kindly or affectionally.  

I think “black” and “black people” works so well because its one syllable, and people are already using it/comfortable with it. But yea, “blacks” is probably not the best word to use. 
 

“People of color” is the current politically correct word if your giving a speech or writing an essay, but nobody’s really saying that when they’re talking. 

[fcgamer | 4,754]

10 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

you'd think they would understand that race, ethnicity, diversity, culture, language, etc, are endlessly intertwined with each other. 

Yeah, in some ways they are, but that doesn't change the fact that language proficiency or lack of has nothing to do with race.

If a Chinese couple adopt a white guy from birth, he will ultimately speak fluent Chinese, with a native accent. If a white French guy speaks broken English and you complain and request someone else, how is that racist, if you are both white? 

To keep things balanced for people like Cody who are out of their league with this argument, Afrikaans versus English usage in South Africa would be an example of languages that would have racial undertones. Then again, you also would be dealing with three racial groups, namely blacks, whites, and coloureds.

But as itself, language proficiency or lack thereof is not generally considered racial.

 

[fcgamer | 4,754]

6 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I think “black” and “black people” works so well because its one syllable, and people are already using it/comfortable with it. But yea, “blacks” is probably not the best word to use. 
 

“People of color” is the current politically correct word if your giving a speech or writing an essay, but nobody’s really saying that when they’re talking. 

I still don't understand why each other first and foremost as people though. But somewhere earlier in the thread, someone had said to ignore the differences was racist? I'm confused.

[Code Monkey | 2,014]

2 hours ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I agree with you. Please re-read what Code Monkey said. I'll quote it below. 

Lol that is not what you said and that is not the point you were making. You are drastically changing what you said. Please re-read your quote:

"I know people that flip out when they call a company for support and get some foreigner that has horrible English skills. They get frustrated and ask to speak to someone that speaks English, then they get called racist."

Let me say it again: Asking to speak with someone who speaks English, when YOU ARE ALREADY SPEAKING TO SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS ENGLISH, and it is not their first language, is racist as fuck. 

It's not racist to say "I'm sorry, I'm having trouble communicating with you, can I please speak to another rep?"

It is racist as HELL to say "I'm sorry, I can't understand you, can I speak to someone that speaks English?" if they already are speaking English. Does anyone here disagree that that is super messed up? Come on. 

And honestly, you know people aren't nice about it 90% of the time. Chances are they are already upset about their tech support/order/whatever issue and are already short on patience. I've seen it first hand many times. I've also been accused of being "overseas" tech support when I work in Nebraska, and received quite offensive comments. 

Come on now people.

Maybe I should have been more specific. I would be asking to speak with someone that speaks better English. I guess if you take it that literally, yes, they are technically already speaking English. Now that I've clarified myself, that is the point I was making.

[FireHazard51 | 2,053]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

We are mixing up two different things here though, but that was apparent way back when Cody or whomever starting preaching on about celebrating differences or something, which I want to address later as well.

Race and ethnicity are not the same thing at all. Again, race =/= ethnicity. Even more so, ethnicity =/= language.

I have friends whose ethnicity hail from parts of Asian and South America, yet they were adopted and raised in Denmark and American, respectively. So they speak English and Danish with no accent at all, just as any other native speaker would, despite their genetic makeup not being the same. 

As someone who is fascinated with languages, I do think it's shitty behaviour the whole "This is America, learn to speak English!" thing, but that's honestly not a racial issue, therefore it is not racist.

Btw, I can guarantee though that this sort of behaviour doesn't just happen in America though, or just with English, either.

 

I'm honestly have a horrible vocabulary.  Please sub out racist with xenophobe.  The point being someone can show prejudice in the words they say or the tone that they say it.  

1 minute ago, phart010 said:

I think “black” and “black people” works so well because its one syllable, and people are already using it/comfortable with it. But yea, “blacks” is probably not the best word to use. 
 

“People of color” is the current politically correct word if your giving a speech or writing an essay, but nobody’s really saying that when they’re talking. 

"People of color" will become more common as we start to group brown and black people as one group who experience discrimination.  I know "Hispanic" is considered white.  But really I think we mostly associate "brown" people to mean Lantino/a/X.  You want to talk about being PC, talk about what word to describe people from Mexico and South America.  Remember that Brazil is not considered to be Hispanic since they don't speak Spanish.  I'm not an well versed in this so excuse my misstatement as my ignorance if there was a misstatement.

[fcgamer | 4,754]

2 minutes ago, FireHazard51 said:

You want to talk about being PC, talk about what word to describe people from Mexico and South America.  Remember that Brazil is not considered to be Hispanic since they don't speak Spanish.  I'

I remember talking about this in a fascinating course I took in uni.

From what I had learnt then, Latino would be the correct word to use, but this was maybe twelve years ago so by now I'm probably wrong

[fcgamer | 4,754]

On a different note, why would black be grouped with peoples of colour. I thought black wasn't really considered a color?

 

[Californication | 1,490]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

On a different note, why would black be grouped with peoples of colour. I thought black wasn't really considered a color?

 

Is that a joke?

[phart010 | 1,708]

7 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

On a different note, why would black be grouped with peoples of colour. I thought black wasn't really considered a color?

 

I think generations ago, there may have been first generation people from Africa whose skin color was closer to the color black. But with generations of inter-racial mixing the color has become more brown/tan, so the word “black” is kind of outdated.. Nonetheless people still say black people and seem to be ok with it’s usage at the moment.

Edited April 22, 2021 by phart010

[fcgamer | 4,754]

2 minutes ago, Californication said:

Is that a joke?

Not really a joke, I just thought it's a bit weird from a semantic point of view, that's all. Never actually thought about it until now.

[phart010 | 1,708]

8 minutes ago, Californication said:

Is that a joke?

I think he’s referring to the technicality that black is technically the absence of color

[fcgamer | 4,754]

7 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I think he’s referring to the technicality that black is technically the absence of color

Yup.