Console Debate #1: Sega Master System/Mark III

[mbd39 | 2,020]

NES is my favorite console but I do give credit where it's due.

And Nintendo had a virtual monopoly in the 80s so SMS lacked third party support.

 

[Brickman | 3,983]

15 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Even with bias intact, what are the top ten/twenty/fifty games, and how do they compare against the NES, Genesis, SNES, or TG16/PC-E libraries?

That's a serious question.  I only have a superficial understanding of the library.

I think I might be rating these debates wrong or differently. I don't base my score on what other consoles were released after and compare the libraries, I just rate what I think the console deserves and my rating also includes all regions libraries. One console might get the same rating but for different reasons. 

I don't disagree, all those libraries you mentioned are way better than the SMS. However I do think the SMS has great games worth playing and pretty good graphics & sound for the time.

If you haven't played the following I do suggest giving them a go:

Castle of Illusion

Alex Kidd series

Wonder Boy series

Ninja Gaiden

Ys

Zillion

Asterix

Shinobi

Fantasy Zone 1 & 2

Golden Axe Warrior

Psycho Fox

Outrun

Battlemaniacs 

Lucky Dime Caper

Kenseiden

Gauntlet

Master of Darkness

Batman Returns

 

Those should keep you busy

[Reed Rothchild | 9,523]

12 minutes ago, Shmup said:

I think I might be rating these debates wrong or differently. I don't base my score on what other consoles were released after and compare the libraries, I just rate what I think the console deserves and my rating also includes all regions libraries. One console might get the same rating but for different reasons. 

I don't disagree, all those libraries you mentioned are way better than the SMS. However I do think the SMS has great games worth playing and pretty good graphics & sound for the time.

I only picked those consoles because they're kinda the closest comparisons.  

If you look at fox's scores, a 5/10 is smack dab in the middle.  So if we had to rank a bunch of consoles, where would the SMS land?  Smack dab in sthe middle?

Again, I'm not saying the SMS isn't awesome, because I don't know.  But it's worth having the debate in the debate thread.

[Brickman | 3,983]

4 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I only picked those consoles because they're kinda the closest comparisons.  

If you look at fox's scores, a 5/10 is smack dab in the middle.  So if we had to rank a bunch of consoles, where would the SMS land?  Smack dab in sthe middle?

Again, I'm not saying the SMS isn't awesome, because I don't know.  But it's worth having the debate in the debate thread.

Yep from that perspective I would agree. Even from your list I would rank SMS last. If I had every console laid out then I think I would have to agree that SMS does rank somewhere in the middle. My score was more based on just the library and console as its own thing, which I can see now is different from how others are scoring.

Yep agree, healthy debate is always great. I always like hearing other people's thoughts in these threads because there's usually some points I had never thought of.

[Sumez | 2,950]

The Master System was a major player that deserves recognition for its place on the market, leading the primary opposition against Nintendo's dominance, and in terms of pure hardware, it's obviously superior to the NES, easily overcoming some of the biggest challenges NES developers usually faced in terms of artwork limitations.
And the original model has RGB out of the box, how great is that.

That doesn't help it much though, when the library is as limited as it is. It has some good games, and some really unique ones worth looking into. but even factoring in all of those, the selection is still pretty limited, and in terms of like major timeless classics on the level of SMB3, Contra, or the Mega Man series, there's just no equivalent on the Master System. Your best bet for a "killer app" is probably Wonder Boy 3: Dragon's Trap or Phantasy Star. Both great games, but on the NES they would probably have been a top 30 at best.

People who grew up with a Master System usually default nostalgically to the Alex Kidd games, most notably Alex Kidd in Miracle World. But, uh, it's kind of a really bad game

I agree that you shouldn't "rate" a console based on its contemporaries, but even looking at the Master System in isolation, it just doesn't have a whole lot that's really "up there".

Edited November 9, 2020 by Sumez

[TDIRunner | 2,735]

It's not the best system and it's not even the best system from it's generation, but it's absolutely worth checking out.  If you are from the US, most PAL games will run fine on it, which really opens up the library.  Also, if you aren't using the Japanese version, I highly recommend installing the FM sound mod.  I believe that might have been the first console mod I ever installed.  Overall, I give it a 7.

[Blitus | 24]

My wife still has her SMS.  As far as I am concerned, the Master System's sole purpose is to play Choplifter.

[RH | 4,903]

I'm just now realizing this wasn't started by @Reed Rothchild since I first saw this on my mobile!

[B.A. | 1,139]

Choplifter is fun, and I like the SMS Double Dragon better. 

[themisfit138 | 523]

I have never seen a Master System in person.  Back in the day I thought Genesis was Sega’s first system. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

I own a dozen or so games for this (Japanese / Taiwanense versions of course), but unfortunately I don't have a machine on which to play these.

As someone whose favourite gaming console is the Famicom / NES, I bet I'd have a blast with this one, as I imagine it'd be another machine with games of the same style, but at the same time its own unique experience.

Fun fact: A local Taiwanense company had released at least fifty or so of these games on Game Gear cartridges here. I might actually bust out my Game Gear to try the Double Dragon game, as I've always loved the NES one.

[AstralSoul | 502]

To be fair I haven't spent much time exploring the library of this console but I've been largely underwhelmed by whatever I have played from it. Not the worst by any means but I really just have no interest in it. 

[fox | 1,667]

I never owned a Master System, but a good buddy did so we ended up playing quite a few of the games.  Only a handful of games were really fantastic like Alex Kidd in Shinobi World and Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's trap.  Rest were solid arcade ports (Double Dragon) or just kind of there (the other Alex Kidd games.)  It isn't a console I really find myself returning to.

Edited November 10, 2020 by fox

[Kguillemette | 1,544]

Wonder Boy 3 is a must play. Outside of that, there are a few titles I am nostalgic for, like ALEX kidd, for example, but nothing that makes the console particularly stand out. 

On a side note, the Wonder Boy remake that came out a couple years ago is faithful and excellent.

[DefaultGen | 5,402]

Zillion is better than Impossible Mission. Good job Sega. 

[Strange | 1,700]

I disagree with some of the stuff said here. I don’t think any of the games that are on both systems play better on NES. That’s not a slight on NES, the Master System was just a slightly more powerful system. Rampage, After Burner, Shinobi, on NES are... yikes.

[Strange | 1,700]

I’m looking at the low scores with the same skepticism those on the first page are looking at the high scores with.

Master System isn’t even in my top 3 consoles, but on the last forum (whatever it was called) we had people posting their honest to God opinion that Sega never had a good console or hell, even a good game. I grew up with Nintendo the entire way but come on, that’s embarrassingly wrong. Brand loyalty is a hell of a drug and I think it affects the ratings of a lot of Sega’s consoles these days (except for the 32x which belongs in the trash, and the Dreamcast which is slightly overrated).

[Strange | 1,700]

7 minutes ago, ChickenTendas said:

Like anyone who picks Master System over NES is nuts

I don’t think anyone proposed that notion in this thread though

[Nintegageo | 582]

Comparison is the death of joy. Some Mark Twain wisdom guys and gals.

I think people should stop comparing the console/games and look at it in a void. A 5/10 should be based on a 1 = shit and 10 = awesome, not 1 = Atari 2600 and 10 = SNES.

 

[Brickman | 3,983]

6 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

I’m looking at the low scores with the same skepticism those on the first page are looking at the high scores with.

Master System isn’t even in my top 3 consoles, but on the last forum (whatever it was called) we had people posting their honest to God opinion that Sega never had a good console or hell, even a good game. I grew up with Nintendo the entire way but come on, that’s embarrassingly wrong. Brand loyalty is a hell of a drug and I think it affects the ratings of a lot of Sega’s consoles these days (except for the 32x which belongs in the trash, and the Dreamcast which is slightly overrated).

I agree and I think some people are so brand loyal that they won’t even give a Sega console a fair go. They’ll pop on a game and within 5-10minutes come up with an excuse why it isn’t as good as some other game, it’s just a port of x game (which NES and SNES also did) or not faithful to the arcade (even though NES games weren’t always faithful). 

Does it have its flaws? Sure. Is it better than the NES? Not by a long shot. But it does have a great library and if people haven’t played it they should at least give the games I mentioned a go.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

16 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

I’m looking at the low scores with the same skepticism those on the first page are looking at the high scores with.

Master System isn’t even in my top 3 consoles, but on the last forum (whatever it was called) we had people posting their honest to God opinion that Sega never had a good console or hell, even a good game. I grew up with Nintendo the entire way but come on, that’s embarrassingly wrong. Brand loyalty is a hell of a drug and I think it affects the ratings of a lot of Sega’s consoles these days (except for the 32x which belongs in the trash, and the Dreamcast which is slightly overrated).

Yeah, I'm a NES guy for life, but I will say this: your assertion that the poll results are due to brand loyalty are wrong, at least in my case.  I think there are 114 games in the US SMS library?  Well I collected for SMS for about 15 years, as I consider it like the little brother of the NES.  I got up to 82 games CIB, and I gave every single one of those games an honest shot.  I even imported some of the games I really wanted to try.  Other than Phantasy Star though, nothing really grabbed me.  And the few games that were decently replayable for me were available on other consoles with vastly superior controllers, so I made the decision about five years ago to sell my entire set of SMS games except for Phantasy Star, as that was literally the ONLY SMS game I ever went back to after the first day of trying a new game.  So as a guy who loves 8 bit gaming, I can honestly say the SMS is not for me.

So yeah, you can repeatedly blame brand loyalty over and over when you don't like the results you are seeing in a poll, but at what point do you start to realize that maybe that other brand has so much loyalty for a reason.............???

Edited November 10, 2020 by Dr. Morbis

[Nintegageo | 582]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I think there are 114 games in the US SMS library?

You answered your own problem. I don't think anyone arguing the SMS is decent-great is doing so without including the EU games that play properly (it's nearly each one).

I also see people mentioning its just crappier ports - I think that was always the case to the Saturn/PS1 era. I also think some are being mistaken as ports when they're not - the Mickey Mouse games being excellent examples.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Nintegageo

[Strange | 1,700]

1 minute ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Yeah, you can repeatedly blame brand loyalty over and over when you don't like the results you are seeing, but at what point do you maybe think that other brand has so much loyalty for a reason.............???

That’s a fair point. Maybe I’m just jaded from seeing Gen Z kids whose favorite console is the Wii U say the Genesis was ass.

Everything is subjective. I prefer the NES to the Master System too, but I don’t think it’s anywhere close to “Jaguar bad.”

I do stand by the assertion that a lot of us 80s/90s kids are still just pissy about Sega’s aggressive ad campaigns. But that’s only because people on this forum have said so themselves.

[Strange | 1,700]

I guess I also don’t think judging the arcade ports from the time with today’s standards is fair. Metroid on NES is damn near unplayable by today’s standards, but Metroid: Zero Mission is a near perfect game. You have to look at it through the lens of people who were excited to play those games in their homes for the first time.

The Pac-Man port on Atari 2600 is bad. The Shinobi and Fantasy Zone ports on SMS are not.

Edited November 10, 2020 by The Strangest

[Reed Rothchild | 9,523]

1 hour ago, Nintegageo said:

Comparison is the death of joy. Some Mark Twain wisdom guys and gals.

I think people should stop comparing the console/games and look at it in a void. A 5/10 should be based on a 1 = shit and 10 = awesome, not 1 = Atari 2600 and 10 = SNES.

 

I respect what you're saying, but the scoring guidelines are set by @fox.  A 1 and 5 and 10 are what he says they are.

I encounter this with the other debates as well.  People give something a 10 because it's "important" to the medium.  Okay, but that's not what I said a score of 10 was.