Definition of a "Complete Set"?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

6 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Stadium Events is only needed if your set requires it. If not, just get World Class Track Meet and call it a day.

Agreed.  However, as I said...

Your set is not a complete set if it has exclusions.

That's the only point I'm making - the distinction between a complete NES set and an individual's complete collection. @Estil's point about trading cards more or less proves that - A complete set is a complete set, but there are collectors that don't go for complete sets.  Someone who collects a specific team or player may not bother with the rest of a given set.  Their collection is no less complete than the guy who collects a full set, they just have their own collecting habits.

Again, I'm not trying to knock you for choosing not to collect SE.  All the power to you, and I hope you finish your personal goals.  I'm simply explaining semantics.  I hope you read this as such, as I'm not trying to antagonize you further.  This was never about attacking your view, and if I misinterpreted anything, that's on me...but you didn't exactly clarify things either until your last post.  And tone is a hard thing to convey accurately in text, so that may be an issue as well.  I hope you enjoy your break, and accept my apologies for pushing you to that point.  It was absolutely not my intention to get to that point.  Please come back soon, mentally rejuvinated.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

Just now, fcgamer said:

Well, if were a Chinese / Taiwanense company and a single sound effect were borrowed, it'd be considered pirated so

Which would lead us to another question, if a company made a game with infringing IP, for sale in a country that doesn't recognise the copyright laws of the other country, would it be pirated? Lol. But that's a fun topic for a different thread.

Anyways, I think the easiest way is to take an Atari approach to full sets, everything goes on,and no one has one.

I wouldn't go THAT far.  But you have a point - country of origin seems to be a determining factor for some, regardless of the realities.  I'm pretty sure you're hinting at Sachen/Thin Chen as the company in question, and I'm with you - they may have appropriated a few things here or there, but they typically released their own stuff.

Anyway, games were made all the time with infringing copyrights back in the day - typically soundtracks.  Double Dragon II ripped off Phil Collins.  Castlevania II had the sounds of Yngwie Malmsteen in it.  Mega Man ripped off Journey.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  I don't think anyone would consider those games pirated

As for the Atari set, I think that @Estil's trading card comparison is spot on again - nobody has (or likely ever will have) a complete "master set," but a playable library is definitely achievable.  Pricey, but achievable.

[peg | 372]

Even after all these years people still trying to come up with goofy and insane arguments for not including Stadium Events. 

 

There are plenty of legitimate conversations to have regarding full sets (NWC, Test carts, Sachen, Blue Chiller, etc) but fucking Stadium Events is not one of them.

Edited March 15, 2022 by peg

[PuppyWaffles | 1,853]

Stadium Events was sold to the general public and Sculptor's Cut for the N64 wasn't. If SC is part of a full set, then SE is too. End of discussion. 

[JamesRobot | 5,801]

SE wasn't sold at retail in my region (Colorado) so it's not part of my NA full set. 

Plus the Power Pad sucks anyways.

[T-Pac | 7,552]

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

677 is the Nintendo Age set. Anything else besides that is whatever anyone wants it to be. Also none of it matters.

[Gloves | 11,783]

42 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

 

OG's will understand:

[Estil | 1,265]

In the Beckett annual guide (and I think this is the only set they do this) they do list prices for a "complete set" of T206's (most every baseball card collector knows what these are) that does NOT include the mega ultra rare cards like the Honus Wagner (the controversial Gretzky/McNall Wagner is THE Holy Grail of the hobby), Eddie Plank (the card's printing plate broke very early in production and wasn't replaced), and a few others I can't think of off the top of my head.

Bottom line, I am super jelly of anyone who can even come close to having even a cart only set of NES cartridges    Never mind all those Richie Riches who can do them all in CIB (and even new!) and settle for no less...  

Edited March 15, 2022 by Estil

[Estil | 1,265]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

677 is the Nintendo Age set. Anything else besides that is whatever anyone wants it to be. Also none of it matters.

I thought both NES and SNES each had about 750ish US releases?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

32 minutes ago, Estil said:

I thought both NES and SNES each had about 750ish US releases?

There's a bunch of idiots that choose to exclude unlicensed games.  Makes me happy though, as it makes them cheaper for me to acquire the ones I still need.

[Splain | 2,571]

24 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

There's a bunch of idiots that choose to exclude unlicensed games.  Makes me happy though, as it makes them cheaper for me to acquire the ones I still need.

I used to be one of those idiots (in the Game Boy collecting world) because of the argument that any ol' Joe could make a game in their basement, and then there's another unlicensed game for me to collect. But pretty much everyone knows which "contemporary" unlicensed games are included, and now that I've finally picked up the GB ones, now I can remove the "licensed" qualifier from my collection.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

6 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Your set is not a complete set if it has exclusions.

Your inability to show respect was all about this? 

That is your way of collecting, not everybody's. Because your one-sided argument is 100% flawed. Which is backed by every fact-finding subject that says a "complete set" is close to impossible to do.

So guess what? You are right. But it also does not stop with just ROM and title variants.

For the licensed NA stuff, you now need to include the following to make it complete:

- Screw variants
- Label variants
- Cart variants

And that is for carts, which includes both the rare gold DuckTales cart and even more rare silver cart. With I believe @Code Monkey said there are around 10 produced of the latter. Which makes it official since both were produced by Capcom. Along with the 26 copies of 1990 NINTENDO WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS: GOLD EDITION being an official cart, thus being part of your pointless one-sided argument.

But why stop there? We also have to include box variants, with all contents matching up to those print runs. Without those, the set is not complete. Because all you have to include those since there are Canadian print variants that have the official Nintendo seal on them.

So yes, you are right. But take note that even if the DuckTales carts are omitted, your argument states that only 26 collectors in the entire world have the right to call their collection complete. And that includes every type of cart put out in the market, including refurbished, as well as every box variant that includes inserts. With there being multiples since we all know that some either had alternative or omitted promotional goods.

Thus making your one-sided argument to be greatly flawed. Because you are saying that nothing can be omitted, yet you never considered what that means.

Hence why I said that there should be a standard full set. Meaning that it starts with that and later adds more variations when you start to include the harder to get stuff, and beyond.

Then again, you also said that you hated logic. Before and after you made efforts to attack both me and the way I treated this topic. Without you asking me why I went with that approach, even though I 100% respected yours. Atop of the fact I said that I needed a break from this topic, and site. With you caring about you being right, and not caring about the fact there are reasons why I need to get away from it.

Again, your one-sided argument is both dismissive and flawed. Because it has been proven that it is impossible for everybody who wants to build a fully complete NES set. Which is why some might limit themselves to the Mattel set. Or just go for carts, with them substituting a NA release of Little Samson for an easier to obtain foreign release.

Thus why I solely focused on the Japanese ATLUS set for the Nintendo Switch. I got the idea from this topic. But I also found out that you care more about being right than the damage you have done to me. 

So again, congrats on being right. And since you appear to be aiming for that "Top 26" spot to prove your point, I will hope you have the money for everything that has you define a "complete set" as something that does not omit anything. Which means you have more than just one cart per game to buy. 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

10 minutes ago, FenrirZero said:

Your inability to show respect was all about this? 

That is your way of collecting, not everybody's. Because your one-sided argument is 100% flawed. Which is backed by every fact-finding subject that says a "complete set" is close to impossible to do.

So guess what? You are right. But it also does not stop with just ROM and title variants.

For the licensed NA stuff, you now need to include the following to make it complete:

- Screw variants
- Label variants
- Cart variants

And that is for carts, which includes both the rare gold DuckTales cart and even more rare silver cart. With I believe @Code Monkey said there are around 10 produced of the latter. Which makes it official since both were produced by Capcom. Along with the 26 copies of 1990 NINTENDO WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS: GOLD EDITION being an official cart, thus being part of your pointless one-sided argument.

But why stop there? We also have to include box variants, with all contents matching up to those print runs. Without those, the set is not complete. Because all you have to include those since there are Canadian print variants that have the official Nintendo seal on them.

So yes, you are right. But take note that even if the DuckTales carts are omitted, your argument states that only 26 collectors in the entire world have the right to call their collection complete. And that includes every type of cart put out in the market, including refurbished, as well as every box variant that includes inserts. With there being multiples since we all know that some either had alternative or omitted promotional goods.

Thus making your one-sided argument to be greatly flawed. Because you are saying that nothing can be omitted, yet you never considered what that means.

Hence why I said that there should be a standard full set. Meaning that it starts with that and later adds more variations when you start to include the harder to get stuff, and beyond.

Then again, you also said that you hated logic. Before and after you made efforts to attack both me and the way I treated this topic. Without you asking me why I went with that approach, even though I 100% respected yours. Atop of the fact I said that I needed a break from this topic, and site. With you caring about you being right, and not caring about the fact there are reasons why I need to get away from it.

Again, your one-sided argument is both dismissive and flawed. Because it has been proven that it is impossible for everybody who wants to build a fully complete NES set. Which is why some might limit themselves to the Mattel set. Or just go for carts, with them substituting a NA release of Little Samson for an easier to obtain foreign release.

Thus why I solely focused on the Japanese ATLUS set for the Nintendo Switch. I got the idea from this topic. But I also found out that you care more about being right than the damage you have done to me. 

So again, congrats on being right. And since you appear to be aiming for that "Top 26" spot to prove your point, I will hope you have the money for everything that has you define a "complete set" as something that does not omit anything. Which means you have more than just one cart per game to buy. 

So now you're taking a deep dive in the opposite direction? The full US NES retail library has been established for literally decades.  By saying you're trying to establish what is on the list is basically you trying to reinvent the wheel.  There are so many inherent flaws in your post that it would take me hours to reply, and it's clear to me that you're more or less irrational beyond all hope.  But basically, look at the trading card analogies.  You have your base set - the generally accepted list of what constitutes a set.  Things like NWC would be like the limited release cards you can pull - an awesome thing, but not absolutely required to have a full set, as it's external to the base set.  Things like screw variants are like a parallel set.  Again, something to shoot for if you like, but not required for a full set.  And subbing foreign cards into your set would make it not a complete US set.  A cheaper, easier to get foreign copy can be a good alternative for someone who just wants it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not complete.  So yeah, you're basically just proving your irrationality here and nothing more. 

[Tulpa | 3,506]

4 hours ago, Estil said:

I thought both NES and SNES each had about 750ish US releases?

677 is the licensed North American set most recognize. Yes, that includes Stadium Events. European licensed exclusives adds another 30 games. Mah Jong was a licensed release exclusive to Hong Kong.

768 is the North American retail list, licensed and unlicensed, but it has some oddities like Cheetahmen II, which wasn't released officially, and Myriad, which also has some shaky retail origins (was it ever sold outside the one newsgroup?)

Worldwide licensed and unlicensed adds the Sachens, Gluk games in Spain, HES games in Australia, and probably some others.

And that's just the retail stuff.

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Tulpa

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

3 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

So now you're taking a deep dive in the opposite direction?

Nope. To disagree with the way you collect is an objection that I have been a victim of. So I have agreed with every aspect that is tied to you, the collector, while disagreeing with your emotional needs to act like you are right.

Because of that, I used your own quote as a means to agree with the meaning it holds. Not your point, as you have contradicted yourself multiple times. Among the other issues that I will not state here. Which has you being the one that is doing just that. Simply because your own quote is completely different from what you want it to be. 

19 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The full US NES retail library has been established for literally decades.

The Kenner Star Wars collection debuted in early 1978. Yet, there are dedicated collectors who have not let that stop them from labelling every weapon variant, every toy variant, every card variant, every bag variant, and even every bubble variant. To the point one of those collectors attacked CAS (ala Ross Barr) for using a piece of data that was established on a website without their permission.

With that said, making the statement you have made contradicts the point you tried to make when you said "a complete set is incomplete if anything is omitted." Granted that I was paraphrasing, but that is literally what you did say. With me agreeing with you on that point, just like I originally agreed that your list is perfect for your way of collecting. 

22 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

By saying you're trying to establish what is on the list is basically you trying to reinvent the wheel.

For beginners, "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit one's theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

"The list" was first established by every company, and every factory that was hired to make the product. It is not a complete list because, in the case of the NES, finding every individual list and putting it together is more of an impossible task than an improbable one.

Because of that, by removing the impossible leaves on with the improbable. And since the wheel has been reinvented numerous times, with an airless tire being in the works, the probability of a complete collection excluding ROM variants is the most valid probable option for those who want to have fun collecting NES titles while not having your budget. 

26 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

There are so many inherent flaws in your post that it would take me hours to reply, and it's clear to me that you're more or less irrational beyond all hope.

So being me autistic makes me irrational, huh? 

"Rational decisions and thoughts are based on reason rather than on emotion."

For beginners, the majority of my emotions are tied to anxiety. This is because even after I received my Asperger's diagnosis, the attacks on anything I believed in continued. Because of that I spent the past decade alone trying to at least return to my collecting roots, while I wait and hope that something good happens.

Because of that, nothing I said had me dismiss you as a collector. Just like everything I said had me believe that your way of collecting, and defining what you feel is a complete set, is best suited for you. Something you are willing to dismiss because you being "right" is more important than the damage you have done to me while doing it.

Here is more on who I am: https://www.aane.org/living-asperger-syndrome-adults/

I should point out that after I tried out hypnosis, the analytical end of my thinking has greatly sharpened. While my social reasoning has me feel like scenarios (similar to the ones you are putting me through) are signs that I might have disassociation. As opposed to my desire to be a good person being overshadowed by my own anxieties.

30 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

But basically, look at the trading card analogies.  You have your base set - the generally accepted list of what constitutes a set.

Stadium Events is (technically) a limited chase variant that is more of a 'holy grail'-level add-on than it is a plausible addition. And I say that because I used to collect trading cards, want to do that again, because it motivates me (and keeps my budget in check). It is also why I never said that adding Stadium Events is wrong, but rather not mandatory for those who cannot own it. 

So again... You disregarding my feelings on not wanting to argue, atop of every other attack you made, is what I wanted to avoid when I joined VGS. But since you care more about your wants, I suggest you continue if you want to be the reason why I quit being a member. 

Otherwise, drop the elitist attitude. Realize that I think you are better than that. And follow that up by realizing that I could have easily blocked you if I wanted to. With me trying to respect you being the reason why I didn't. 

[Estil | 1,265]

Here's another quote (well I'm paraphrasing from memory) from the Beckett Baseball Card Almanac that I think should be the first rule, the Golden Rule for any collecting sort of hobby:

There are no set rules for collecting cards.  What you collect, how much you spend, and how much time you put into your hobby are entirely up to you.

To which I should also add that a good collection truly worth the name should reflect the desires and personality of its owner...which it pretty much inevitably does.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Estil

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Nope. To disagree with the way you collect is an objection that I have been a victim of. So I have agreed with every aspect that is tied to you, the collector, while disagreeing with your emotional needs to act like you are right.

Because of that, I used your own quote as a means to agree with the meaning it holds. Not your point, as you have contradicted yourself multiple times. Among the other issues that I will not state here. Which has you being the one that is doing just that. Simply because your own quote is completely different from what you want it to be. 

The Kenner Star Wars collection debuted in early 1978. Yet, there are dedicated collectors who have not let that stop them from labelling every weapon variant, every toy variant, every card variant, every bag variant, and even every bubble variant. To the point one of those collectors attacked CAS (ala Ross Barr) for using a piece of data that was established on a website without their permission.

With that said, making the statement you have made contradicts the point you tried to make when you said "a complete set is incomplete if anything is omitted." Granted that I was paraphrasing, but that is literally what you did say. With me agreeing with you on that point, just like I originally agreed that your list is perfect for your way of collecting. 

For beginners, "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit one's theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

"The list" was first established by every company, and every factory that was hired to make the product. It is not a complete list because, in the case of the NES, finding every individual list and putting it together is more of an impossible task than an improbable one.

Because of that, by removing the impossible leaves on with the improbable. And since the wheel has been reinvented numerous times, with an airless tire being in the works, the probability of a complete collection excluding ROM variants is the most valid probable option for those who want to have fun collecting NES titles while not having your budget. 

So being me autistic makes me irrational, huh? 

"Rational decisions and thoughts are based on reason rather than on emotion."

For beginners, the majority of my emotions are tied to anxiety. This is because even after I received my Asperger's diagnosis, the attacks on anything I believed in continued. Because of that I spent the past decade alone trying to at least return to my collecting roots, while I wait and hope that something good happens.

Because of that, nothing I said had me dismiss you as a collector. Just like everything I said had me believe that your way of collecting, and defining what you feel is a complete set, is best suited for you. Something you are willing to dismiss because you being "right" is more important than the damage you have done to me while doing it.

Here is more on who I am: https://www.aane.org/living-asperger-syndrome-adults/

I should point out that after I tried out hypnosis, the analytical end of my thinking has greatly sharpened. While my social reasoning has me feel like scenarios (similar to the ones you are putting me through) are signs that I might have disassociation. As opposed to my desire to be a good person being overshadowed by my own anxieties.

Stadium Events is (technically) a limited chase variant that is more of a 'holy grail'-level add-on than it is a plausible addition. And I say that because I used to collect trading cards, want to do that again, because it motivates me (and keeps my budget in check). It is also why I never said that adding Stadium Events is wrong, but rather not mandatory for those who cannot own it. 

So again... You disregarding my feelings on not wanting to argue, atop of every other attack you made, is what I wanted to avoid when I joined VGS. But since you care more about your wants, I suggest you continue if you want to be the reason why I quit being a member. 

Otherwise, drop the elitist attitude. Realize that I think you are better than that. And follow that up by realizing that I could have easily blocked you if I wanted to. With me trying to respect you being the reason why I didn't. 

That...actually explains a lot man.  I'm gonna not bother refuting point by point because I think our whole discourse has been on a fundamental misunderstanding on both our parts, as you're not claiming what I thought, and I'm not trying to attack or dissuade you.  Thing is, I didn't know you have autism (though I should've probably picked up on it through our discourse), which changes the way you perceive the world, as well as the way you think, from the baseline.  I myself am neurodivergent, though in a different way (bipolar disorder), so while I don't understand what it's like for you, I do understand how our differences colour our everyday interactions.  My biggest gripe is that you're suggesting people are "adding" SE, and that it's a "chase variant."  SE is rare, sure, but was never meant to be anything other than a standard retail release.  In that regard, it's no different from Little Samson or Clash at Demonhead.  SE is part of the main set.  Duck Tales gold cart would be a chase variant that once chooses or excludes at leisure.  Basically comes down to semantics - I'm not trying to say people have to have SE or their collection isn't good enough, nor am I saying they shouldn't pass on it if they can't/don't wish to spend the money on it.  However, my thinking on it is what I mentioned before with my comic reference - for a full run of Amazing Fantasy comics, you'd need AF 15.  Some might decide that they can't afford it and simply go for the full set minus one.  Others may buy a reprinted copy and have their full "reader's" set, and there's nothing wrong with that either.  But the distinction between each needs to be made, as neither is a true "full set" of Amazing Fantasy comics.  But again, as mentioned by you AND Estil, the ultimate goal of collecting is to be happy with what you collect, and enjoy the journey.  I'm not in any way trying to diminish what you have, or what you want.  I hope you achieve your goals, and short of that, I hope you find happiness in the journey.  I'm also not wanting to dictate what you should and should not desire for your personal collection.  And I certainly don't have any intention of attacking you.  I may attack your position, but I bear no ill will or animosity for you as a human being, and personal attacks are not my thing.  I'll try and be a bit more careful in my word choice and tone (can't promise 100% though, but I'll do my best), and I really do want you to know that my intention was not to hurt you in any way.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

39 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

  Thing is, I didn't know you have autism (though I should've probably picked up on it through our discourse), which changes the way you perceive the world, as well as the way you think, from the baseline.  

My favourite part. I got my autism diagnosis 3 years ago and have become much more aware of the lack of awareness around neurodiversity. We shouldn't respond to anyone without first trying to comprehend the struggles of how that person may perceive the world around them.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

16 hours ago, Estil said:

I thought both NES and SNES each had about 750ish US releases?

 

11 hours ago, Tulpa said:

677 is the licensed North American set most recognize. Yes, that includes Stadium Events. European licensed exclusives adds another 30 games. Mah Jong was a licensed release exclusive to Hong Kong.

768 is the North American retail list, licensed and unlicensed, but it has some oddities like Cheetahmen II, which wasn't released officially, and Myriad, which also has some shaky retail origins (was it ever sold outside the one newsgroup?)

[ThePhleo | 2,185]

As an NES CIB set chaser: Thinking in absolutes is boring and contributed to the worthy death of the fullset collecting scene.

Collect what you like, and screw whoever says otherwise.

Stop trying to make list bend to rules and just document *what* exists, and what the thing in your hands actually is, and let the list generate itself. Your missing the forest to the trees.

...

Besides, we all know that your set is incomplete unless you have a Legend of Zelda, with CAUTION underlined, and a purple Ganon at the end. Ya bunch of cornball c**ksuckers. (sega reference)

And I dip.

[PuppyWaffles | 1,853]

11 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

My favourite part. I got my autism diagnosis 3 years ago and have become much more aware of the lack of awareness around neurodiversity. We shouldn't respond to anyone without first trying to comprehend the struggles of how that person may perceive the world around them.

Speaking to someone face to face I understand this, but on a forum even simple responses get misunderstood due to it being text. It would be extremely hard for someone to know. 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

On 3/15/2022 at 11:04 PM, Code Monkey said:

My favourite part. I got my autism diagnosis 3 years ago and have become much more aware of the lack of awareness around neurodiversity. We shouldn't respond to anyone without first trying to comprehend the struggles of how that person may perceive the world around them.

I 100% agree. Plus I should add that I was diagnosed in 2005. And that my diagnosis was Asperger's <-(link). (The ICD-11 still says that it is an Autism sub-type.)

And I will just say that diagnosis helped me find ways to better understand people. Because that is how I managed to get my first freelance writing job with Beckett. During their Dragon Ball Z publication days.

However... I do not like the fact I had to repeat the fact I am not neurotypical as a means to have a situation to stop. There is no excuse to not understand a person. And while my typing can be confusing at times, I always try to respect all opposing point of views. Because it was one of the things I had to teach myself since the diagnosis.

But beyond that, I am burnt out on trying to fit in. (Thus this being my *praying* last response here.)

So I will just show interest in what others get, post a purchase-based update that I hope some will like, and hope that I can reboot my business development goals here.

With the last part being an irony. Because one of my cousins <-(link) co-created both Rock Band and Dance Central. Yet she has no advice because my starting product is going to be t-shirt related. 

[OptOut | 8,886]

On 3/16/2022 at 4:05 AM, Gloves said:

 

OG's will understand:

 

 

Dentists will understand:

 

[Foochie776 | 1,052]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:05 PM, Gloves said:

 

OG's will understand:

You’ve made my day