Definition of a "Complete Set"?

[Tulpa | 3,506]

11 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The 2000 copies was likely accurate, as while Nintendo had a minimum number of units per order (iirc it was around 10000, but I could be mistaken there), there's nothing that said that order couldn't have been filled incrementally, meaning that they could send out the first batch to stores and restock after sales went through.

Alternatively, Bandai being one of the first third party North American publishers, could have had either an exception to the 10,000 copies threshold, or was publishing those games before that minimum was established. 10,000 was quoted by Howard Phillips, but I've never seen anything that said it was started in 1986 when the third party games started publishing.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

1 minute ago, Tulpa said:

Alternatively, Bandai being one of the first third party North American publishers, could have had either an exception to the 10,000 copies threshold, or was publishing those games before that minimum was established. 10,000 was quoted by Howard Phillips, but I've never seen anything that said it was started in 1986 when the third party games started publishing.

True, but it was likely established by 1988 when Stadium Events was released.  Though it's indeed possible that they asked for an exception to be made for SE as well, since it's obviously a niche product.  I would imagine other games that required a peripheral to play that was sold separately from the game would also fit the bill for such an exception.  It's also possible that there was a reduced limit for such games overall.  It's really tough to say without any sort of internal documentation.  I'd love to see some of the old contracts if the paperwork still exists in an archive somewhere...though odds are it got shredded at some point.

[Tulpa | 3,506]

I thought SE was 1987.

Without knowing definitively when the minimum was established, it's all up in the air anyway.

 

And I agree that SE should be in the set if you want to call it a full set (and even then there are additional qualifiers.) If it was a $50 game, there wouldn't even be a debate about it. It's easy enough to say licensed NA retail set minus SE if that's what you truly have.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Tulpa

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I thought SE was 1987.

Without knowing definitively when the minimum was established, it's all up in the air anyway.

 

And I agree that SE should be in the set if you want to call it a full set (and even then there are additional qualifiers.) If it was a $50 game, there wouldn't even be a debate about it. It's easy enough to say licensed NA retail set minus SE if that's what you truly have.

You're right, I was looking at the WCTM release date by mistake.  It was indeed '87.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

19 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

In conclusion, unless someone provides actual evidence of a limited run (sales numbers, production numbers, etc, from the source), or that a recall ever happened, then there is simply no evidence to have it not count toward a full set, licensed or otherwise, and indeed, there is more evidence for it to be included rather than excluded.

First off, a lot of what you are saying sounds condescending.

Second off, I said to you (and edited in hopes that you would get it) that I am not trying to change your mind. While I also tried to point out that people make an effort to explain why a game like Stadium Events has the right to be sub-categorized for those who cannot afford it.

And third off, I am done trying to reason with you. So have fun continuing whatever you want to call that.

All I will say is that if you put that amount of energy into knowing me, you would know that I have spent more than a decade studying about the facts I tried to offer. With reasons being tied to the fact I wanted to enjoy collecting.

With that said... I'm not going to reason with you after that "point" you made. So cheers to your "victory". 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

And the rest?

I have found that the whole sub-categorization to be a great way to decide what qualifies as a full set for the individual collector. With me basically using select Transformers collectors as a way for me to understand portions of this.

In that case, there are those who will include a Japanese variant because the NA piece is harder to find. Or even add the JP variant because it is a variant. While others will not do that because their collection is based on a sub-categorized full set. As in they only collect something that does not include every figure.

Which is why I said in the case of Stadium Events that those who cannot afford an original copy, and do not want a foreign copy, should go ahead and sub-categorize it. That way they can say the experts have found that a first print copy of World Class Track Meet (aka Stadium Events) is both a test market and a foreign print variant.

With that having them say they are not collecting test market, foreign print, etc. copies of a game. Thus they do not need those to have a full standard set, but do need them if they want to go past that goal. Just like how I will not collect a developer/publisher/etc. if I cannot add a first press copy into my own collection.

That is all I will contribute to this since my stance on what Stadium Events is somehow "wrong". So instead of wasting all of your collective time, I am going to waste mine by working on my own goals. So... Cheers. 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

10 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

First off, a lot of what you are saying sounds condescending.

Second off, I said to you (and edited in hopes that you would get it) that I am not trying to change your mind. While I also tried to point out that people make an effort to explain why a game like Stadium Events has the right to be sub-categorized for those who cannot afford it.

And third off, I am done trying to reason with you. So have fun continuing whatever you want to call that.

All I will say is that if you put that amount of energy into knowing me, you would know that I have spent more than a decade studying about the facts I tried to offer. With reasons being tied to the fact I wanted to enjoy collecting.

With that said... I'm not going to reason with you after that "point" you made. So cheers to your "victory". 

First point - That's because the whole argument is asinine.

Second point - I understand that, which is good, because you won't change my mind.  But you basically spelled out exactly what I made in the second part - that the only reason people are trying to explain SE away is because of the cost involved.  I cannot afford it either, but I would never in a million years say my set is complete without it.  Why?  BECAUSE MY SET WILL NEVER BE COMPLETE WITHOUT IT.  If you can't afford it, that's fine, but to go on an endless tirade of tangents to explain it away so that you can tell people your set is a complete set is, quite literally, stupid.

Third point - I wouldn't call anything you were trying to do an attempt at reason.  If someone told you they had a complete set of Amazing Fantasy comics but they didn't have #15, you wouldn't count it.  And if they had a 90s era reprint or something instead of an original, you might say they had a full "reader's" set, but no collector would say that it was a true complete run.  So without SE, just say it's a set minus SE, or call it a "player's" set, but it's not, nor will it ever be, a full NES set.

Fourth point - If you're wanting to compare dick sizes, I've spent well over two decades collecting games.  I have actually made meaningful contributions to the community, and have been researching actual facts about NES games for about as long.  I also do it for the same reasons you do - I enjoy this hobby and everything that comes with it.  I hold no animosity to you, despite what my tone may suggest.  I'm also not pulling shit out of my ass, and provided actual evidence to support my arguments.  You posted a blog post full of supposition with nothing concrete to back it up to support yours.  So unless you post something concrete, your position is simply untenable.

Final point - See my response to your third point.  You're not trying to "reason" with anyone, you're trying to force others to accept the limitations you have put on your own collection so you can feel better about it, rather than simply accepting you'd never have a complete set without selling a kidney to achieve it.  I also don't have SE, and likely will never be able to afford it, but I also don't go around trying to exclude it because I'm broke.

10 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

And the rest?

I have found that the whole sub-categorization to be a great way to decide what qualifies as a full set for the individual collector. With me basically using select Transformers collectors as a way for me to understand portions of this.

In that case, there are those who will include a Japanese variant because the NA piece is harder to find. Or even add the JP variant because it is a variant. While others will not do that because their collection is based on a sub-categorized full set. As in they only collect something that does not include every figure.

Which is why I said in the case of Stadium Events that those who cannot afford an original copy, and do not want a foreign copy, should go ahead and sub-categorize it. That way they can say the experts have found that a first print copy of World Class Track Meet (aka Stadium Events) is both a test market and a foreign print variant.

With that having them say they are not collecting test market, foreign print, etc. copies of a game. Thus they do not need those to have a full standard set, but do need them if they want to go past that goal. Just like how I will not collect a developer/publisher/etc. if I cannot add a first press copy into my own collection.

That is all I will contribute to this since my stance on what Stadium Events is somehow "wrong". So instead of wasting all of your collective time, I am going to waste mine by working on my own goals. So... Cheers. 

I am not saying you're wrong to exclude it from your personal collection for any of these reasons.  Nor would I ever suggest you should be forced to count it on your personal list.  I'm simply stating that you're putting a lot of effort trying to make a category that is simply a complicated way of saying "minus Stadium Events" as a qualifier.  If someone excludes unlicensed games, they say they are gunning for a licensed set.  This is not a COMPLETE set, but it gives enough of a description to know exactly what they are talking about.  So if you're going for licensed games without SE, just SAY that.  And if you're at the goal, you can say you have a full licensed set minus SE and feel damn proud of your accomplishment.  I'm not trying to diminish your collecting goals.  I'm questioning why you're trying to find a way to officially exclude a legitimate release.  As for the point of subbing in foreign versions of a game that are cheaper has a way to define it too - a player's library.  But in that case, specific examples would have to be mentioned if the person every sold off their stuff.  But if not, simply saying they have a playable library is enough.

So again, I don't really care what you decide to collect.  Just stop trying to rationalize the exclusion of SE when it simply makes zero sense to do it.  Instead, just be happy with what you choose to pursue.  I hope you eventually achieve your goal, whatever it is.

Edited March 14, 2022 by the_wizard_666

[T-Pac | 7,552]

@the_wizard_666 I've always been a fan of that "player's set" vs "collector's set" distinction.

I'm no set-collector by any means, so it hardly concerns me, but my utilitarian brain doesn't see a whole lot of benefit from owning ... say ... Punch-Out! and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out! for a gamer library.

But then again, I'm apt to get certain classic games across all of my consoles (gotta have Dig Dug on Famicom and Atari, right?) - so I can't exactly call myself a bastion for eliminating collection-redundancy.

-CasualCart

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

MPTO and Punch Out are the same game and shouldn't matter more or less than SE/WCTM or ESPN Extreme Games and 1Xtreme. Delete Punch Out from lists. Do it. TEACH THE CONTROVERSY.

Also WCTM should be removed from lists. It's way closer to other ignored re-release subgroups like greatest hits than SE is to a "limited edition". You can get a WCTM if you want it in your Stadium Events slot, but the list should have the original name Stadium Events and a footnote that it was re-released as WCTM IMO.

Also all these lists are made up and limiting the NES library to only games that were licensed and came in the US is super arbitrary anyway. 676 is just a popular list of random NES games to collect just like 677 is. Neither is right 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

17 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

First point - That's because the whole argument is asinine.

Realistically, everything you are saying is asinine. And I say that out of respect to you. 

Because the ONLY person arguing about that, when it comes to the two of us, is YOU. Period. And you telling me what I can and cannot do makes you an asshole. Period. Because only assholes put their wants before the needs of others.

Again, period. Especially since your comments are tied to the reason why I created said quote in my signature.

So here is a little idea that you can choose to do instead of being an obsessive-compulsive ass to me: Just say that the reason you want Stadium Events in YOUR COLLECTION is because it makes YOUR COLLECTION feel complete.

I mean is it so hard to say that your set would not be a "full set" if you do not add a specific game like Stadium Events to your collection? That makes complete, rational sense to me.

With me saying that because you are the_wizard_666 and not some poser who overpays for graded common games because it makes them feel like they are superior to those who chose not to. 

But you would have known that if you ate a Snickers. Because you make asinine statements when you are hangry. 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

4 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

MPTO and Punch Out are the same game and shouldn't matter more or less than SE/WCTM or ESPN Extreme Games and 1Xtreme. Delete Punch Out from lists. Do it. TEACH THE CONTROVERSY.

Also WCTM should be removed from lists. It's way closer to other ignored re-release subgroups like greatest hits than SE is to a "limited edition". You can get a WCTM if you want it in your Stadium Events slot, but the list should have the original name Stadium Events and a footnote that it was re-released as WCTM IMO.

Also all these lists are made up and limiting the NES library to only games that were licensed and came in the US is super arbitrary anyway. 676 is just a popular list of random NES games to collect just like 677 is. Neither is right 

You forgot to add ROM, screw, and print variants to that number. 

[fcgamer | 4,725]

5 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

Also all these lists are made up and limiting the NES library to only games that were licensed*

*Licensed in the region you're collecting.

Videomation is both licensed and unlicensed, same with the unreleased Time Diver, etc etc

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

2 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Realistically, everything you are saying is asinine. And I say that out of respect to you. 

Because the ONLY person arguing about that, when it comes to the two of us, is YOU. Period. And you telling me what I can and cannot do makes you an asshole. Period. Because only assholes put their wants before the needs of others.

Again, period. Especially since your comments are tied to the reason why I created said quote in my signature.

So here is a little idea that you can choose to do instead of being an obsessive-compulsive ass to me: Just say that the reason you want Stadium Events in YOUR COLLECTION is because it makes YOUR COLLECTION feel complete.

I mean is it so hard to say that your set would not be a "full set" if you do not add a specific game like Stadium Events to your collection? That makes complete, rational sense to me.

With me saying that because you are the_wizard_666 and not some poser who overpays for graded common games because it makes them feel like they are superior to those who chose not to. 

But you would have known that if you ate a Snickers. Because you make asinine statements when you are hangry. 

You're literally the only person here that's being irrational.  Nobody else is trying to find a roundabout way to describe a near-complete collection.  Sheesh.  Like I said, collect what you want, but don't say you have a full set if you don't have a full set.  Full stop.  Caveats are fine - plenty of people have an SE repro, foreign copy, or simply exclude it and say they have a full set minus one.  Plenty of others strike off other titles for various reasons, and again, that is perfectly alright.  But you are arguing to make the definition of a full set to not include SE, and trying to come up with the flimsiest of reasons to justify that exclusion, when the sole reason you don't want it to count is because you can't afford it.  And that right there is what makes the argument asinine.  YOU CAN COLLECT WHAT YOU WANT AND BE HAPPY WITH IT.  I'm not saying you HAVE to get SE to make your collection complete, I'm saying you won't have a complete NES collection without it.  When you say your collection is complete, that means you've collected everything you want to acquire and are done with it.  But when you say you have a complete collection, that means you have everything released within that collection.  It's a subtle difference, but it does have major connotations to it that seem to be flying over your head.  And at the end of the day, if evidence comes forward that gives a reason for SE (or any other game for that matter) to be removed from what is considered a complete NES library, I for one am willing to consider it.  Hell, in SE's case, it'd be a 5 digit purchase I don't have to make to complete my set.  But much like when people want to add something to the list of official releases, the burden of proof should be on the person arguing the point, and the evidence needs to stand on it's own merits.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,089]

If SE didn't count for a full set, it wouldn't be worth tens of thousands of dollars........

Something to think about... 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

7 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

MPTO and Punch Out are the same game and shouldn't matter more or less than SE/WCTM or ESPN Extreme Games and 1Xtreme. Delete Punch Out from lists. Do it. TEACH THE CONTROVERSY.

Also WCTM should be removed from lists. It's way closer to other ignored re-release subgroups like greatest hits than SE is to a "limited edition". You can get a WCTM if you want it in your Stadium Events slot, but the list should have the original name Stadium Events and a footnote that it was re-released as WCTM IMO.

Also all these lists are made up and limiting the NES library to only games that were licensed and came in the US is super arbitrary anyway. 676 is just a popular list of random NES games to collect just like 677 is. Neither is right 

I know the first part is more or less a joke, but Punch Out is the best comparison to use for SE/WCTM.  Can't believe I missed that one But yeah, the game is fundamentally the same, but some changes were made to the ROM before being rereleased.  The only difference here is that the two Punch Out games were released by the same publisher.  And yeah, if you're gunning for a player's library, then by all means, remove one or the other from what you wish to collect. 

On your second point, I fully agree.  SE is not a "limited edition" release by any stretch of the imagination.  I disagree about "Greatest Hits" games being ignored though...there's some people out there that actually shoot for those kind of variant subsets.  But I do agree that WCTM is closer to that than SE is to a limited edition title.

And on your third point, I'm with you - any list that doesn't include unlicensed games is a flawed list.  But I get it - people want to make it easier to get a full set, and when unlicensed games are in the mix, there are a bunch of doozies that can take years to even find a copy, nevermind buy one.  Thankfully, the "unlicensed is the devil" crowd have made it much more affordable to complete the set than it would've been otherwise.  I mean, Myriad 6-in-1 should've cost me a kidney instead of just a few Gs, as it is significantly rarer than SE is.

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

I genuinely think Punch Out should probably be removed from “the list”! I mean at this point the list is just the list. It’s a console collected by old men who want those particular 677 games, so trying to define games into or out a list set in stone for decades is pointless. But all the games that are fundamentally the same game are just that game IMO. Title variants, publisher variants, who’s to say that matters more than a localization, box art, or code variant. And my subjective definition still leaves a bunch of new weird cases. Is Doki Doki Panic the same game as Mario 2? No… but also yes?

Ideally no matter how a list is defined I just hope it points out all the weird cases in the footnotes to let people make their own list and be more informed about the cool nuances of the set so they’re not just checking boxes!

[TheGameCollector | 18]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

And on your third point, I'm with you - any list that doesn't include unlicensed games is a flawed list.  But I get it - people want to make it easier to get a full set, and when unlicensed games are in the mix, there are a bunch of doozies that can take years to even find a copy, nevermind buy one.  Thankfully, the "unlicensed is the devil" crowd have made it much more affordable to complete the set than it would've been otherwise.  I mean, Myriad 6-in-1 should've cost me a kidney instead of just a few Gs, as it is significantly rarer than SE is.

I'm kind of thankful just for the fact it makes things like Codemasters/Camerica and Tengen games more affordable than they otherwise would be. I really enjoy Dizzy, Big Nose and Tengen's Ms. Pac-Man for example. When it comes to Tetris I prefer the look and audio of the Nintendo version though.

Edited March 15, 2022 by TheGameCollector

[TheGameCollector | 18]

On 11/8/2020 at 6:48 AM, fcgamer said:

First off, it's only recently that ice been hearing the whole "Aladdin Deck Enhancer" wasn't released schtick, do we actually have proof of that? 

I thought I had proof of the Aladdin Deck Enhancer at least being found by 1998 or 1999. Look at any FuncoLand games list in the NES section under accessories. I remember the Aladdin being listed there.

Does anyone have a scan or photo of the FuncoLand newspaper NES accessories list to verify? The month and year at the top of the newspaper-style list should be taken into account. In late 1999 they had Dreamcast and Neo Geo Pocket Color added.

 

If I have any of these lists left they are probably in my storage unit, in a folder, in a plastic bin with the former contents of my file cabinet from before I moved.

If anyone saved some, I would look for it on your oldest one, then look again on your newest one.

 

Does anyone recall when that Aladdin Deck Enhancer was first found?

 

Weird the Dec-Jan 2000 one I see posted in Bing's images doesn't have it. I could've sworn that the FuncoLand list was the first place I even heard of it. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by TheGameCollector

[fcgamer | 4,725]

33 minutes ago, TheGameCollector said:

I'm kind of thankful just for the fact it makes things like Codemasters/Camerica and Tengen games more affordable than they otherwise would be. I really enjoy Dizzy, Big Nose and Tengen's Ms. Pac-Man for example. When it comes to Tetris I prefer the look and audio of the Nintendo version though.

Tetris infringed on IP, therefore it's a pirate

[TheGameCollector | 18]

This website seems to have the timeline of the Aladdin down to the month. It sounds like it had a limited number of retailers in February 1993 in USA and Canada for $39.99, a discovered batch again in 1996, then 2005 is when it was found in mass amounts and sold on ebay.

 

Aladdin Deck Enhancer (www.nesworld.com)

[fcgamer | 4,725]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

But I get it - people want to make it easier to get a full set, and when unlicensed games are in the mix, there are a bunch of doozies that can take years to even find a copy, nevermind buy one. 

I've been saying that for years, all the NA cronies would jump on me saying I couldn't say that, surely the reason for the exclusions wasn't about ease and cost.

Let's grant everyone a full set award, cut out pics and post them on a loaded flash cart lol

[Estil | 1,265]

Geez in my other hobby (trading cards) a complete set just means you have all the cards of that set from 1-792 or 1-660 or whatnot.  You can also have what's called a "master set" which is both the regular set and all the inserts (well not counting the really low serial numbered ones).  Or in 50s-60s sets a "master set" can mean also having all the possible errors and/or variations and what have you.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

12 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

You're literally the only person here that's being irrational.

For fucks sakes. The only "irrational" thing I have done in this topic is try to show you respect. Period. 

Every issue you have accused me of doing was all you. Period. All I did was look at this from a non-neurological standpoint, add what others have said in similar fashion, and do so while I tried to respect your way of handling this subject.

With that said...

Stadium Events is only needed if your set requires it. If not, just get World Class Track Meet and call it a day.

That is all I am going to say. Please read my signature's quote, and do that for everybody's sake. Because I am 100% burnt out mentally, and will be doing a sabbatical for the next few days with hopes that you'll eat that Snickers. 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

9 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Tetris infringed on IP, therefore it's a pirate

Tengen thought they had the rights to it, and it turned out they didn't.  I wouldn't call that a "pirate" because their version was made in good faith, and was discontinued when the courts sided with Nintendo on the rights issue.  (I know you were being facetious, just clarifying for those who may not know)

[fcgamer | 4,725]

6 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Tengen thought they had the rights to it, and it turned out they didn't.  I wouldn't call that a "pirate" because their version was made in good faith, and was discontinued when the courts sided with Nintendo on the rights issue.  (I know you were being facetious, just clarifying for those who may not know)

Well, if were a Chinese / Taiwanense company and a single sound effect were borrowed, it'd be considered pirated so

Which would lead us to another question, if a company made a game with infringing IP, for sale in a country that doesn't recognise the copyright laws of the other country, would it be pirated? Lol. But that's a fun topic for a different thread.

Anyways, I think the easiest way is to take an Atari approach to full sets, everything goes on,and no one has one.