Definition of a "Complete Set"?

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

3 hours ago, Mr. CIB said:

What court case? In what country? Can't be Atari Games Corp. and Tengen, Inc., Plaintiffs-appellants, v. Nintendo of America Inc. and Nintendo Co., Ltd., Defendants-appellees, 975 F.2d 832 (Fed. Cir. 1992)

Because that clearly wasn't the case in this ruling. In 1990 the court granted Nintendo all rights to go after unlicensed games by Tengen games that were sold in stores by retailers. In the case I referenced above cir. 1992, Nintendo won the case to stop Tengen's unapproved games permanently. Atari also had a lawsuit which caused the FTC to look into Nintendo practices and the eased them to avoid it. Point me to what case you are referencing?

You're right, they did win it, thanks to their lawyer Mr. Kirby. Nintendo was so grateful, they named one of their characters after him.

[T-Pac | 7,534]

Over the past 7 or 8 years that I've been involved in the game-collecting hobby, I've come to understand that when someone says "full / complete set", they generally mean "one of each licensed game released for that specific platform in their region of residence".

Is that, by definition, an accurate standard for a "full-set"? No, but it is widely understood, and most people add qualifiers if their "full set" differs from this common usage.

It might be tedious, but clarifying the contents of your "set" isn't difficult and it helps avoid confusion and frustration. I personally love the fact that we can't define full sets for classic gaming, because it makes the hobby more interesting, and I enjoy hearing everyone's unique take.

-CasualCart

[PoppaLarge | 1]

This thread is a delight to read to get everyone's takes on definitions for "full set" and qualifiers and everything. It came up a couple times, but I'm curious to hear what the takes are for a "full 2600 set" or even a "full 2600 retail set," knowing it's close to impossible to narrow down due to the vast amount of one-off games and mail order exclusives and "basement-made" games.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

54 minutes ago, PoppaLarge said:

This thread is a delight to read to get everyone's takes on definitions for "full set" and qualifiers and everything. It came up a couple times, but I'm curious to hear what the takes are for a "full 2600 set" or even a "full 2600 retail set," knowing it's close to impossible to narrow down due to the vast amount of one-off games and mail order exclusives and "basement-made" games.

For a full set I’d include Birthday Mania and Gamma Attack and Red Sea Crossing but it’s basically impossible, so either become an Atari guy who only collects as much Atari as one man can, or collect the much more attainable publisher sets.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

On 11/3/2020 at 10:47 AM, DefaultGen said:

For a full set I’d include Birthday Mania and Gamma Attack and Red Sea Crossing but it’s basically impossible, so either become an Atari guy who only collects as much Atari as one man can, or collect the much more attainable publisher sets.

I personally think this is the best way of collecting.

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:55 AM, CasualCart said:

Over the past 7 or 8 years that I've been involved in the game-collecting hobby, I've come to understand that when someone says "full / complete set", they generally mean "one of each licensed game released for that specific platform in their region of residence".

Is that, by definition, an accurate standard for a "full-set"? No, but it is widely understood, and most people add qualifiers if their "full set" differs from this common usage.

It might be tedious, but clarifying the contents of your "set" isn't difficult and it helps avoid confusion and frustration. I personally love the fact that we can't define full sets for classic gaming, because it makes the hobby more interesting, and I enjoy hearing everyone's unique take.

-CasualCart

Gave this a sad face as historically, full set has included both licensed and unlicensed. Only in more recent times, when prices increased, did people start trying to change the meaning.

[T-Pac | 7,534]

9 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Gave this a sad face as historically, full set has included both licensed and unlicensed. Only in more recent times, when prices increased, did people start trying to change the meaning.

Very true - I specified that this "licensed-only" interpretation became common in the last 7 or 8 years. I'd say the shift happened right around 2012 when the hobby exploded and, unfortunately, unlicensed releases lost their footing for most collectors. I think by 2016, casual use of the of the term "full set" had essentially abandoned the idea of unlicensed inclusion altogether.

-CasualCart

[Tulpa | 3,492]

13 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

I think by 2016, casual use of the of the term "full set" had essentially abandoned the idea of unlicensed inclusion altogether.

Which is my main beef.

A full licensed set being the full set is a lazy classification. I understand people want to work towards achieving a set, and the licensed set is achievable (if expensive), but people are deluding themselves into making that "The Full Set."

Just accept that it's the full licensed set (with whatever regional qualifications are necessary) and leave it at that. Don't play cute with semantics.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Yeah, I also agree that a full NES set is obviously both licensed and unlicensed, and the licensed-only people are just deluding themselves, !!!!HOWEVER!!!!!  as a purchaser, I am extremely happy that this new idea of sidelining unlicensed games as lesser and unworthy has come about.  For the longest time, believe it or not, SE and Myriad were roughly the same price.  The same could be said of pretty much any comparatively rare licensed game to its unlicensed counterpart.  But once this whole "licensed set" thing came about, the licensed games all skyrocketed and the unlicensed games essentially rose at the same rate they always had, without the crazy upswing.  So as someone who still needs Myriad and all three Panesians, I am glad it has turned out this way, as it is going to save me thousands of dollars.

But from the standpoint of cataloging and categorization, obviously a licensed set is not a full NES set.  If I met someone and they told me they had a full set of US NES games, and then when they showed it to me it was missing all the unlicensed games,  I'd hardly call a set complete when the owner can't play great games like Micro Machines, Krazy Kreatures, Super Sprint, or...................... CHEETAHMEN II !!!

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

7 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

.............. CHEETAHMEN II !!!

I draw the line at Cheetahmen II (and the Aladdin Deck Enhancer games)

If it aint ever released then it aint matter.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

12 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

I draw the line at Cheetahmen II (and the Aladdin Deck Enhancer games)

If it aint ever released then it aint matter.

First off, it's only recently that ice been hearing the whole "Aladdin Deck Enhancer" wasn't released schtick, do we actually have proof of that? 

Either way, those two games are basically grandfathered in, imo. I draw the line at when a pallet of Police Academy or Air Ball turns up.

[8bitsupremacy | 208]

Just chiming in here, as a "full North American set" guy...I have discrepancy with the list that I voiced on NA back when that was a thing and here it is (hear me out):

The three Tengen carts, RBI/Gauntlet/Pac-man, are counted as 6 games on the list because there are 3 unlicensed black carts and then 3 officially licensed grey carts, despite being identical titles...everyone knows this to be true and it's fine, but there is a contradictory logic in terms of having all the Aladdin Deck Enhancer games that ALSO have gold standalone NES cart variants all be counted as if they are only 6 games instead of 12 (6 Aladdin and 6 Camerica NES carts)...they are entirely different carts and different releases so I think they should be notated as such...and if one is going to argue "well those Aladdin ones don't matter or count" then I will rebut with the fact that y'all count Dizzy the Adventurer, the Aladdin Deck Enhancer pack-in game, as it's own entity and part of the list...so the other 6 should be included as well, right?  RIGHT?!

Edited November 8, 2020 by 8bitsupremacy

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

7 minutes ago, 8bitsupremacy said:

Just chiming in here, as a "full North American set" guy...I have discrepancy with the list that I voiced on NA back when that was a thing and here it is (hear me out):

The three Tengen carts, RBI/Gauntlet/Pac-man, are counted as 6 games on the list because there are 3 unlicensed black carts and then 3 officially licensed grey carts, despite being identical titles...everyone knows this to be true and it's fine, but there is a contradictory logic in terms of having all the Aladdin Deck Enhancer games that ALSO have gold standalone NES cart variants all be counted as if they are only 6 games instead of 12 (6 Aladdin and 6 Camerica NES carts)...they are entirely different carts and different releases so I think they should be notated as such...and if one is going to argue "well those Aladdin ones don't matter or count" then I will rebut with the fact that y'all count Dizzy the Adventurer, the Aladdin Deck Enhancer pack-in game, as it's own entity and part of the list...so the other 6 should be included as well, right?  RIGHT?!

I think the main argument (if there ever was one) is that the classification of the release is what matters.

In general for the NES if it had a different publisher, or licensing status then it’s a different game.

Thats why the following is true for the most accepted version of “the list”

1. Impossible Mission II by SEI is separate from AVE
2. Six in One by Myriad is separate from Caltron
3. Mermaids of Atlantis by AVE is separate from Bubble Bath Babes by Panesian
4. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom by Mindscape is separate from Tengen
5. Pac-Man by Namco is separate from both the unlicensed and licensed version by Tengen
6. RBI Baseball by Tengen is separate from its licensed version
7. Gauntlet by Tengen is separate from its licensed version
8. Donkey Kong Classics is separate from Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr separately.
9. Sesame Street ABC & 123 is separate from Sesame Street ABC and Sesame Street 123 separately
10. Super Mario Bros. / Duck Hunt is separate from Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt separately
11. SMB/DH/WCTM is separate from Super Mario Bros., Duck Hunt, and World Class Track Meet separately
12. Super Spike VBall / Nintendo World Cup is separate from Super Spike VBall and Nintendo World Cup separately
13. Stadium Events is separate from World Class Track Meet, and SMB/DH/WCTM

The same logic doesn’t apply to even the NES cousin, Game Boy. There are PLENTY of publisher variants on that system but they all count as the same game.

There are also three major caveats that don’t count for some reason.

1. Sharedata Chiller isn’t real
2. AGCI Wally Bear isn’t real
3. Family Fun Fitness: Athletic World isn’t separate despite a title change even though Stadium Events is...wtf?

Then you hop across the pond and suddenly title changes don’t matter.

Action In New York? Totally just SCAT

Probotector? Totally just Contra

Snowboard Challenge? Totally just Heavy Shreddin’

...

Unless of course you look at the Classic Serie version of Mario Bros., then it’s a unique release.

[8bitsupremacy | 208]

3 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

There are also three major caveats that don’t count for some reason.

1. Sharedata Chiller isn’t real
2. AGCI Wally Bear isn’t real
3. Family Fun Fitness: Athletic World isn’t separate despite a title change even though Stadium Events is...wtf?

I am definitely guilty of 1 and 2, as I've always been aware of them but wrote them off as actually unattainable.  Number 3, I've always stood by as a separate release just a Stadium Events is considered to be.  Now please kindly scrub the text from 1 and 2 in these posts so I can continue to pretend they don't exist...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

4 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

1. Sharedata Chiller isn’t real
2. AGCI Wally Bear isn’t real

 

Show me a box (or even a manual, really) for either of those titles and I'll concede that they were released...

[Tulpa | 3,492]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Show me a box (or even a manual, really) for either of those titles and I'll concede that they were released...

I'm wondering those were salesmen samples, kind of a "Hey, your store sells Nintendo games? What about these?"

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

On 11/8/2020 at 10:24 AM, ThePhleo said:

I think the main argument (if there ever was one) is that the classification of the release is what matters.

In general for the NES if it had a different publisher, or licensing status then it’s a different game.

Thats why the following is true for the most accepted version of “the list”

1. Impossible Mission II by SEI is separate from AVE
2. Six in One by Myriad is separate from Caltron
3. Mermaids of Atlantis by AVE is separate from Bubble Bath Babes by Panesian
4. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom by Mindscape is separate from Tengen
5. Pac-Man by Namco is separate from both the unlicensed and licensed version by Tengen
6. RBI Baseball by Tengen is separate from its licensed version
7. Gauntlet by Tengen is separate from its licensed version
8. Donkey Kong Classics is separate from Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr separately.
9. Sesame Street ABC & 123 is separate from Sesame Street ABC and Sesame Street 123 separately
10. Super Mario Bros. / Duck Hunt is separate from Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt separately
11. SMB/DH/WCTM is separate from Super Mario Bros., Duck Hunt, and World Class Track Meet separately
12. Super Spike VBall / Nintendo World Cup is separate from Super Spike VBall and Nintendo World Cup separately
13. Stadium Events is separate from World Class Track Meet, and SMB/DH/WCTM

The same logic doesn’t apply to even the NES cousin, Game Boy. There are PLENTY of publisher variants on that system but they all count as the same game.

There are also three major caveats that don’t count for some reason.

1. Sharedata Chiller isn’t real
2. AGCI Wally Bear isn’t real
3. Family Fun Fitness: Athletic World isn’t separate despite a title change even though Stadium Events is...wtf?

Then you hop across the pond and suddenly title changes don’t matter.

Action In New York? Totally just SCAT

Probotector? Totally just Contra

Snowboard Challenge? Totally just Heavy Shreddin’

...

Unless of course you look at the Classic Serie version of Mario Bros., then it’s a unique release.

Re-do all lists from scratch. Mike Etler and NintendoAge had their time 10 and 20 years ago. We are older and wiser. Tengen licensed/unlicensed games are variants of the same game. World Class Track Meet is just a Stadium Events variant. There are 3 (ish?) variants of Impossible Mission II, they are the same exact game. Sharedata Chiller is real (or TBD more info, either way).

Taking cues from books, changing the title, publisher, or even content/typos inside a book does not change the fact that it is the same book. There aren't 8 Harry Potter books in the full set of Harry Potter books because count Philosopher's Stone separately from Sorcerer's Stone or Scholastic Press different from Bloombury Press. You've already pointed to Game Boy and there are a million other inconsistencies in "the lists".

So when does your book come out anyway.

Edited November 9, 2020 by DefaultGen

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

30 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

Sharedata Chiller is real (or TBD more info, either way).

Can you qualify this statement?  You wrote one sentence before this that all the Impossible Mission II's were variants of the exact same game, and one sentence before that you wrote that SE and WCTM were the same game.  How then is Sharedata Chiller even in an argument for consideration of being "real"?

To me, same code = same game; if the code is changed by even one byte, it's a different game.  SE and WCTM are different games.  Technically, the three licensed Tengen games are different games because the code is different from the unlicensed versions (presence versus absence of the "Licensed by Nintendo" spiel on the title screen).  In terms of unique game experiences, yeah, they're the same game, but technically, if you're comparing the code of both games, they are not "the same."  If you go looking for a ROM and can only find one ROM of a particular game in spite of there being physical variants of some manner of that game, then it's the same game.  However, if there are multiple versions of the ROM on the internet, then they are not exactly "the same" are they?  Speedrunners announce what version of a game they're playing for a reason...

So the real question is to what degree do you collect variants?  Packaging?  Publisher?  Advertising (CV III Trip to Drac's home town vs no contest)?  Code revisions (Castevania freezing on the Grim Reaper vs Revision A that is fixed)?  Title screens (Untouchables black vs blue title screens to match the variant packaging)?  It gets really gray really quickly and that's why it's hard to definitively tell other collectors what exactly should and shouldn't count.

But saying that SE and WCTM are "variants".... I mean, come on, man!!!  In terms of unique game experiences, yeah, they're the same game, but in terms of any other logical categorization you can think of, they are two different games.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Dr. Morbis

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Can you qualify this statement?  You wrote one sentence before this that all the Impossible Mission II's were variants of the exact same game, and one sentence before that you wrote that SE and WCTM were the same game.  How then is Sharedata Chiller even in an argument for consideration of being "real"?

To me, same code = same game; if the code is changed by even one byte, it's a different game.  SE and WCTM are different games.  Technically, the three licensed Tengen games are different games because the code is different from the unlicensed versions (presence versus absence of the "Licensed by Nintendo" spiel on the title screen).  If you go looking for a ROM and can only find one ROM of a particular game in spite of there being physical variants of some manner of that game, then it's the same game.  However, if there are multiple versions of the ROM on the internet, then they are not exactly "the same" are they?  Speedrunners announce what version of a game they're playing for a reason...

So the real question is to what degree do you collect variants?  Packaging?  Publisher?  Advertising (CV III Trip to Drac's home town vs no contest)?  Code revisions (Castevania freezing on the Grim Reaper vs Revision A that is fixed)?  Title screens (Untouchables black vs blue title screens to match the variant packaging)?  It gets really gray really quickly and that's why it's hard to definitively tell other collectors what exactly should and shouldn't count.

But saying that SE and WCTM are "variants".... I mean, come on, man!!!

As the owner of a rare variant I consider my game set complete without World Class Track Meet :V

Also, there’s a code revision in legend of Zelda where they fix a few bugs and I think they remove the TM from the title screen...no one can say its a different game because they fixed bugs.

Also, tons of NES games have code revisions. They’re marked with the letter “A” on the back of the cart sometimes.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

I collect all kinds of variants, I just don’t list them as different games. Stadium Events or Sharedata Chiller can be 10000x as collectible as their other versions but I wouldn’t count them as different games. Basically my “list” is one of each game, then variants/releases of that game listed underneath. Does your NES set list actually count early vs. late run Castlevanias as different games? Do screw variants count as different games then? Any difference at all?

There are too many minor differences that you could divide things based on. Title, game code, bug fixes, publisher, licensed status, physical differences like screws, etc. Now I just list each actual game once and document all the versions and variants of that game.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

9 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

Does your NES set list actually count early vs. late run Castlevanias as different games?

No, I was just pointing out that it's hard to know where to draw the line when it comes to different game/versus variant.  What prompted me to respond was the idea that SE and WCTM are "variants."  To me, if you're going for a full set, there is no way to disqualify either of these games due to the presence of one or the other.  They have different publishers AND different titles, to go along with the different title screens and code.  Yes, they are the same game experience, but from a "full set" standpoint, they are two different games.

In my mind, having a different publisher automatically makes a title count towards any list of games in a full set, as does having a different title.  That's why I've got Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom twice and SMB three times over; I wouldn't consider any NES library "complete" if it didn't have SMB, SMB/DH, and SMB/DH/ WCTM.  But, on the other hand, if you were just gathering a library of NES games to play, then obviously having all three of those is utterly redundant...

Edited November 9, 2020 by Dr. Morbis

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

No, I was just pointing out that it's hard to know where to draw the line when it comes to different game/versus variant.  What prompted me to respond was the idea that SE and WCTM are "variants."  To me, if you're going for a full set, there is no way to disqualify either of these games due to the presence of one or the other.  They have different publishers AND different titles, to go along with the different title screens and code.  Yes, they are the same game experience, but from a "full set" standpoint, they are two different games.

In my mind, having a different publisher automatically makes a title count towards any list of games in a full set, as does having a different title.  That's why I've got Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom twice and SMB three times over; I wouldn't consider any NES library "complete" if it didn't have SMB, SMB/DH, and SMB/DH/ WCTM.  But, on the other hand, if you were just gathering a library of NES games to play, then obviously having all three of those is utterly redundant...

That further gives me confidence that "collectors" sets are completely different from "players" sets and the idea of separating the game from the collectible is required to properly document things.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

The more I try to apply the publisher/title logic to other sets of games, the more counting World Class Track Meet separately seemed wrong to me. "Midway Arcade Classics 1" was clearly the same game as "Midway Arcade Classics".  Jet Moto 2 greatest hits is branded on the box as just Jet Moto 2 but within the game as Jet Moto 2: Championship Edition, so do I count it separately? Do all the Majesco budget white label releases count separately for the SNES set, because I've never seen a single person count them all a list separately, but Caltron/Myriad 6-in-1 almost always are. Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition has a different name, packaging, and code from DMC3, but it's a version of the same game.

Similarly once you expand past the US-centered lists, everything is named and coded differently. Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are versions of the same game, and I'd only separate them when I was looking at a US list or a PAL list, but if I'm looking at the "one of everything" list I don't need them counted separately.

And I get counting publishers/titles differently in your lists if you want. The more I document variants, the more having things split up into multiple buckets based on the title or publisher didn't mesh with how I organize my lists. Having everything in one bucket, then filtering down based on publisher, region, etc. is what I do. You can also blame the evil comic and sports card people, because over the past 2 years I looked more into things like first edition books which reshaped how I though about games.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

I do count platforms entirely separately though. So ゼルダの伝説 on Famicom is the same game as The Legend of Zelda on NES by my standards but I count them separately. We can't all be perfect.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

36 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

I do count platforms entirely separately though. So ゼルダの伝説 on Famicom is the same game as The Legend of Zelda on NES by my standards but I count them separately. We can't all be perfect.

We operate under different paradigms, I guess.  I don't consider famicom to be a different platform than NES.  I'm going for full sets of both regions, so I've got like a 55% overlap in games, which I'm totally fine with, but I treat them as a single platform in exactly the same way as gamefaqs.com does.