General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Link | 2,712]

2 hours ago, Gloves said:

North American politics be like

 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

1 minute ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I agree with most of what you said especially arguing over semantics, I'm sick of that for sure.

But I disagree with the above quote. Trying to educate people on racism is not a stupid piddly thing and it's not an argument I'm being lead to have. I've been anti-racist since I educated myself on race relations as a teenager two decades ago. It's got zero to do with my political leanings or what you think someone else wants me to believe. It's my right and my duty to call out racism, racist beliefs, and racist ideas. I'll continue to do so in life and I'll continue to do so on this board as long as I am allowed to do it.

I'll second that. Some things are just common sense that go beyond "left" and "right".

[Gloves | 11,779]

Just now, CodysGameRoom said:

I agree with most of what you said especially arguing over semantics, I'm sick of that for sure.

But I disagree with the above quote. Trying to educate people on racism is not a stupid piddly thing and it's not an argument I'm being lead to have. I've been anti-racist since I educated myself on race relations as a teenager two decades ago. It's got zero to do with my political leanings or what you think someone else wants me to believe. It's my right and my duty to call out racism, racist beliefs, and racist ideas. I'll continue to do so in life and I'll continue to do so on this board as long as I am allowed to do it.

You have to accept though that at least as far as I can tell fcgamer doesn't consider himself racist; he has a different worldview than you. Different friends, different experiences. We work with what we've got. A person being CALLED racist who doesn't believe themselves to be is OF COURSE going to get defensive about it, and even lash out - it's absolutely NOT something anyone wants to be called.

I believe you BOTH have the best in mind, you both are surely anti-racism. It's a complete non-argument and you are of course going to say you're not being "lead" to say or do anything. Point being you both disagree on the nitty gritty when there are people literally being put in camps, murdered, literally HARVESTED out there in the world. Who gives a shit about if some guy on a forum thinks "colored" is offensive compared to "black" (not an argument you were in, rather w/ wunderful)? That's what I mean by piddly - fcgamer may have come from the States but he ain't there now, he's living a different experience now.

Of COURSE you're anit-racist. I challenge anyone on here who's happily racist to go ahead and post about it. Now that'll be an interesting conversation.

[Estil | 1,265]

16 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I agree with most of what you said especially arguing over semantics, I'm sick of that for sure.

But I disagree with the above quote. Trying to educate people on racism is not a stupid piddly thing and it's not an argument I'm being lead to have. I've been anti-racist since I educated myself on race relations as a teenager two decades ago. It's got zero to do with my political leanings or what you think someone else wants me to believe. It's my right and my duty to call out racism, racist beliefs, and racist ideas. I'll continue to do so in life and I'll continue to do so on this board as long as I am allowed to do it.

As crazy as you may think this sounds, I'm very much anti-racist as well.  Sure no one is without some kind of prejudice or whatever but I always try my best to not judge people based on any kind of negative stereotypes and the like.  I mean I want to be treated as an individual with an individual viewpoint and not as a "typical [whatever] from [so-and-so group].  You know, that whole Golden Rule thing?  In fact, I am extremely uncomfortable with any kind of "hive mind" or other situation where I feel in anyway I'm pressured to "just" go along with some group, no questions asked.  I want my opinion on anything to be what I freely decided makes the most sense...no strings attached.

Again I'm probably not explaining that exactly right either...  

Edited July 2, 2020 by Estil

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

9 minutes ago, Gloves said:

A person being CALLED racist

I'm pretty sure I have not straight up labeled anyone in this thread a racist. Many people with racist view points or who engage in racism do it unknowingly or without the proper education as to why what they are doing or what they believe is actually perpetuating racism. That's what I believe is happening with some members of this community. I'm not saying they are outright racists and I doubt anyone here would label themselves as such. 

But when you try to educate, you get nothing but denial and pushback. Literally not an inch of headway. That denial and pushback is an indication of an unwillingness to learn. That unwillingness perpetuates racism. This is what is being fought every day in our country and what is being fought in this thread. 

That's just my opinion. 

 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 minutes ago, Estil said:

As crazy as you may think this sounds, I'm very much anti-racist as well.  Sure no one is without some kind of prejudice or whatever but I always try my best to not judge people based on any kind of negative stereotypes and the like.  I mean I want to be treated as an individual with an individual viewpoint and not as a "typical [whatever] from [so-and-so group].  You know, that whole Golden Rule thing?  In fact, I am extremely uncomfortable with any kind of "hive mind" or other situation where I feel in anyway I'm pressured to "just" go along with some group, no questions asked.  I want my opinion on anything to be what I freely decided makes the most sense...no strings attached.

Again I'm probably not explaining that exactly right either...  

I'm waiting for UK to change the name of Rupp arena to something less racist. When it came to Tom Payne, he would tell the referees to leave his big n***** alone.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

8 minutes ago, Estil said:

Sure no one is without some kind of prejudice or whatever but I always try my best to not judge people based on any kind of negative stereotypes and the like.

I'm sure that you believe this but the above statement contradicts other statements you've made in this thread.

8 minutes ago, Estil said:

You know, that whole Golden Rule thing?

Do unto others as you'd have done to you. That's exactly what BLM is fighting for and yet you are against them.

9 minutes ago, Estil said:

In fact, I am extremely uncomfortable with any kind of "hive mind" or other situation where I feel in anyway I'm pressured to "just" go along with some group, no questions asked.  I want my opinion on anything to be what I freely decided makes the most sense...no strings attached.

No one here is basing their opinions on a hive mind situation. Everyone is pulling from their own life experiences. No one wants you to just agree with them blankly. We are debating you because we want you to review the information and insight we provide and consider that instead of just the experiences you've had. No one here wants to force an opinion on you. We just want you to see both sides of the coin. If you still decline to agree with BLM after pages and pages of debate, that's disappointing, but it is what it is. 

[Gloves | 11,779]

7 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I'm pretty sure I have not straight up labeled anyone in this thread a racist. Many people with racist view points or who engage in racism do it unknowingly or without the proper education as to why what they are doing or what they believe is actually perpetuating racism. That's what I believe is happening with some members of this community. I'm not saying they are outright racists and I doubt anyone here would label themselves as such. 

But when you try to educate, you get nothing but denial and pushback. Literally not an inch of headway. That denial and pushback is an indication of an unwillingness to learn. That unwillingness perpetuates racism. This is what is being fought every day in our country and what is being fought in this thread. 

That's just my opinion. 

 

But there's the thing - you consider yourself as educating, but others clearly disagree. You have to yourself as well be willing to consider that your own views are not infallible. It's a very complicated subject and you're not 100% right about everything, especially on a world stage. Maybe arguing the specifics of racism with the dude living in Taiwan just isn't worth it. If you feel he's never gonna budge, maybe consider moving on and changing the conversation to something you CAN agree on and work from there. You need to find the compromise or else coming at it from such different viewpoints will simply never work.

[Estil | 1,265]

14 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I'm waiting for UK to change the name of Rupp arena to something less racist. When it came to Tom Payne, he would tell the referees to leave his big n***** alone.

Rupp most definitely was NOT a racist.  Incidentally Wes Unseld, the first black player he gave a formal scholarship offer to in 1964, just recently passed away.  A few of the highlights from the link...when he was a HS coach he had a black player who was a regular starter, as far back as the 1950s he regularly scheduled non-conference games against integrated teams, THREE times UK got an NCAA Tournament appearance because the team who won the conference championship (there were no wild cards/at-large bids until mid-70s) was not allowed by their state gov't to play because they didn't want them to play against any integrated teams.  Also, there is the full post-game interview (both audio and transcript) from the 1966 title game (contrary to popular myth, TexWes also only lost one game all season and entered the tournament ranked second so them beating us was NOT in any way an "upset")...where not ONCE will you find any mention of "black" or "negro" or "African" anywhere.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/rupp.html

The bottom line is, Rupp was most definitely not a racist and very much would've integrated the team...but "the system" (the SEC did not want to make UK even more of an "Evil Empire") and the realities of the time (you do NOT want to know what kind of danger a 18-19 year old black player at the time would face in opposing SEC arenas) just would not let him.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Estil

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

1 minute ago, Estil said:

Rupp most definitely was NOT a racist.  Incidentally Wes Unseld, the first black player he gave a formal scholarship offer to in 1964, just recently passed away.  A few of the highlights from the link...when he was a HS coach he had a black player who was a regular starter, as far back as the 1950s he regularly scheduled non-conference games against integrated teams, THREE times UK got an NCAA Tournament appearance because the team who won the conference championship (there were no wild cards/at-large bids until mid-70s).  Also, there is the full post-game interview (both audio and transcript) from the 1966 title game (contrary to popular myth, TexWes also only lost one game all season and entered the tournament ranked second so them beating us was NOT in any way an "upset")...where not ONCE will you find any mention of "black" or "negro" or "African" anywhere.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/rupp.html

The bottom line is, Rupp was most definitely not a racist and very much would've integrated the team...but "the system" (the SEC did not want to make UK even more of an "Evil Empire") and the realities of the time (you do NOT want to know what kind of danger a 18-19 year old black player at the time would face in opposing SEC arenas) just would not let him.

He integrated the team after losing the championship to an all black team. Maybe he wasn't a racist, but was just loose with the n-word, since it wasn't quite the issue in the late '60s as it is today. The SEC road crowds weren't exactly welcoming when UK did get a black player, but no surprise there like you said.

[Estil | 1,265]

8 minutes ago, Gloves said:

But there's the thing - you consider yourself as educating, but others clearly disagree. You have to yourself as well be willing to consider that your own views are not infallible. It's a very complicated subject and you're not 100% right about everything, especially on a world stage. Maybe arguing the specifics of racism with the dude living in Taiwan just isn't worth it. If you feel he's never gonna budge, maybe consider moving on and changing the conversation to something you CAN agree on and work from there. You need to find the compromise or else coming at it from such different viewpoints will simply never work.

I never did like the terms "educate" or especially "listen" (as probably all our parents growing up accused us of not doing back in the day) as to what they mean in that kind of context.  That is "you don't listen" really means "just go along with whatever we tell you" and "educate" really means (again in that kind of context) "get to our point of view".  In fact I remember a classic chain email waaaaay back in the day showing the education and such credentials of key members of the Bush Administration compared to a bunch of know-it-all Hollywood liberal celebs who often act like they know better...none of whom listed has more than a HS education.  

[Estil | 1,265]

2 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

He integrated the team after losing the championship to an all black team. Maybe he wasn't a racist, but was just loose with the n-word, since it wasn't quite the issue in the late '60s as it is today. The SEC road crowds weren't exactly welcoming when UK did get a black player, but no surprise there like you said.

Nice try but he made his first formal scholarship offer to a black player two years before that 1966 game; he made I believe around 8-10 or so before one did sign up (1971's Tom Payne)...and remember these are just formal offers, this is not even counting informal ones or players Rupp was considering but then they decided to go somewhere else before Rupp could make any offer.  And as you might have seen/heard in that post-game speech, he in no way saw them as a "black team"...he saw them as a "team".  Did you ever hear the man actually speak?  

Edited July 2, 2020 by Estil

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

2 minutes ago, Estil said:

That is "you don't listen" really means "just go along with whatever we tell you" and "educate" really means (again in that kind of context) "get to our point of view".

Honestly not my intention and I doubt anyone else's here. Sorry if you feel that way. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

3 minutes ago, Estil said:

Nice try but he made his first formal scholarship offer to a black player two years before that 1966 game; he made I believe around 8-10 or so before one did sign up (1971's Tom Payne)...and remember these are just formal offers, this is not even counting informal ones or players Rupp was considering but then they decided to go somewhere else before Rupp could make any offer.  And as you might have seen/heard in that post-game speech, he in no way saw them as a "black team"...he saw them as a "team".  Did you ever hear the man actually speak?  

I know people that are fans that went there in the '60s and will admit he used that word during games. Don't worry about it though. I had a Louisville fan tell me during a football game in the old Big East days that the only thing they have in common with Cincinnati is that neither one likes UK.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

16 hours ago, Gloves said:

You have to accept though that at least as far as I can tell fcgamer doesn't consider himself racist; he has a different worldview than you. Different friends, different experiences. We work with what we've got. A person being CALLED racist who doesn't believe themselves to be is OF COURSE going to get defensive about it, and even lash out - it's absolutely NOT something anyone wants to be called.

I believe you BOTH have the best in mind, you both are surely anti-racism. It's a complete non-argument and you are of course going to say you're not being "lead" to say or do anything. Point being you both disagree on the nitty gritty when there are people literally being put in camps, murdered, literally HARVESTED out there in the world. Who gives a shit about if some guy on a forum thinks "colored" is offensive compared to "black" (not an argument you were in, rather w/ wunderful)? That's what I mean by piddly - fcgamer may have come from the States but he ain't there now, he's living a different experience now.

Of COURSE you're anit-racist. I challenge anyone on here who's happily racist to go ahead and post about it. Now that'll be an interesting conversation.

Best post of the thread, period.

If humanity took this approach to improve as humans, we'd accomplish so much more to stamp out racism and obtain equality and respect for all humans, which is what I think the majority wants.

We all have some prejudices or different viewpoints due to different life experiences, but that doesn't mean that some of us are the problem and others aren't, etc.

@CodysGameRoom : I just thought I'd throw this out there for what it's worth. My older brother has autism, watching his struggles over the course of life has definitely influenced some of my views.

On another note, I sometimes go out busking on the weekend, then give any money earned to the homeless I see in the area.

We all need to work together with the abilities we have been given to help the less fortunate in need, whether poor, black, mentally ill, etc. 

[Estil | 1,265]

So now there are some teams both in the US and abroad who are wanting to do BLM logos on their uniforms or even entire jerseys themed in BLM.  But not every player is wanting to go all in on the BLM craze...

https://twitter.com/juanus88/status/1277568821335908352

https://outkick.com/chicago-red-stars-soccer-player-defends-decision-to-stand-for-anthem/

And now we have one of the latest teams to jump on the BLM bandwagon...

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/memphis-football-black-lives-matter-sticker

Now I like the way the NBA is doing it...at least they're offering some flexiblity:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29377073/nba-planning-let-players-use-social-justice-messages-jerseys

 

My main concern though is what if a player does not wish to wear any kind of BLM on (or as!) their uniform?  I mean we (or at least I) don't like the idea of forcing players to stand for the anthem/Pledge of Allegiance or whatever...so I hope there won't be any players threatened to be kicked off the team or ostracized if they wish to "just" play along with BLM.  For example, a player who has relatives/friends who serve in law enforcement (and maybe even go into it someday, like Shaq did off and on) might not want to wear a BLM logo/jersey because they don't support a movement that waves signs like *f* the police or defund the police or whatnot.   For example (start at 7:00)...

Of course Carl had no hesitation in calling out a bad cop...but as you can see from above, he would not stand for putting down the police in general.

 

I have no issue with making BLM logo on their jersey optional...but I'm very concerned that some leagues/teams are gonna try to force it on all the players.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Estil

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

We all have some prejudices or different viewpoints due to different life experiences, but that doesn't mean that some of us are the problem and others aren't, etc.

I was gonna leave this alone for now but I'm sorry, I just can't. What does this even mean? I honestly am not sure what you mean by this. Because it seems like you are just giving a pass to people. 

"that doesn't mean that some of us are the problem and others aren't." Huh? Some people literally ARE the problem! 

Prejudice is a problem, even if it comes from different life experiences. 

So are you saying like, hey, it's ok if they are prejudiced because they have had a different lifestyle? I don't get it man.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

2 minutes ago, Estil said:

I'm very concerned that some leagues/teams are gonna try to force it on all the players.

I would focus my concern on, as @Gloves said, "people literally being put in camps, murdered, literally HARVESTED", instead of on what a sports team is going to wear.

[Link | 2,712]

[Tabonga | 2,318]

On 7/1/2020 at 10:37 AM, Tabonga said:

Another related story came to light late Monday - three Aurora police officers "re-enacted" the death via some mocking pictures (taken at the scene of the event). They distributed those pictures to some other officers and at least one of them had the integrity to report it.  The three officers are on administrative leave and the matter is under investigation (which by all accounts should be done fairly quickly (as such things go.))

One of the three officers involved has resigned,

[OptOut | 8,884]

I thought we had pretty much broken through to a common sort of footing, finally, with a kind of live and let live attitude, agree to disagree kind of thing... But man Cody you just keep on pushing don't you?

As a fairly neutral observer I think FCgamer, Estil and Tabonga have all made steps towards understanding and appreciating your position, even if not accepting or fully agreeing with it. But in return, you continue to push them and belittle their perspectives and concerns.

They have actually been very bold and brave in airing their opinions in a forum that is clearly mostly comprised of people who do not share their political leanings or worldview, and although I can't say I necessarily agree with a lot of what they have said, I definitely appreciate hearing opposing points of view.

You know, I have a background in Sociology, I originate from a country with a robust social welfare system and nationalised medicine, I am way on the left side of most social and personal issues politically. I don't often talk about this, but I am also LGBTQ spectrum.

But I no longer have the confidence to fully espouse my own political beliefs, for fear of criticism. And the saddest thing is, it is NOT due to the criticism of the people who might be called my political opposition... those to the right. It's fear of those I would find myself aligned with, as someone relatively socially progressive. Allies who I have seen turn on each other and themselves, and who would not blink before castigating ME if I were to talk out of line or perhaps not follow a certain train of thought quite as far as they think I should.

I have opted out of politics and sharing my voice in this field, and I don't mean to specifically call you out Cody for anything in particular you have said or done to spook me in THIS thread... The damage was done a long time ago I'm afraid. But the WAY you have been talking, especially something about just the last couple of posts after we ALMOST found just a hint of commonality...

Well... I GUESS you got this long ass rambling post out of me, so well done bravo I guess.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

13 minutes ago, OptOut said:

live and let live attitude, agree to disagree kind of thing

I'll never have that attitude towards racism / the discussion of racism. Also... you are in the politics thread. DO you think because Gloves made a "shiny happy people holding hands" post that we are no longer going to have debate? I mean what are the expectations here?

13 minutes ago, OptOut said:

But man Cody you just keep on pushing don't you?

If I'm out of line a mod will tell me. I have questions and I'd like the answers. I don't think that is out of line.

18 minutes ago, OptOut said:

It's fear of those I would find myself aligned with, as someone relatively socially progressive. Allies who I have seen turn on each other and themselves, and who would not blink before castigating ME if I were to talk out of line or perhaps not follow a certain train of thought quite as far as they think I should.

I'm sorry that is your experience, but that is not my fault. 

20 minutes ago, OptOut said:

I don't mean to specifically call you out Cody for anything in particular you have said or done to spook me in THIS thread... The damage was done a long time ago I'm afraid.

I don't know what you are referring to but if I said something in another thread that truly offended you then I apologize.

15 minutes ago, OptOut said:

But the WAY you have been talking, especially something about just the last couple of posts after we ALMOST found just a hint of commonality...

What have I said is out of line? I asked FCGamer to clarify something he said, and I offered my opinion on a pondering Estil made about team uniforms. What is out of line here? What did I do to become the boogeyman? Should I stop offering my opinion? Should I be made to feel like my opinions are not valid and that I shouldn't share them on this forum? If so, just tell me. By all means. 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

23 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I agree. Too many people want to vote with the party instead of on the issue itself. 

As long as people can be convinced to vote all-or-nothing on one or two (key to them) issues, you can't get people to actually vote on practical issues where meaningful change is possible, versus getting caught up in the ideological divide on a small handful of high-inertia topics that are incredibly unlikely to change no matter who is leading the government.

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

Just now, arch_8ngel said:

As long as people can be convinced to vote all-or-nothing on one or two (key to them) issues, you can't get people to actually vote on issues where meaningful change is possible.

 

Unfortunately, I agree 100%. People don't seem to understand that you can actually do that.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

34 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

Unfortunately, I agree 100%. People don't seem to understand that you can actually do that.

For instance, take the abortion issue off the table, and I suspect there are MANY so-called-republican-adherents that are at least willing to flip independent.

That issue alone as incredibly entrenched battle lines drawn that let either side run amok with all kind of other BS that are against their respective voters' best interests.