General Current Events/Political Discussion

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

It’s not the same though. The police were trying to identify him. That’s a legitimate purpose, especially under those circumstances. If he had taken off his mask, stated his name and where he lived, and shown an ID if he had one, he likely would have been able to go home after a few minutes. Like I said, I’ve had to deal with cops on power trips, and I remind myself during the interactions to remain calm and comply, even if I think they are wrong. No good to me can come from escalating the situation by resisting directions or raising my tone.

Edited July 1, 2020 by ICrappedMyPants

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

5 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

It’s not the same though. The police were trying to identify him. That’s a legitimate purpose, especially under those circumstances. If he had taken off his mask, stated his name and where he lived, and shown an ID if he had one. He likely would have been able to go home after a few minutes. 

But why were they trying to identify him? Because someone said he "looked sketchy". That is messed up. No crime was committed. The actions are way out of line. You can say that his actions escalated the situation but I feel like trained officers should be able to control the situation and avoid an escalation like that. The kid didn't pull out a gun. He just kept trying to walk home. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

19 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

It’s not the same though. The police were trying to identify him. That’s a legitimate purpose, especially under those circumstances. If he had taken off his mask, stated his name and where he lived, and shown an ID if he had one, he likely would have been able to go home after a few minutes. Like I said, I’ve had to deal with cops on power trips, and I remind myself during the interactions to remain calm and comply, even if I think they are wrong. No good to me can come from escalating the situation by resisting directions or raising my tone.

I feel this way anytime I go to the immigration office. I may find the people to be inadequate, rude, prejudiced, or whatever, but at the end of the day it's best to comply rather than escalate, make a point, and end up dead (or in my case, deported)

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

I lived in a neighborhood in Chicago that had a lot of break-ins. Video showed teens were coming in from other areas of the city and doing this even in broad daylight. If I saw someone at night walking around, when it is not winter with a ski mask, I would have been a bit alarmed.

We’re taught to follow directions from childhood. It’s not hard to do. The cops handled it poorly. They killed him. They are flat out wrong. However, you can’t expect them to just let the kid walk on by when refusing to answer their questions. That’s not realistic. Here’s another example. My 3 year old got my wife’s cell phone. He called 911 on accident through the emergency button. He hung up and they called back and he hung up three times. The cops came to my house and I was shocked. I could have told them forcibly that  nobody called 911 and that they need to leave my property. It would have been suspicious. I wouldn’t be surprised if they would Have escalated the situation. Instead, I told the cops I was unaware as I was working and got my wife and checked the phone. We showed them the kids and everyone was ok and thanked them for their time and everything ended quickly.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

14 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

But why were they trying to identify him? Because someone said he "looked sketchy". That is messed up. No crime was committed. The actions are way out of line. You can say that his actions escalated the situation but I feel like trained officers should be able to control the situation and avoid an escalation like that. The kid didn't pull out a gun. He just kept trying to walk home. 

I used to live and work in a rural area of Taiwan, for five years. Aside from a few Mormon missionaries, I was the only non-Asian guy there. For better or worse, the whole town essentially knew who I was.

After about four years in, I came out of the bank one day around lunchtime, and a police officer was on the corner; he said something to me and motioned me over, stopped me and asked for my ID, etc. 

I personally felt the whole thing was quite odd and unnecessary, I'd been living there for four years by this point, etc. But I pulled out my ID, acted respectfully, and then was soon on my way. I definitely saw no reason to act any other way, whether I felt it was just or not, it's just common sense.

[Link | 2,712]

He was autistic. 

Can you imagine that maybe he was scared? Right away, the cop told him “stop tensing up” about 5 times. 

They came in aggressively from the start. Then they held him down, commanding him to relax. At this point he was gasping and obviously couldn’t speak properly, and offered his ID and told them his name. There you go. There is your precious compliance. They physically forced him to comply... and then continued to choke him, make demands, and not listen to him beg for his life.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

32 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

My 3 year old got my wife’s cell phone. He called 911 on accident through the emergency button. He hung up and they called back and he hung up three times. The cops came to my house and I was shocked. I could have told them forcibly that  nobody called 911 and that they need to leave my property. It would have been suspicious. I wouldn’t be surprised if they would Have escalated the situation. Instead, I told the cops I was unaware as I was working and got my wife and checked the phone. We showed them the kids and everyone was ok and thanked them for their time and everything ended quickly.

Glad to hear it worked out well for you.

By chance, are you white?

[Tabonga | 2,317]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

But why were they trying to identify him? Because someone said he "looked sketchy". That is messed up. No crime was committed. The actions are way out of line. You can say that his actions escalated the situation but I feel like trained officers should be able to control the situation and avoid an escalation like that. The kid didn't pull out a gun. He just kept trying to walk home. 

As far as trying to identify him there are two factors that need to be taken into consideration.

Supposedly it was in a high crime area (could be - Aurora has a lot of them but I am not familiar with Aurora at all).

This occurred in August - which even at night is not very cool in Colorado - so a ski mask (and supposedly a coat of some sort ) would definitely be odd/suspicious.

------------------------------------------

That being said what happened afterwards was not justified,  The first time I head the audio it was pretty clear that the guy had some underlying problems - so the police should have treated him accordingly.   It is also not clear why he was  given such a large dose of ketamine* (which is likely what killed him) when even a small wouldn't have been needed at all if things hadn't gone south due to the police there. 

*From what I understand he was given a dose suitable for a 220 pound person while he weighed 140 pounds . Supposedly it was injected rapidly - protocol with ketamine is that it should be administered slowly since it can cause respiratory distress if administered too rapidly.

--------------------------------------------

Another related story came to light late Monday - three Aurora police officers "re-enacted" the death via some mocking pictures (taken at the scene of the event). They distributed those pictures to some other officers and at least one of them had the integrity to report it.  The three officers are on administrative leave and the matter is under investigation (which by all accounts should be done fairly quickly (as such things go.))

Edited July 1, 2020 by Tabonga

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

3 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

As far as trying to identify him there are two factors that need to be taken into consideration.

Supposedly it was in a high crime area (could be - Aurora has a lot of them but I am not familiar with Aurora at all).

This occurred in August - which even at night is not very cool in Colorado - so a ski mask (and supposedly a coat of some sort ) would definitely be odd/suspicious.

These are fair points. 

4 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

That being said what happened afterwards was not justified,  The first time I head the audio it was pretty clear that the guy had some underlying problems - so the police should have treated him accordingly.   It is also not clear why he was  given such a large dose of ketamine* (which is likely what killed him) when even a small wouldn't have been needed at all if things hadn't gone south due to the police there. 

*From what I understand he was given a dose suitable for a 220 pound person while he weighed 140 pounds . Supposedly it was injected rapidly - protocol with ketamine is that it should be administered slowly since it can cause respiratory distress if administered too rapidly.

I knew we could agree on some things.

4 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Another related story came to light late Monday - three Aurora police officers "re-enacted" the death via some mocking pictures (taken at the scene of the event). They distributed those pictures to some other officers and at least one of them had the integrity to report it.  The three officers are on administrative leave and the matter is under investigation (which by all accounts should be done fairly quickly (as such things go.))

Appalling. Glad that the officers who reported it stepped up.

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

23 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I used to live and work in a rural area of Taiwan, for five years. Aside from a few Mormon missionaries, I was the only non-Asian guy there. For better or worse, the whole town essentially knew who I was.

After about four years in, I came out of the bank one day around lunchtime, and a police officer was on the corner; he said something to me and motioned me over, stopped me and asked for my ID, etc. 

I personally felt the whole thing was quite odd and unnecessary, I'd been living there for four years by this point, etc. But I pulled out my ID, acted respectfully, and then was soon on my way. I definitely saw no reason to act any other way, whether I felt it was just or not, it's just common sense.

People take for granted what freedom you have in this country. My parents told me how they were held at gunpoint by Mexican police with assault riffles on a trip to Acapulco Mexico and had to pay them hundreds of dollars to go free.

 

2 minutes ago, Link said:

He was autistic. 

Can you imagine that maybe he was scared? Right away, the cop told him “stop tensing up” about 5 times. 

They came in aggressively from the start. Then they held him down, commanding him to relax. At this point he was gasping and obviously couldn’t speak properly, and offered his ID and told them his name. There you go. There is your precious compliance. They physically forced him to comply... and then continued to choke him, make demands, and not listen to him beg for his life.

He probably was scared. I would have been too. He eventually was willing to comply, but it was too late. He should have complied at first, not after being physically restrained. Don’t distort the situation.

Ok, he has autism. He’s also a minor. I don’t know how smart it is for a parent to let an autistic teen out at night on his own. It seems like’s he’s pretty high functioning on the autistic scale, so they probably trusted him. They also probably didn’t  expect him to ever be in the situation he was in. I’m not that kind of parent and won’t be when my kids get older. However, that’s my choice on how to parent. I agree, the cops should have realized he wasn’t acting normally. They should be trained to understand the difference in responses between someone with a disorder, on drugs, or being defiant. The key is to train enough and make sure that the training is taken seriously.

I 100% say the cops were wrong and they screwed up. I think there are a substantial amount of people like myself who are on board with legitimate police reform who get turned off by some of the people that fail to admit that people also need to do a better job not escalating situations. Our culture is so full of self righteousness and disregard for compliance that we are confrontational. There is no respect for humility. This leads to people digging in their heels and becoming extreme on one side or another. I find this to be completely toxic. You’re never going to get a respectful society with this behavior.

9 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Glad to hear it worked out well for you.

By chance, are you white?

The dude had a ski mask on. Black or white, that would likely cause concern if it’s not cold or snowing.

4 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

As far as trying to identify him there are two factors that need to be taken into consideration.

Supposedly it was in a high crime area (could be - Aurora has a lot of them but I am not familiar with Aurora at all).

This occurred in August - which even at night is not very cool in Colorado - so a ski mask (and supposedly a coat of some sort ) would definitely be odd/suspicious.

------------------------------------------

That being said what happened afterwards was not justified,  The first time I head the audio it was pretty clear that the guy had some underlying problems - so the police should have treated him accordingly.   It is also not clear why he was  given such a large dose of ketamine* (which is likely what killed him) when even a small wouldn't have been needed at all if things hadn't gone south due to the police there. 

*From what I understand he was given a dose suitable for a 220 pound person while he weighed 140 pounds . Supposedly it was injected rapidly - protocol with ketamine is that it should be administered slowly since it can cause respiratory distress if administered too rapidly.

--------------------------------------------

Another related story came to light late Monday - three Aurora police officers "re-enacted" the death via some mocking pictures (taken at the scene of the event). They distributed those pictures to some other officers and at least one of them had the integrity to report it.  The three officers are on administrative leave and the matter is under investigation (which by all accounts should be done fairly quickly.)

I agree, they handled this poorly.  There needs to be legitimate training and the environment of the police force really needs to change. It needs to go back to an idea of serving the public and not just enforcing laws and assuming the worst. They need to be trained in de-escalation techniques. 
 

Hopefully, the officers who re-enacted this are fired. Personally, I think they should be and stripped of any pension benefits. Tax payers shouldn’t fund this scum.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

Just now, CodysGameRoom said:

I knew we could agree on some things.

I suspect we disagree more on the frequency of things.

Not to get into it (just citing an example) but  while we can both agree that serious police misconduct occurs  - how endemic/frequent is where we disagree,  I would contend it is less frequent than you would.  

[Tabonga | 2,317]

7 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Appalling. Glad that the officers who reported it stepped up.

Unfortunately if their name(s) get out (which is pretty inevitable) it will very likely have a negative impact on their careers.

One of my brothers worked briefly at the Denver Police HQ (as a indepentent consultant for their computer system) and the only officer he really liked was a sergeant who was shunned by many of the other police - he had helped break a burglary ring composed of Denver police (50 of them (along with a few civilians) were indicted). 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

12 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

People take for granted what freedom you have in this country. My parents told me how they were held at gunpoint by Mexican police with assault riffles on a trip to Acapulco Mexico and had to pay them hundreds of dollars to go free.

 

He probably was scared. I would have been too. He eventually was willing to comply, but it was too late. He should have complied at first, not after being physically restrained. Don’t distort the situation.

Ok, he has autism. He’s also a minor. I don’t know how smart it is for a parent to let an autistic teen out at night on his own. It seems like’s he’s pretty high functioning on the autistic scale, so they probably trusted him. They also probably didn’t  expect him to ever be in the situation he was in. I’m not that kind of parent and won’t be when my kids get older. However, that’s my choice on how to parent. I agree, the cops should have realized he wasn’t acting normally. They should be trained to understand the difference in responses between someone with a disorder, on drugs, or being defiant. The key is to train enough and make sure that the training is taken seriously.

I 100% say the cops were wrong and they screwed up. I think there are a substantial amount of people like myself who are on board with legitimate police reform who get turned off by some of the people that fail to admit that people also need to do a better job not escalating situations. Our culture is so full of self righteousness and disregard for compliance that we are confrontational. There is no respect for humility. This leads to people digging in their heels and becoming extreme on one side or another. I find this to be completely toxic. You’re never going to get a respectful society with this behavior.

The dude had a ski mask on. Black or white, that would likely cause concern if it’s not cold or snowing.

I agree, they handled this poorly.  There needs to be legitimate training and the environment of the police force really needs to change. It needs to go back to an idea of serving the public and not just enforcing laws and assuming the worst. They need to be trained in de-escalation techniques. 
 

Hopefully, the officers who re-enacted this are fired. Personally, I think they should be and stripped of any pension benefits. Tax payers shouldn’t fund this scum.

I totally agree with you on all of the points you bring up here. 

[Link | 2,712]

I’m glad we all (so far; the day is young) can hold common ground on something. 

I strongly disagree that “it was too late” for the police to stop choking him. It went on for seversl more minutes, and then there is the Special K. 

This is the latest in a long line of egregious actions.

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

4 minutes ago, Link said:

I’m glad we all (so far; the day is young) can hold common ground on something. 

I strongly disagree that “it was too late” for the police to stop choking him. It went on for seversl more minutes, and then there is the Special K. 

This is the latest in a long line of egregious actions.

Let me be clear. I think it was too late to comply. I do not think it was too late for them to stop choking him. I don’t think it was necessary to choke him in the first place. If they felt the need to cuff him, I could understand. I don’t understand choking or holding someone to the ground once cuffed. If they run away, a cop should be in shape enough to catch them.

[Link | 2,712]

13 minutes ago, ICrappedMyPants said:

Let me be clear. I think it was too late to comply.

Why is that? After the first instance, things don’t have to go all the way south, yet that keeps happening in these events. In this event, he course corrected, and they could have as well.

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

@Link Didn’t the one cop say that he grabbed for his gun during the struggle? I think that was before he was down on the ground and complying. If they legitimately feared that he reached for the weapon, even if he did not, then I can understand that the police would be in a tense state of mind and not likely to reassess the situation. I don’t think what they did was necessary or justified, but it’s easy to sit back and judge their actions from the comfort of my home. In the video they made the reference to him grabbing for the gun and that he was strong and thought he was on drugs. Unless they are intentionally lying in the moment to protect themselves, I think these concerns affected their ability to reassess the situation. Then again, I don’t think anyone needs to be choked or held against the ground when cuffed. I’ve never been put in their situation though, so my opinion may be as poor as Biden saying that cops should aim to shoot a perpetrator in the leg. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by ICrappedMyPants

[Link | 2,712]

I doubt that he did. Of course they can imagine that, but it could have been simply his arm motion as he was taken down, or trying to grasp his torso to avoid falling, who knows? They could have approached politely but they initiated a confrontation forcefully. They are bullies. And he’s dead. 

Minor point of clarification, he was 23 years old, not a teenager.

[ICrappedMyPants | 302]

I agree, it’s likely that he wasn’t reaching for the gun. It seems like they thought he was. I didn’t find their initial approach towards him to be out of line. They weren’t screaming or anything.

Thanks for the clarification on age. That explains why he was on his own. Like I’ve already repeated several times. The actions of the cops were not justified. They handled this wrong and should face life altering consequences. I also see that the Elijah didn’t comply and I cannot justify the lack of compliance based on my own understanding of how to speak to authorities. I was taught to be respectful of authorities, even when I think they are wrong. It’s a humbling thing to do and it’s hard. To me, I think being respectful de-escalates these situations. Now, there are lines that do require actions that would be legitimate rebuffs against authority. I think that the people in the video telling the police to get off of George Floyd were doing a good thing. When an authority starts to abuse power in a way that harms people, then it is justified to dissent. I support that resistance.

[Rhino | 105]

17 hours ago, Tulpa said:

I don't doubt that Fox has more viewers than any single other news source.

But that's still not most viewers out of all news viewers. Even throwing in CNN it doesn't add up to more than about 20% of all TV news viewers. 80% are getting their news from a source other than Fox or CNN.

 

Most people get their TV news from local TV news. While less than Fox individually, in the aggregate, they are most viewers of news. 

 

I don't think there's any getting through to you. Where are you getting these numbers from? It looks like most people actually get their news from social media now so we're both wrong and that really explains why everything is a mess. Social media creates echo chambers and has an incredible amount of misinformation. It's very dangerous if your only news source is social media.

[Link | 2,712]

On 6/30/2020 at 8:34 AM, fcgamer said:

Should foods be off limits for people to produce , tweak, and sell, if it's not from their ethnic group?

I don’t believe the answer for food is categorical. It depends on how. Rick Bayless seems like somebody who does it right. 

Gordon Ramsay said iirc that he can cook any country’s cuisine better than the people from that country. I like him, and sure hes a good chef, but that’s a pretty dumb and insulting thing to say. 

[Rhino | 105]

Just now, Link said:

I don’t believe the answer for food is categorical. It depends on how. Rick Bayless seems like somebody who does it right. 

Gordon Ramsay said iirc that he can cook any country’s cuisine better than the people from that country. I like him, and sure hes a good chef, but that’s a pretty dumb and insulting thing to say. 

Why? You can be the best even if you weren't born there. That's like saying you can't be the best basketball player in the world if you aren't born in the U.S where basketball originated. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

3 minutes ago, Link said:

I don’t believe the answer for food is categorical. It depends on how. Rick Bayless seems like somebody who does it right. 

Gordon Ramsay said iirc that he can cook any country’s cuisine better than the people from that country. I like him, and sure hes a good chef, but that’s a pretty dumb and insulting thing to say. 

Why shouldn't food be categorical, yet accent should be? Especially when accent is a product of region, rather than race or ethnicity.

[Link | 2,712]

When you cook food, you are not necessarily pretending to be something you’re not.

When you act, you are. And when you act in a way that reinforces a stereotype, that merits examination: Is it hurtful to people it represents? Then it should change. 

[Link | 2,712]

38 minutes ago, Rhino said:

Why? You can be the best even if you weren't born there. That's like saying you can't be the best basketball player in the world if you aren't born in the U.S where basketball originated. 

This one isn’t really my fight, per se. But here is why since you want to know.

https://www.eater.com/2018/7/26/17619102/gordon-ramsay-uncharted-tv-show-national-geographic-uncharted

”discover the undiscovered” great, a Christopher Columbus of cuisine.

Chef Eddie Huang’s reaction