March Genesis Madness: Championship

[Gloves | 11,801]

All of you arguing that the point is to go slow and get good at going fast are completely ignoring the way the game was advertised.

To quote a video ad for the original game: "going fast is cool, going slow is not" (being sung in a hip rap song). 

The games were advertised as speed - you GOTTA go fast. The advertising and the reality are at odds. ANY game you can go fast with enough practice. I can speedrun Metal Gear Solid, a game about tactical espionage action. Practically anything can be played quickly. Sega ADVERTISED that you'd be going fast as a given, and failed to deliver on that promise. 

It doesn't even have cool fast SECTIONS for noobs to get a quick dopamine burst and to experience the speed to make you go "I want more!". Instead, every time they start you going fast via a loop or a tunnel you come out the other side and run straight into a rock or a crab placed directly in your path, creating frustration. It's okay game design paired with bad marketing which has put a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. 

I wouldn't even mind if it was "this hedgehog is hella cool, and jumps and spins like a cool dude!", and then you can git gud and go fast and that's fun and rewarding. Instead we got "GOTTA GO FAST!" followed by "Lol LOSER you tried to go fast without memorizing the level first!". 

[cj_robot | 545]

Guys, when you're going fast, press Down on the D-pad. Sonic will roll into a ball and enemies will not hit you and ruin your momentum. In fact, you'll just plow right through them.

Problem solved. Enjoy the game!

[DefaultGen | 5,415]

Sonic’s advanced level design is not for babies used to the speed and flow of running through a Mario level

 

[rdrunner | 422]

Skipped ahead through all the bickering.  This really shouldn't be the "Sonic 2 does/doesn't deserve to win" thread.  It's likely going to win and that's fine.  Majority vote wins out.

It's been a fun bracket.  Thanks for setting it up!

[Kguillemette | 1,546]

1 hour ago, rdrunner said:

Skipped ahead through all the bickering.  This really shouldn't be the "Sonic 2 does/doesn't deserve to win" thread.  It's likely going to win and that's fine.  Majority vote wins out.

It's been a fun bracket.  Thanks for setting it up!

Sonic is a polarizing game character. People love him and at the same time others love to hate him. Those that love to hate on him and his games are pretty well part of a very vocal minority. But it's all good at the end of the day!

 

Congrats to Sonic 2 for starting to run away with it. Like was said earlier, the real finals was between it and SoR 2 a couple rounds ago, which Sonic squeaked a win.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,558]

I resemble that remark.  Dismissing people as haters is an easy way to blow off a debate and try to marginalize their views 

I'm just stating my case for why a 7/10 game (in my mind) shouldn't be crowned as the best game on a powerhouse console.  There's a reason why the formula has 30+ years of mostly failed games. But c'est la vie.

[RH | 4,928]

1 hour ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I resemble that remark.  Dismissing people as haters is an easy way to blow off a debate and try to marginalize their views 

I'm just stating my case for why a 7/10 game (in my mind) shouldn't be crowned as the best game on a powerhouse console.  There's a reason why the formula has 30+ years of mostly failed games. But c'est la vie.

No, it has “30+ years of failed games” because Sonic never made a proper jump to 3D.  Sonic Mania is a fantastic game and a return to its roots.  Many say it’s even better than S&K3. 2D Sonic is great.  It’s not an acquired taste for everyone, but as an example, neither is beer.
Imagine if I came in here and said “beer is nasty and sucks.  The fact that you have to learn to like it is proof I’m right”, probably 95% of you would want to burn me at the stake.

I accept that’s my opinion about the stuff but I can also accept I’m in the minority.  I don’t have to tear down beer lovers because they enjoy something different that I do.  The same is true with Sonic.  You like it or you don’t.  There’s no need to berate the series just because it’s not your cup of tea.  In fact, it seems to be the SNES bois who have to keep pushing the Mario vs. Sonic narrative when, in fact, both can coexist.  Some can like one over the other, while others can appreciate what both series have to offer.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,558]

You may not like beer, but if this was a drinks bracket there absolutely would be a discussion on beer's merits (or lack of) when going up against wine or lemonade.  That's the point of the bracket.  Any time Sonic comes up in a debate, I'll debate it.  He can take it.

[Brickman | 4,000]

I think the debate has been pretty good and civil. Would be a bit boring if we all agreed.

[Gaia Gensouki | 1,076]

2 hours ago, RH said:

Imagine if I came in here and said “beer is nasty and sucks.  The fact that you have to learn to like it is proof I’m right”, probably 95% of you would want to burn me at the stake.

Guess I'm part of the 5 % who would agree. Beer is nasty.

2 hours ago, RH said:

I accept that’s my opinion about the stuff but I can also accept I’m in the minority.  I don’t have to tear down beer lovers because they enjoy something different that I do.  The same is true with Sonic.  You like it or you don’t.  There’s no need to berate the series just because it’s not your cup of tea.  In fact, it seems to be the SNES bois who have to keep pushing the Mario vs. Sonic narrative when, in fact, both can coexist.  Some can like one over the other, while others can appreciate what both series have to offer.

I will admit that I've been too harsh on the Sonic lovers/enjoyers and I'm sorry for coming off as too abrasive. However, these polls were about the very best games on the Genesis/Mega Drive, so I think it's not unreasonable to talk about the merits or potential flaws of the candidates and why a specific game deserves to be singled out among hundreds, if not out of over a thousand games as the very best that there is.

And I only brought Mario into the mix in order to contrast Sonic with a another platformer, that in my opinion did certain things better. On top of that, it seemed to me that Sonic earned its high reputation at least in part because of its role in the console wars and as the cooler and faster alternative to boring and family-friendly Mario.

[Gloves | 11,801]

4 minutes ago, Gaia Gensouki said:

Guess I'm part of the 5 % who would agree. Beer is nasty.

Count me in; I don't touch the stuff, it tastes disgusting. 

[Sumez | 2,969]

On 4/7/2024 at 7:15 AM, Dr. Morbis said:

Read for comprehension, bro!  I quoted exactly what he said; here, I'll type it again in bold for you:

"Anyone trying to race through the level without knowing where they're going is doing it wrong. It's like trying to speedrun ANY game without having mastered it first."

He literally said that racing through a level of Sonic 2 without knowing where you're going on your first time through is like trying to speedrun ANY game without having mastered it first.  He literally and actually said that.  Read it again - he explicitly states that you have to approach Sonic 2 as a speedrunner learning the game with the intention of mastering it.  Read it fifty more times if you have to.

Come on man.  Read the line you just quoted in bold yourself. 

He's saying that you shouldn't try to speedrun the game without knowing where you're going. And somehow you chose to interpret that as that being the only way to play it?
Just chill and enjoy the game, and when you know the game well, you can look cooler playing through it. Just like any good arcade-style video game.

On 4/7/2024 at 8:22 AM, Gloves said:

It doesn't even have cool fast SECTIONS for noobs to get a quick dopamine burst and to experience the speed to make you go "I want more!". Instead, every time they start you going fast via a loop or a tunnel you come out the other side and run straight into a rock or a crab placed directly in your path, creating frustration.

I'd agree with you if that's actually what happened. You're not gonna get killed by that crab if you're spinning. And if you're not spinning, why the hell not? That's clearly your own fault.

These situations in Sonic 2 or 3 are extremely rare, and don't represent the majority of the game. They aren't perfect about it sure, but they also aren't nearly as terrible with it as Sonic Mania. The majority of the game can be enjoyed speeding casually through, and if you're a big fan of the game and play it through a lot, you'll be even faster at it.

Just like other games when you get good at them, you die less, you know? It's not entirely novel.
You wouldn't criticize a racing game for having corners either.

Edited April 8 by Sumez

[Brickman | 4,000]

54 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Come on man.  Read the line you just quoted in bold yourself. 

He's saying that you shouldn't try to speedrun the game without knowing where you're going. And somehow you chose to interpret that as that being the only way to play it?
Just chill and enjoy the game, and when you know the game well, you can look cooler playing through it. Just like any good arcade-style video game.

I'd agree with you if that's actually what happened. You're not gonna get killed by that crab if you're spinning. And if you're not spinning, why the hell not? That's clearly your own fault.

These situations in Sonic 2 or 3 are extremely rare, and don't represent the majority of the game. They aren't perfect about it sure, but they also aren't nearly as terrible with it as Sonic Mania. The majority of the game can be enjoyed speeding casually through, and if you're a big fan of the game and play it through a lot, you'll be even faster at it.

Just like other games when you get good at them, you die less, you know? It's not entirely novel.
You wouldn't criticize a racing game for having corners either.

Pretty good summary imo.

I think the whole speed thing is being really overblown. Especially for 2 & 3. There is a spin dash and the enemy placements are mostly predictable or easy to see coming.

Most people here are serious gamers and really shouldn’t be struggling with running or spin dashing in Sonic 2 

[Gloves | 11,801]

5 hours ago, Sumez said:

Come on man.  Read the line you just quoted in bold yourself. 

He's saying that you shouldn't try to speedrun the game without knowing where you're going. And somehow you chose to interpret that as that being the only way to play it?
Just chill and enjoy the game, and when you know the game well, you can look cooler playing through it. Just like any good arcade-style video game.

I'd agree with you if that's actually what happened. You're not gonna get killed by that crab if you're spinning. And if you're not spinning, why the hell not? That's clearly your own fault.

These situations in Sonic 2 or 3 are extremely rare, and don't represent the majority of the game. They aren't perfect about it sure, but they also aren't nearly as terrible with it as Sonic Mania. The majority of the game can be enjoyed speeding casually through, and if you're a big fan of the game and play it through a lot, you'll be even faster at it.

Just like other games when you get good at them, you die less, you know? It's not entirely novel.
You wouldn't criticize a racing game for having corners either.

In a racing game you can see the corner coming, and/or there's usually some other visual aid to tell you a turn is about to take place in the form of signs or other visual cues. 

You explain away the crab with the spin while conveniently ignoring that the rock, spike, or bumper don't give a shit if I'm spinning. 

[Sumez | 2,969]

38 minutes ago, Gloves said:

In a racing game you can see the corner coming, and/or there's usually some other visual aid to tell you a turn is about to take place in the form of signs or other visual cues. 

But you're still gonna perform better when you've raced the track before and know the corner.

Across the entirety of Sonic 3 & Knuckles I can think of a total of two occurrences where a spike would show up and hurt me without giving me any chance to react to it. It's not something that defines the game at all.

[RH | 4,928]

59 minutes ago, Gloves said:

In a racing game you can see the corner coming, and/or there's usually some other visual aid to tell you a turn is about to take place in the form of signs or other visual cues. 

You explain away the crab with the spin while conveniently ignoring that the rock, spike, or bumper don't give a shit if I'm spinning. 

There's also a jump button.  This is the EXACT example of what we're talking about in gaining experience to go fast.  You learn "I'll go through this loop... then another... ok, juuuump NOW! Phew, I did it!"

It's exhilarating to learn and chain together the fast sections.  Yes, there are strategically placed stopping points or, worse, bumpers that send you backwards.  Frustrating at first, but when you get your timing down to JUMP over them, then it's exhilarating because it almost feels like your cheating/hacking the level design.  But it's not.  The level design is playing your emotions and making it feel like a thrilling accomplishment, each time you master quickly getting over those stopping points.  If this were easy and straight forward, there'd be no point to these Sonic games.  Ok, there would be, but this is how you build your speed.  Learn the levels by knowing when to jump.  The spin-dash is just step one.  Jumping is step two.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,558]

6 hours ago, Sumez said:

You wouldn't criticize a racing game for having corners either

I'd criticize a side scrolling racer with blind corners.

It's not a question of "being good" or "struggling." It's about putting forth satisfactory gameplay.

[a3quit4s | 4,112]

My favorite argument so far is Sonic 2 is gonna win because it’s popular and people haven’t played the other games in a fucking game collecting forum full of people who play a shit ton of different games across any system lmao

[Sumez | 2,969]

27 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I'd criticize a side scrolling racer with blind corners.

It's not a question of "being good" or "struggling." It's about putting forth satisfactory gameplay.

To repeat myself. I'd agree with this argument if the games were actually designed that way. But they aren't.

[Gloves | 11,801]

57 minutes ago, Sumez said:

But you're still gonna perform better when you've raced the track before and know the corner.

Across the entirety of Sonic 3 & Knuckles I can think of a total of two occurrences where a spike would show up and hurt me without giving me any chance to react to it. It's not something that defines the game at all.

So by the *third* game they got it right. Well ain't that peachy lol. Shame I didn't play the third game cuz the first and second weren't so dialed in. It's almost like they learned from their design mistakes. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,558]

11 minutes ago, Sumez said:

To repeat myself. I'd agree with this argument if the games were actually designed that way. But they aren't.

Disagree.  In fact, I'm not sure the levels in S2 were designed with much of anything in mind other than random hodgepodge.

Hey @fox you should do PS1 next so we can spend the finals doing a very similar argument with Symphony of the Night 

[Sumez | 2,969]

13 minutes ago, Gloves said:

So by the *third* game they got it right. Well ain't that peachy lol. Shame I didn't play the third game cuz the first and second weren't so dialed in.

God dammit how can you even begin to criticize Sonic gameplay without having played the single most essential game in the series 

[RH | 4,928]

7 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Disagree.  In fact, I'm not sure the levels in S2 were designed with much of anything in mind other than random hodgepodge.

Hey @fox you should do PS1 next so we can spend the finals doing a very similar argument with Symphony of the Night 

..vs Final Fantasy VII, no doubt.  Lol, we did 64 games for the Genesis.  The PS1, in my opinion, has the highest ratio of absolute bangers to trash titles.  You can't throw a rock at the PS1 collection without hitting either a classic or a real, true hidden gem.

We're going to need a bracket 128 titles, if not 256 if we want to do it justice.  In 30 seconds, I could rattle off at least 25 games that should be on the list, and I wouldn't even be giving it much thought. 

[RH | 4,928]

16 minutes ago, Gloves said:

So by the *third* game they got it right. Well ain't that peachy lol. Shame I didn't play the third game cuz the first and second weren't so dialed in. It's almost like they learned from their design mistakes. 

Haha, dude, don't even try to make it binary.  I mentioned this in the Sonic 1 rating, so I know I'm being honest. Sonic 1 is just meh.  Sonic needed the spin dash and that's when the game went from being just aight to awesome.  Then going from 2 to S3&K* is when the stars aligned.

Using the Reed Scale, today, I'd rate those three games 5, 8 & 9.5.  I don't think I can quite call S3&K a perfect 10.  I'm not arguing that.  But it is a killer game.

[*] And I'm well aware that most of you guys know the history of these two games--Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles, but the fact that one game was split in two makes it a tad hard to reference.  I consider both games, one game.  I could rate/discuss each one individually but since I always had both, or went to a friend/family members house who had both, I just can't separate the two, so reference the game how many in the fan community do when you link the two carts together-- "Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles."

[Gloves | 11,801]

43 minutes ago, Sumez said:

God dammit how can you even begin to criticize Sonic gameplay without having played the single most essential game in the series 

I don't play the third game in a series when I didn't like the first two. I'm not a sucker lol.