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VGS Homebrew on the Horizon


Scrobins
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The only thing that Joe G. has convinced me of is that something either uses NESMaker or it doesn't. That's enough of a distinction in my book. Any dev knows the difference between using a game creation tool like NESMaker and writing code from scratch. There are not many who are blind to the difference. If the proponents of NESMaker, those that cannot see a difference between hacks and homebrews, and a few scattered others want to either not see a distinction or actively work to erase it for their own ends, then that's their problem.

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Mugi has a valid point concerning Nesmaker for a couple of reasons, anyone attracted to Nesmaker due to what Dimension Shift is able to showcase would be disappointed since all of the default code base has been gutted, optimized and replaced from the ground up. So it would be a disservice for new people coming to Nesmaker fresh.

Mugi is basically utilizing the tool at this point to serve as a screen painter, which is something I understand most from-scratch Homebrewer's use without having to announce that their game is somehow tool assisted.  Most of us in the NM community are more than happy to announce our projects as Nesmaker-made, no one is trying to fool anyone and it would be fairly simple to prove a project was made with nesmaker or not in case anyone tried to get smart and claim credit for source code they didn't write. I think Mugi's case provides an exceptionally large gray area, where a project started with a tool but quickly outgrew it and moved on towards the light. 

I really don't care to get invested in this argument since I'm heavily rooted in the NM community yet see logical conclusions from either angle, my only desired outcome is more cool NES games, method-be-damned. 

All I can really add is please keep up the good work everybody 🙂

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Raftronaut said:

Mugi has a valid point concerning Nesmaker for a couple of reasons, anyone attracted to Nesmaker due to what Dimension Shift is able to showcase would be disappointed since all of the default code base has been gutted, optimized and replaced from the ground up. So it would be a disservice for new people coming to Nesmaker fresh.

...

 

 

 

 

The problem is that people want to turn the NESMaker distinction into a qualitative judgment, arguing from the subjective ends and not the objective means. Keep it to the facts and let people make their own calls. That is not an anti-NESMaker position either, although most assume it is.

I'm not going to argue the point much, it's Scrobin's thread and he can do with it what he wants (which everyone should respect), but a list like this is only as valuable as the information it provides. Purposefully excluding information that is helpful to some, is not helpful unless we know that up front or throughout.

 

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Just to clarify here, im not in any way trying to hide the fact that i do indeed use nesmaker, I'm one of the more active speakers of the benefits of the tool,

but the fact is that my project does not in any way represent anything the tool can make anymore, and labeling it as such is simply deceiving.

Dimension Shift is in no part "a NESMAKER PRODUCTION" as it was labeled. the creators of nesmaker are in no way involved in making of the game.

it is written based on my early nesmaker demo by myself and FIX94 during the past 9 months using our preferred text editing tools (personally, i use nesmaker as a script manager, as i like to organize my assemblies using it.)

the gameplay screens are made using nesmaker's screenpainter, and cutscene screens, menu screens and everything else graphics related is made using shiru's screen tool.

we are using PB53 chr compression by Damian Yerrick, shiru's screenTool, GGSound, and text editing tools to make the game.

 

i refuse to allow anyone's elitism tell me that our project is somehow different from any other homebrew game degrading the year of programming effort put into it just because it uses a tool that is more recent than shiru's screen tool on the toolbox.

 

just like any normal homebrew game so far is not "a shiru's screentool production" or not every homebrew that uses GGSound is not "made by gradual games"

our game is not "a nesmaker production." it's simply "a homebrew nes game."

 

edit: for further clarification, you may seek out the 2019 PRGE nesmaker panel recording where Joe himself showcases dimension shift, emphasiszing how

things shown on it cannot be done using nesmaker.

Edited by Mugi
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I have no problem jumping into this again.

SoleGoose - you've made your position known.  My contention is that you must hold yourself to the same standard.  Every external tool that you have used that eased your development process, you need to qualify.  You might have to acknowledge that your game is a Shiru's Screen Tool / FamiTracker / Nerdy Nights game, for instance (not sure what actual tools you used, but...I'd imagine those and others were employed).  Make sure that you designate your games as such to meet your own standard of transparency...don't think of it as a qualitative distinction, just be forthright about it and let everyone else judge for themselves, as you are suggesting.  If that's the sandbox you want to play in, then don't be hypocritical about it.

You still haven't qualified what denotes NESmaker use.  Project Blue, for instance, built an engine, but utilized NESmaker to try out animations, because it was a lot quicker to streamline the process using our object tool.  By your metric, do they have to qualify their game as NESmaker game, since it was used as a tool in their pipeline?  If so, you probably relied on tools like Shiru's screen tool to the exact same degree...so do you consider your games a Shiru's Screen Tool game?  

Unless you're willing to list in conjunction with your creations every tool that you used that simplified your process, I don't think your request can be viewed as anything but hypocritical.  it's really that simple.

Edited by TheNew8bitHeroes
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9 minutes ago, Deadeye said:

I think this discussion is worth having, but it is growing larger than the purpose of this thread.  Can we move over to another thread topic if needed?

Agreed. I have a few thoughts also, but would rather have them in a different thread instead of derailing this one.

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Did not mean to hijack - I was alerted to the context of the conversation and that my name was thrown around, so I thought I'd chime in.

For what it's worth - awesome to see people making a compendium of homebrews!  We are also working on something to help with that, too!  You guys are awesome, and thanks for keeping love for this system alive.

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Homebrew Team · Posted

I’ve put in a note in my edit corner to clarify my thoughts, but to restate it here, my label is not meant as a denigration but an opportunity to promote games and connect them to NESmaker while promoting that as well. Every game with that label as promoted itself with a #nesmaker, including Mugi.

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i dont really care in any direction or the other, I made my point of why the tag should be omitted in my earlier post, stating mislead, due to the game's feature set far exceeding nesmaker's

capabilities, however if one continues to insist that it's somehow different from any other homebrew game out there, then so be it.

Safe to say though, im fairly dissappointed that the community has such an elitist stance towards new people attempting to join the hobby.

 

 

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@Scrobins - perhaps slightly more related to the list and how it is being qualified in that way, it might be more complex than a diametric designation (submitted for your consideration, not as an argument).  Just a few for-instances - Mystic Origins / Searches.  That's our in house project.  That is the project that ended up spawning our in house development tools, which would then go on to become "NESmaker".  But to us, those are just...our development tools, no different than any other homebrew who creates things to do things (which they all do).  So...is that a game that would be designated "A NESmaker production", considering every single line of code in it was written "from scratch" and the tools are our own?  

To add to complexity - what if our team's artist develops his Stellarator game further, or finishes out the next iteration of Troll Burner.  That, again, is an in house project, using our in house tools.  Does it need to be qualified simply on the basis that we have made these tools available for others to use?

And then there's the question of how much use of a tool denotes that it is a NESmaker production?  If a user, say, uses solely our screen editor to mine screen data tables, but writes all his own collision routines and basic physics engine, is that a NESmaker production?  What if a user just uses our pixel editor to generate CHR files?  What if they start with a blank module and write all of their own code from scratch, using no existing module?

Personally, I don't care either way how these games get classified on lists or whatever.  But for anyone that wants to have some declaration of discrepancy, I think established, proper metrics are important.  For instance, I would absolutely NOT call Project Blue a NESmaker game, even though they did use it to aide in creating animations.  I don't know if it makes any sense to call our own in house games "NESmaker games", as for us, it's the "Mystic Searches Screen Tool and Game Engine" (files are even still called MST files)...and no, I don't think our process in creating our game differs from any other developer who has created a homebrew, since we literally programmed everything from scratch (save the sound engine, which Derek Andrews graciously allowed us access to), so I'm not sure it warrants any distinction.  The same goes for Gamer Quest...we're developing that in house for them.  We wrote every line of code for it.  I'm not sure how that differs from any other homebrew.

So it's something to consider when building classifications.  If "A NESmaker Production" warrants its own particular label, what level of use qualifies for requiring such classification?  And, again, if classification is warranted, what other tools, engines, or development crutches warrant their own similar classification?  

I'm glad to be part of the discussion.  These are things you may not have considered, so I figured I'd open them up as talking points.  If that metric will be an integral part of your list, I think it's worth defining. 🙂

Also, on that note - don't forget to add Mystic Searches (coming soon) and Mystic Origins (a new run available soon)!

 

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Homebrew Team · Posted

@TheNew8bitHeroes I’m primarily here to compile and promote. I believe there is a distinction somewhere and I think there is a line to be drawn, though I am not savvy enough to be the one to decide where it goes. You’ll notice I don’t include the label to Mystic Searches or Mystic Origins because since you built those tools it isn’t the same as where others use it. Same with applying it to your other projects like Gamer Quest, Troll Burner, and Stellarator, it’s not a distinction to use what you yourself built. 

I’m grateful for the debate unfolding on the new thread, and hope that some kind of consensus is reached. If we can find agreement, I would happily reevaluate where the label, if one is kept, is placed. As I’ve said, I didn’t make the label as an insult, you’ve built something big and a lot of cool stuff is coming from it; and a label is as much a promotional tool so newbies can see what is possible and make their way to you to try out NESmaker.

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1 hour ago, Orab Games said:

Hi Mugi!

Care to give Dimension Shift it's own thread so it's not lost in here? This looks really good! I'm interested in hearing more about the process.

thanks for the interest but im not sure there's much point in making a thread about it.

what would i put there ?

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@Scrobins - oh, I felt no disrespect.  Not from you, and not from @SoleGoose either.  And I appreciate the enthusiasm!  I only meant to point out I don't think it's as cut and dry as listing xyz games as NESmaker versus 123 games as non-NESmaker, because NESmaker is a tool like any other tool.  Users will use it for a variety of reasons, at a variety of depth.  For some, they'll learn ASM the same way Nerdy Nights once taught beginners.  For others, they'll use it as an asset organizer, the way that Mugi describes.  Others will like using the pixel editor better than alternatives for cranking on CHR files.  Others will not use a single line of code that has been written and write entire engine's from scratch.  And then there are the games that we, or members of our team, will actively be part of producing in some way.  For all these reasons and more, the categorization of these games as "something other" necessitating some sort of designation is as arbitrary as considering games that use Unreal or Unity "something other" necessitating some sort of designation.  There will be Unity games that are beginner games utilizing some pre-constructed template, and then there will be Hearthstones or Pixar's Coco VR game or the new Oddworld game or the Switch port of Doom.  But you don't see Blizzard or EA insisting that Pixar paste a big Unity logo on their Coco VR game. 

Anyhow - thanks for the chat and the work you're doing to spread the word about new NES games!  If there are any other questions on this matter, feel free to tag me!  🙂
  

Edited by TheNew8bitHeroes
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