Defend a Game Thread

[Sumez | 2,989]

The CD-i Zelda games are super enjoyable to play! That is, Wand of Gamelon and Faces of Evil, not that weird third one.

Are they shitty games with horrible collision detection, impossible-to-identify platforms, and a ton of other issues? Sure, but people tend to be almost aggressive about it, hating on the games as if they had wronged them in some way. People will bring out the FMV scenes on YouTube so they can laugh at them without having to play the game.

But the thing is, all the issues in the games are the janky kind of control quirks that you can learn and work around - the games aren't difficult, you just need to figure out what to do. Outside of that they play more like a simplistic adventure game where you go a place to find an item, then use that item somewhere else, and so on. It has some fun ideas, and something new happens constantly. All the awkwardness of the games makes the bad parts bad in a way that's still amusing, and the small videos are interspersed frequently enough that you will constantly have new things to giggle at. Oh, and the music is bangin'!
The games work especially well as a party game where you get a few guys together, drink some beers, and then work together at figuring out how to get past each section.

Is Spirit Tracks a good game? Absolutely not, and I never want to play it again. Is Link: Faces of Evil a good game? That's a stretch, but I absolutely will play it many more times.

[killerkobra | 268]

Another one that clearly needs attention and defending is Castlevania II: Simons Quest

I have loved this game since the first time I laid eyes on it. My cousin had it when we were kids (I have his CIB now muhahaha) and I couldn't believe Dracula was the end boss. I can easily say AVGN is the one to blame for the HATE this gem gets. This game was by far my favorite for many years and still is held in high regards with me. The story was fantastic, a curse getting placed on Simon just before killing Dracula the first time, then having to reassemble him and kill him again to rid Simon from the curse was a brilliant idea for a sequel. 

Music/Sound - 10/10 - Some of the most iconic video game music came from this game

Graphics - 10/10 - Beautiful Gothic visuals 

Control - 9/10 - some stiff jumping but that is what Castlevania was all about back then

Fun Factor - 10/10 - Multiple endings with all sorts of challenging riddles to solve

I was always confused by the way the online community cried about how cryptic this game is... even as a kid I knew all the secrets and ways to advance. Maybe I just had good connections on the playground for tips or maybe it was those Nintendo Power issues and the Game Atlas... this game was featured in so many Tips and Tricks books. I actually encourage gamers new to this one to use only those old guides from the late 80s/early 90s to beat it. Extremely enjoyable that way!

I especially get annoyed with the hate on this game. It is without question a TOP game for the NES. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by killerkobra
spelling

[Strange | 1,700]

I’m sure I can think of a few more but the one that immediately comes to mind for me is Donkey Kong 3. I know it isn’t the Donkey Kong arcade game anyone wanted, but it’s fun in its own right. Nintendo was chasing what was popular in the arcades - shooters. But instead of just another space shooter you were a dude with pesticides in a greenhouse. Idk, I don’t have any reasons other than I think it’s a lot of fun and I don’t understand besides the naming why it’s so disliked. Would it have been better received if it was called “Greenhouse” or “Stanley’s Greenhouse” and not billed as a Donkey Kong game? Maybe.

I used to work in a greenhouse and I would have shit myself if a giant ape came in and started screwing up the works.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,578]

15 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I know: it's way too difficult for modern hold-my-hand gaming babies, but you know what I mean)...

Au contraire.  If we consider the Souls genre to be the successor to Zelda II, it would mean its actually the modern crowd that truly appreciates that style of difficulty.

[Gloves | 11,827]

Just now, Reed Rothchild said:

Au contraire.  If we consider the Souls genre to be the successor to Zelda II, it would mean its actually the modern crowd that truly appreciates that style of difficulty.

The Souls series is difficult?

huehuehuehue

[Reed Rothchild | 9,578]

Just now, Gloves said:

The Souls series is difficult?

huehuehuehue

Gloves: I can platinum Demon's Souls in 40 minutes flat, but I still can't get past that bus microphone boss.

[Tulpa | 3,534]

13 hours ago, Sumez said:

The CD-i Zelda games are super enjoyable to play! That is, Wand of Gamelon and Faces of Evil, not that weird third one.

 

They're definitely playable and no worse than some other games from that era. But Zelda's Adventure is HORRID.

[Gloves | 11,827]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Gloves: I can platinum Demon's Souls in 40 minutes flat, but I still can't get past that bus microphone boss.

REEEEEEEEE!

[Tulpa | 3,534]

3 hours ago, killerkobra said:

Another one that clearly needs attention and defending is Castlevania II: Simons Quest

I was always confused by the way the online community cried about how cryptic this game is... even as a kid I knew all the secrets and ways to advance. Maybe I just had good connections on the playground for tips or maybe it was those Nintendo Power issues and the Game Atlas... this game was featured in so many Tips and Tricks books. I actually encourage gamers new to this one to use only those old guides from the late 80s/early 90s to beat it. Extremely enjoyable that way!

 

The crypticness is mainly from the bad translation, bad clues, or both.

Some examples.

"A flame flickers inside the ring of fire." This one became nonsensical because the original Japanese meant to say it was hidden from daylight in a cave. Whoever was translating it managed to conflate daylight with fire ring, and left out the hidden part.

"Don’t look into the death star, or you will die." This one was originally a Fist of the North Star reference, which was butchered into a weird Star Wars reference. Fortunately it has nothing to do with advancing in the game. Still a little WTF.

"A crooked trader is offering bum deals in this town." The Japanese text says they're in hiding, and the translation was due to "hiding" also meaning in some contexts that they're crooks.

"A flame is on top of the 6th tree in Denis Woods." This one is actually translated correctly, but the clue itself is wrong. It's not in Denis Woods, it's on a path that is (sort of) nearby.

The big one, "Wait for a soul with a red crystal on Deborah cliff." The Japanese is "Hold a red crystal in front of Deborah cliff and wait for a wind." They mistranslated "wind" as "soul," and my theory is that they were familiar with "kamikaze" (kami means spirit or divine, kaze means wind, so divine wind or "soul" wind, if you conflate spirit and soul) and accidentally switched the two words. The Japanese also forgot to put in that you have to kneel.

That's why I prefer the retranslated version by Bizqwit, who cleaned up a lot of the mess. He also got rid of the textbox that interrupts you on the day/night transitions and lets you play through.

But it's not a bad game, just has some annoying aspects in the original.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Tulpa

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

Donkey Kong Country 3. Its gets dumped on a lot compared to the other two. But its my favorite, and that’s not nostalgia talking. I didn’t even know 3 existed until 2011ieh when I first started collecting, while I did play 1 and 2 constantly as a kid. 

It has a fresh setting (non-tropical), a more engaging over world, some interesting new enemies, a little over world side quest, etc. The only thing I think it doesn’t do as well as the other games is the music. Its not bad, just doesn’t have any iconic music that the other two did.

[MagusSmurf | 577]

Legend of Dragoon's situation is a little weird. The game was published by Sony and had a big marketing campaign (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEs2OlW25AoI ) but the critics weren't particularly impressed and the game seemed to get a lot of online mockery. I think being a high-profile PS1 JRPG with pre-rendered backgrounds and 3D battles by a company that wasn't Square in an era when most of their other competition fell back on sprites, plus some other suspicious but often overstated resemblances with FFVII, invited some easy comparisons that just weren't gonna go favorably for Dragoon. I played through the first disk a few years ago and thought it was reasonably good but rough in a lot of ways.

The game sold great in North America though and it's basically "the non-Square PS1 JRPG that regular gamers who had a PS1 back in the day might have been reasonably likely to hear about or play." At least on gamefaqs it seems to rate fairly highly on the metrics that randos can easily make low-effort contributions to (the game's average score, polls of the day) but its average review score is as mediocre as the critics' and I never get the vibe that the game is particularly beloved by most of the people still deep into playing and talking about JRPGs.

[killerkobra | 268]

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

The crypticness is mainly from the bad translation, bad clues, or both.

Some examples.

"A flame flickers inside the ring of fire." This one became nonsensical because the original Japanese meant to say it was hidden from daylight in a cave. Whoever was translating it managed to conflate daylight with fire ring, and left out the hidden part.

"Don’t look into the death star, or you will die." This one was originally a Fist of the North Star reference, which was butchered into a weird Star Wars reference. Fortunately it has nothing to do with advancing in the game. Still a little WTF.

"A crooked trader is offering bum deals in this town." The Japanese text says they're in hiding, and the translation was due to "hiding" also meaning in some contexts that they're crooks.

"A flame is on top of the 6th tree in Denis Woods." This one is actually translated correctly, but the clue itself is wrong. It's not in Denis Woods, it's on a path that is (sort of) nearby.

The big one, "Wait for a soul with a red crystal on Deborah cliff." The Japanese is "Hold a red crystal in front of Deborah cliff and wait for a wind." They mistranslated "wind" as "soul," and my theory is that they were familiar with "kamikaze" (kami means spirit or divine, kaze means wind, so divine wind or "soul" wind, if you conflate spirit and soul) and accidentally switched the two words. The Japanese also forgot to put in that you have to kneel.

That's why I prefer the retranslated version by Bizqwit, who cleaned up a lot of the mess. He also got rid of the textbox that interrupts you on the day/night transitions and lets you play through.

But it's not a bad game, just has some annoying aspects in the original.

Thats why I say use those old guides for a very enjoyable experience. All of these "bad clues" or translations are irrelevant then!

Also, the whole "annoying" textbox never bothered me in the slightest, It added to the experience. It gave you the time to process the fact that everything is going to be a heck of a lot harder now that Night was coming and all the bad guys would be stronger!

[Brickman | 4,012]

3 hours ago, LeatherRebel5150 said:

Donkey Kong Country 3. Its gets dumped on a lot compared to the other two. But its my favorite, and that’s not nostalgia talking. I didn’t even know 3 existed until 2011ieh when I first started collecting, while I did play 1 and 2 constantly as a kid. 

It has a fresh setting (non-tropical), a more engaging over world, some interesting new enemies, a little over world side quest, etc. The only thing I think it doesn’t do as well as the other games is the music. Its not bad, just doesn’t have any iconic music that the other two did.

I'm actually going through all the donkey kong games with my friend and we just started DKC3. Does it get better?

We're on world 3 and the level designs feel a bit lazy and the music doesn't feel as epic as the first two. It's also been insanely easy so far. Kiddy Kong also feels so useless. 

[Tulpa | 3,534]

2 hours ago, killerkobra said:

Also, the whole "annoying" textbox never bothered me in the slightest, It added to the experience. It gave you the time to process the fact that everything is going to be a heck of a lot harder now that Night was coming and all the bad guys would be stronger!

Maybe after the first couple of times, but after awhile, I was like "I GET IT!"

Retranslated was a godsend. Sky would darken, music changed, but you could keep right on killing things.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Tulpa

[Californication | 1,481]

1 hour ago, Brickman said:

I'm actually going through all the donkey kong games with my friend and we just started DKC3. Does it get better?

We're on world 3 and the level designs feel a bit lazy and the music doesn't feel as epic as the first two. It's also been insanely easy so far. Kiddy Kong also feels so useless. 

I quit after the first couple areas, but they say it gets better in the later areas.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,091]

5 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Au contraire.  If we consider the Souls genre to be the successor to Zelda II, it would mean its actually the modern crowd that truly appreciates that style of difficulty.

Funny you should mention the Souls games.  That's what people always bring up when mentioning that games are still challenging: Dark Souls!  You've heard the term "NES hard," well thirty years on and apparently we're down from an entire console library to just a single series

...And yes, I know there are other tough modern games out there, but it seems that the only game anyone ever talks about is Dark Souls...

[fcgamer | 4,753]

Super Mario Bros 3 is an amazing game. I wish it were longer and more difficult.

[Makar | 1,946]

20 hours ago, Lynda Monica said:

I know I keep bringing it up, but Star Fox Zero is one of the saddest cases of a game being reviewed poorly by "critics" who can't actually play games. Star Fox Zero is an extraordinary game, and it's easily the best game in the series so far. People tend to be very nostalgic for Star Fox 64, but once you get good at Star Fox Zero and aim for 100%, it really makes Star Fox 64 look old and quaint.

Even more impressively, I found myself frustrated when I revisited Star Fox 64 on the 3DS as there were many times I thought to myself "I should have been able to get that guy!" because Star Fox 64 is a more constrained play style than Zero.

While Star Fox Zero takes a lot of getting used to, the controls are a huge benefit to the series and moves the combat forward in a good way. I'm always urging people to give it a second chance, as it's one of Nintendo's most misunderstood games.

If they ever released it for switch, I would play it. Never owned a Wii U. Star fox assault is another very good star fox game. The multiplayer battles were always a blast with friends. 

[Tanooki | 4,950]

I'm with Makar on that one, Star Fox Zero isn't misunderstood, it was a great game made bad because of forced wonky very poorly implemented touch controls they gimmicked into a title ruining it fairly well in the process.  Her own words say it enough despite the love saying you really really have to work at it to try and get used to the controls, and maybe if you can juggle it, then it would in fact benefit the series.  But when you have to make a job out of getting some odd grip, steps, series of mechanics down to do what a button could on its own...it's bad design.  I've been waiting now what 5 years hoping they'd stop popping stupid pills and port it to the Switch, so want to play it, but wouldn't touch it when I briefly still had that god awful console while it was on the market because how badly it was setup.  Seems like a huge missed opportunity make it right.

 

Also many posts in a row suck so...

Killerkobra is right, as is strange, and sumez.

Castlevania II deserves virtually none of the hate, it was so widely covered in NP magazine, other guides too, and just tip sections in the most random of stuff (even a worlds of power book by the chapter.)  Anything that would have screwed you over was overly covered.  Play it as if you're in the period with what was available, and it's a highly enjoyable game...a game that really in a way inspired the stupidly called metroidvania franchise too if you look at how it works.

DK3 is fantastic, dumped on for being too different, but that difference makes it an utterly amazing game mixing some light DK mechanics with a single screen vertical shooter mechanic usually seen in like Galaga and those sorts.  The game is fast, harder than many, and required some really deeper added thought given how the bugs, bugs blowing up suicidally, the annoying worms, and super DDT mechanics played out.  It was my first home DK game, still own it, it's awesome.

And yes...sumez is right, people are just bastards about it, but the Zelda CDi games (not the broken Adventure one) that are clones in the style of Zelda II are not only highly playable (though lacking NCL/NOA polish) fun games with quite a lot to do, clear, gather, and experience. They're not easy, Zelda II hard really how they work.  I had Faces of Evil in the day (Hotel Mario too, fantastic elevator action/mario bros hybrid) and I finished it a few times.  Did you know, someone in the last few years had converted 100% of it (and Wand of Gamelon too) with high resolution assets into functional free (though clearly checkered) windows playable games?  I can't point to them here, but they're up on the archive, and work fantastic on PC, cheese ball laughable FMVS and all.  Largely what blew wasn't the games, it was not using the cloned gravis pad as the remote control thumbstick was shit for games in most cases.

[Bonanza125 | 55]

On 7/6/2022 at 6:46 PM, Tulpa said:

Spiritual Warfare is by far the best Wisdom Tree NES game, and is actually a fair adventure game.

 

That game was like Zelda 1, Adventures of Lolo and Lode Runner all in one.

[Lynda Monica | 350]

2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I'm with Makar on that one, Star Fox Zero isn't misunderstood, it was a great game made bad because of forced wonky very poorly implemented touch controls they gimmicked into a title ruining it fairly well in the process.  Her own words say it enough despite the love saying you really really have to work at it to try and get used to the controls, and maybe if you can juggle it, then it would in fact benefit the series.  But when you have to make a job out of getting some odd grip, steps, series of mechanics down to do what a button could on its own...it's bad design.  I've been waiting now what 5 years hoping they'd stop popping stupid pills and port it to the Switch, so want to play it, but wouldn't touch it when I briefly still had that god awful console while it was on the market because how badly it was setup.  Seems like a huge missed opportunity make it right.

There are no touch controls at all. Gyro aiming is what was unique about Zero.

A game not being immediately intuitive does not make it bad design by the way. It makes it have a learning curve, but it works flawlessly once you're good at it. I understand some players not wanting to put in the time to learn it, but that doesn't instantly make the game worse.

The issue is that Star Fox 64 is a game that's extremely simple to understand, and Star Fox Zero isn't. For a lot of players who just try it out for a few stages and get frustrated, it's easy to understand why they'd prefer Star Fox 64. For those who take the time to learn how to play Star Fox Zero though, it's an unquestionably superior game.

Any time a game gets blasted for poor controls, you have to take a step back and think about why there are so many players who can play it flawlessly, and maybe think to yourself that it's not actually the game's fault.

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

4 hours ago, Brickman said:

I'm actually going through all the donkey kong games with my friend and we just started DKC3. Does it get better?

We're on world 3 and the level designs feel a bit lazy and the music doesn't feel as epic as the first two. It's also been insanely easy so far. Kiddy Kong also feels so useless. 

I don’t know how to respond to that. I liked all the levels and worlds. So if you don’t like it by world 3 I doubt it will get any better for you. The music was the one thing I mentioned was lacking in the game. Its definitely not as epic. Not bad but also not memorable. Kiddy to me is no different then DK in the first one. Just the bigger/less agile monkey of the game. Dixie to me is the best across all the games for her flying ability and I only ever use Diddy/Kiddy when I absolutely have to because I got hit with Dixie. Same concept with Diddy/DK in the first game 

[Brickman | 4,012]

47 minutes ago, LeatherRebel5150 said:

I don’t know how to respond to that. I liked all the levels and worlds. So if you don’t like it by world 3 I doubt it will get any better for you. The music was the one thing I mentioned was lacking in the game. Its definitely not as epic. Not bad but also not memorable. Kiddy to me is no different then DK in the first one. Just the bigger/less agile monkey of the game. Dixie to me is the best across all the games for her flying ability and I only ever use Diddy/Kiddy when I absolutely have to because I got hit with Dixie. Same concept with Diddy/DK in the first game 

Ahhh ok. I thought maybe the first couple of worlds were maybe not so good then got really good, so was just wondering. I have no choice but to see it through because we want to get through them all. Just feels a little bland after DKC and DKC2 to me. Not a terrible game but personally not great imo.

 

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

On 7/6/2022 at 4:52 PM, Gloves said:

Legend of Dragoon is one of the best RPGs on the PS1.

 

On 7/6/2022 at 6:00 PM, Sumez said:

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything bad about that game?
I haven't played it yet, but seems to be a really popular one.

 

On 7/6/2022 at 6:23 PM, Reed Rothchild said:

 

Oh you mean Sony's painfully generic "cinematic" Final Fantasy ripoff with incredibly tedious gameplay, incomprehensible lore, and paper thin characters? That Legend of Dragoon?

It's so terrible. I challenge anyone to read even just the prologue summary without smacking their head on the desk in front of them. Seriously, it's jibberish. https://legendofdragoon.fandom.com/wiki/Story

Next thing you know, @Gloves will be saying that Beyond the Beyond is better than Chrono Trigger.

Also, I can't believe anyone would ever defend Spirit Tracks. Where Phantom Hourglass was everything a portable Zelda should be, Spirit Tracks took the worst elements of every prior game and doubled down. It's easily the worst LoZ game I've ever played and I hated everything about that damn train.

Just to be fair, I tried to think of some terrible games that I actually like, so you guys could come back at me, but I really couldn't think of anything. Not sure if this is because I'm a pretentious snob who only plays highly rated games or if I'm boring. I'm gonna go with pretentious snob, but I'll update again if I remember a bad game I love.

[guitarzombie | 927]

Die Hard for NES.  The shooting controls are a bit weird for the SMG but Im sure that was there to get the feeling of action to dodge bullets.  One of the most accurate movie adaptations if not THE most accurate on the NES.  Also lots of great and different endings.  Lots of replayability.