General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Link | 2,714]

Just now, OptOut said:

Indeed it is.

••••* you’re fast. I wasn’t nearly done writing and fat-fingered it. 
(I have never censored a simple swear word before. Is that necessary?)

2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Indeed it is. But best addressed not by sinking to their level, right?

I won’t deny the validity of you being offended. In case it’s not obvious, that was very intentionally offensive. 

I knew exactly what I was doing. At least I got fcgamer’s attention this time. Let’s see if he responds to the content of the question this third time. ...

...

.

...

 

In the case of skirting the line prior, I was not using the N word, rather I was speaking about it, the power that it has, and also responding to accusations that I am too easily offended.

Funny how it goes, isn’t it. Codify what’s wrong but don’t actually think about it, and when something new comes up, it isn’t wrong since I don’t understand why anyone would think it wrong and I don’t want to listen to why that might be. But mushrooms and pepperoni as “American” pizza is incredibly harmful. Give me a break.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

Politifact updated the Trump-O-Meter

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/

Womp Womp

[Link | 2,714]

6 hours ago, fcgamer said:

What they were doing initially wasn't cultural appropriation, it was considered offensive as they were allegedly exoticising other ethnicities.

By making the change, they would be guilty of cultural appropriation though, if you consider food to be part of one's culture, which I do.

 

Why is exoticizing others okay?

Is it cultural appropriation, say, for me to make chana masala? spanakopita? Somali stew? caprese salad? 

What if I sell Link Patel’s Chana Masala, Link Giannopoulos’ Spanakopita, Link Dhibwaale’s Stew, Link Manicotti’s Caprese? 

How is it not cultural appropriation when using the stereotype name but it is when you drop it?

[Silent Hill | 276]

9 hours ago, Link said:

12 hours ago, Silent Hill said:

Please correct me if I’m off base, but are you referring to disparities in outcomes?

That’s one factor. There are also disparities in initiation, environment, and resources which stand on their own and also have demonstrable effect on outcomes.

Can you provide some color on how those disparities relate to the point I was making regarding arrests without harm?

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

3 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Can you provide some color on how those disparities relate to the point I was making regarding arrests without harm?

You do realize that systemic racism isn't just about police brutality right? It's about the entire structure of American society which has for hundreds of years been painstakingly designed to keep white people in power and keep people of color in poverty. 

[Link | 2,714]

Just now, Silent Hill said:

Can you provide some color on how those disparities relate to the point I was making regarding arrests without harm?

You are asking me to prove a negative so no, I cannot. When there is not harm, of course that is good. You can’t look at one individual encounter and extrapolate it to everything, though.

When there is harm, it disproportionately comes to black people.

Watch the show, folks.

https://youtu.be/rkoaB3WuQ28

 

 

[OptOut | 8,889]

17 minutes ago, Link said:

In the case of skirting the line prior, I was not using the N word, rather I was speaking about it, the power that it has, and also responding to accusations that I am too easily offended.

Yeah I get that, which was why it didn't cross the line and wasn't deleted by a mod. Similarly your F slur was uttered in the context of imitating a bigot. Personally I felt THAT use case went a bit too far, but I'd put it on the line not over it. This time I feel you went to far, it was contextually not clear what you meant by it and it seemed needlessly crass.

Not sure what further fun you are getting out of continuing to engage with @fcgamer tbh. He has made a lot of noise in this thread but not much of it has stuck. I don't think he's really looking for a coherent argument, I think he's just a provocateur who likes the jostle, and has his own particular views on things. I doubt you'll be able to reach him on anything substantial, he's clearly made up his mind, and trust me when I say he's a stubborn bastard! 

[Link | 2,714]

2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Similarly your F slur was uttered in the context of imitating a bigot. Personally I felt THAT use case went a bit too far, but I'd put it on the line not over it.

Well you were joking that the thread had gotten too civil. I only wanted to oblige  

5 minutes ago, OptOut said:

I don't think he's really looking for a coherent argument... I doubt you'll be able to reach him on anything substantial,

Just so long as it’s obvious. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

46 minutes ago, Link said:

57 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Can you provide some color on how those disparities relate to the point I was making regarding arrests without harm?

You are asking me to prove a negative so no, I cannot. When there is not harm, of course that is good. You can’t look at one individual encounter and extrapolate it to everything, though.

When there is harm, it disproportionately comes to black people.

Watch the show, folks.

https://youtu.be/rkoaB3WuQ28

So, you can't "prove a negative", and admit that you can't look at a single encounter and extrapolate it (which was my entire point to begin with) but yet continue to say that it disproportionately affects black people, and use a single encounter to prove your point?

Am I lost here?

 

PS: That video doesn't "prove" anything to me, especially since we have absolutely no context as to what happened up until the point that he was removed from his vehicle, or what happened after he was removed. Dude could have had a warrant for all I know. Without that context, this video is just out to intentionally paint police in a bad light and serves no positive purpose. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Silent Hill

[Silent Hill | 276]

43 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

47 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Can you provide some color on how those disparities relate to the point I was making regarding arrests without harm?

You do realize that systemic racism isn't just about police brutality right? It's about the entire structure of American society which has for hundreds of years been painstakingly designed to keep white people in power and keep people of color in poverty. 

What I do realize is I made a comment regarding a post on how a white person who is arrested without harm is viewed as "white privilege" without actually looking at the bigger picture, and why that mindset is a problem. And instead of having a discussion around that specific topic, people want to pivot back to a generic discussion of systemic racism without discussing or providing any details. I'd think the focus would be on what's still, in current times, "designed" to keep white people in power and people of color in poverty. 

[OptOut | 8,889]

5 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

What I do realize is I made a comment regarding a post on how a white person who is arrested without harm is viewed as "white privilege" without actually looking at the bigger picture, and why that mindset is a problem.

You know, on the singular point of that Facebook post being poor evidence of white privilege, actually yeah I agree with you. In isolation it's not enough to prove white privilege, it's actually a pretty poor example to be honest.

But you haven't done a good job of explaining why that mindset of people wishing to expound white privilege is a problem either, to be honest.

Then again you also deny the existence of systemic oppression and racism, which shows there is clearly a vast gap in your understanding of the way society works, and how our history has influenced it.

Is there a reason you want to deny systemic racism? Is it because you think that all the bad things that happen disproportionately to minorities is their fault on an individual basis, due to the choices they make and the life circumstances they find themselves in? Or is is because you actually don't believe that there are disproportionately negative life outcomes associated with being black?

I'm genuinely curious what your ideas on this issue are, because so far you have done a pretty poor job of explaining yourself.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

28 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

PS: That video doesn't "prove" anything to me, especially since we have absolutely no context as to what happened up until the point that he was removed from his vehicle, or what happened after he was removed. Dude could have had a warrant for all I know. Without that context, this video is just out to intentionally paint police in a bad light and serves no positive purpose. 

The police claimed to have smelled marijuana. There was no warrant. When they searched the car, there was no marijuana. There's your context. It was racist racial profiling.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

1 hour ago, Link said:

Why is exoticizing others okay?

Is it cultural appropriation, say, for me to make chana masala? spanakopita? Somali stew? caprese salad? 

What if I sell Link Patel’s Chana Masala, Link Giannopoulos’ Spanakopita, Link Dhibwaale’s Stew, Link Manicotti’s Caprese? 

How is it not cultural appropriation when using the stereotype name but it is when you drop it?

Jose is a Spanish name. I know many people with that name. If it were first and last name combined, maybe it could be considered a stereotype, but a common Hispanic first name in and of itself isn't a stereotype , it's a popular Hispanic first name.  Come on.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

1 hour ago, Link said:

••••* you’re fast. I wasn’t nearly done writing and fat-fingered it. 
(I have never censored a simple swear word before. Is that necessary?)

I won’t deny the validity of you being offended. In case it’s not obvious, that was very intentionally offensive. 

I knew exactly what I was doing. At least I got fcgamer’s attention this time. Let’s see if he responds to the content of the question this third time. ...

...

.

...

 

In the case of skirting the line prior, I was not using the N word, rather I was speaking about it, the power that it has, and also responding to accusations that I am too easily offended.

Funny how it goes, isn’t it. Codify what’s wrong but don’t actually think about it, and when something new comes up, it isn’t wrong since I don’t understand why anyone would think it wrong and I don’t want to listen to why that might be. But mushrooms and pepperoni as “American” pizza is incredibly harmful. Give me a break.

I already answered the earlier questions buddy.

Oh and btw, accents aren't based on ethnicity, therefore accents shouldn't be offensive. Do some research, please.

[Link | 2,714]

7 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

So, you can't "prove a negative", and admit that you can't look at a single encounter and extrapolate it (which was my entire point to begin with) but yet continue to say that it disproportionately affects black people, and use a single encounter to prove your point?

Am I lost here?

I guess you are. Let me help you.

Breonna Taylor.

Alton Sterling. 

Philando Castile.

Eric Garner.

George Floyd.

Trayvon Martin. 

Tamir Rice.

Elijah McClain.

Sandra Bland.

Rodney King.

Freddie Gray.

Michael Brown.

Amadou Diallo.

Sean Bell.

Sam Dubose.

Aiyana Stanley Jones.

Fred Hampton.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

Rekia Boyd.

Kimani Gray.

Walter Scott.

Eric Harris.

Tanisha Anderson.

Dante Parker.

Delrawn Small.

Laquan McDonald.

George Mann.

Akai Gurley.

Ezell Ford.

Michelle Cusseaux.

Jerame Reid.

Darrius Stewart.

Felix Kumi.

Tyree Crawford.

Stephon Clark. 

...

The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans, proprtionate to their race. The proportionate rate at which police kill unarmed black Americans is 2½ the rate at which police kill unarmed white Americans. The rate at which police engage black Americans in encounters is nearly three times that of white Americans.

Maybe this is because black Americans are disproportionately more likely to live in areas of poverty and crime as people have stated earlier ITT. When I ask those people what the reason for that is, there’s never a serious answer. I’ve given extensive answer to that at least once but the short version is: The system is racist. I’m not, I gather you’d say you’re not, this cop or that may not be, but the system IS. And saying that is not true, saying there is not a problem, perpetuates the problem.

[Link | 2,714]

28 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

people want to pivot back to a generic discussion of systemic racism without discussing or providing any details

I’ve given plenty in the past. 

 

29 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

a white person who is arrested without harm is viewed as "white privilege" without actually looking at the bigger picture, and why that mindset is a problem.

When a white guy doesn’t come to harm and a black guy does in the same scenario, the white guy has an advantage. How do we determine whether this is race-related? By looking at large numbers of cases. When we do this, you say it’s generic. When we look at one, you say that’s only one. 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

7 minutes ago, Link said:

The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans, proprtionate to their race. The proportionate rate at which police kill unarmed black Americans is 2½ the rate at which police kill unarmed white Americans. The rate at which police engage black Americans in encounters is nearly three times that of white Americans.

Maybe this is because black Americans are disproportionately more likely to live in areas of poverty and crime as people have stated earlier ITT. When I ask those people what the reason for that is, there’s never a serious answer. I’ve given extensive answer to that at least once but the short version is: The system is racist. I’m not, I gather you’d say you’re not, this cop or that may not be, but the system IS. And saying that is not true, saying there is not a problem, perpetuates the problem.

Couldn't have said it better. 

[Link | 2,714]

11 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I already answered the earlier questions buddy.

Oh and btw, accents aren't based on ethnicity, therefore accents shouldn't be offensive. Do some research, please.

Don’t call me buddy, pal.

No, I don’t believe you did answer the question. But feel free to summarize it. 

I’m well aware that accents come from cultural immersion, not heredity so you can stop telling me to “do some research”. Asinine. 

Regarding the related but separate point,m in the question you did not answer, if fake accents are not offensive, then why is it offensive to make fun of an accent as Hank Azaria I did? 

[OptOut | 8,889]

3 minutes ago, Link said:

Maybe this is because black Americans are disproportionately more likely to live in areas of poverty and crime as people have stated earlier ITT. When I ask those people what the reason for that is, there’s never a serious answer. I’ve given extensive answer to that at least once but the short version is: The system is racist. I’m not, I gather you’d say you’re not, this cop or that may not be, but the system IS. And saying that is not true, saying there is not a problem, perpetuates the problem.

They don't understand what you mean when you say the system is racist dude. That's what most deniers of systemic racism don't understand. Because if they understood it, it would be obvious to them and they would accept it.

 

Here is the simplest way I think it can possibly be explained:

First of all, before we even talk about the specifics, it is absolutely VITAL to understand this point... You have to understand it is a MACRO socio-economic issue which has outcomes at the MICRO level in terms of individual's lives. This means that although individuals suffer due to it, it is very hard if not impossible to change at the individual level. This is why pointing to individual choices and individual life circumstances as either the cause or the solution is invalid. Many people cannot separate individualism and determinism as philosophical and practical constructs that guide our life outcomes, and I think this is a BIG cause of misunderstanding straight away before we even get to the actual race issues.

Now, talking specifically about systemic racism specifically in the USA, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to DRASTICALLY oversimplify this explanation to keep it brief. It basically boils down to the wealth gap between the white majority population and other groups, but we will focus specifically on black people here.

Essentially, since the beginning of US history as an independent nation wealth within family's has been primarily accrued in two main ways. The intergenerational passage of wealth from old to young, and rising property prices. In BOTH these regards black people have been and continue to be disadvantaged and it has directly impacted their life outcomes.

Obviously, during slavery most black people were property, so they neither owned nor passed down wealth. After slavery ended they began from scratch, while white people owned the majority of land and industry. While many white people and families moved west and were given land for free by the government, black people were ineligible for free land. Many poor white people became much richer due to the increasing value of this land as the generations rolled by, while poor black people stayed poor.

Then there were Jim crow laws and redlining in cities, where white people were allowed to buy property in the best parts of growing cities, whilst black people were segregated and literally banned from owning property in many places. These are all HUGE disadvantages when the two main ways most people get wealthy, statistically, is through intergenerational wealth transfer and property price increases.

And a lot of that redlining shit was happening late into the twentieth century, and we're still feeling the effects today. All those broken homes? No shit when dad can't get a job and the bank has foreclosed on your house. Bad neighborhoods with bad schools? No shit when schools are funded by property taxes and black people have been boxed into the lowest valued properties possible over a hundred years. Can't vote because your a felon and your shitty neighborhood is full of crime? Tough shit. It's your fault because you made a bad choice, I guess.

 

Fuck this thread Jesus.

 

[Silent Hill | 276]

27 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Then again you also deny the existence of systemic oppression and racism, which shows there is clearly a vast gap in your understanding of the way society works, and how our history has influenced it.

Is there a reason you want to deny systemic racism? Is it because you think that all the bad things that happen disproportionately to minorities is their fault on an individual basis, due to the choices they make and the life circumstances they find themselves in? Or is is because you actually don't believe that there are disproportionately negative life outcomes associated with being black?

I'm genuinely curious what your ideas on this issue are, because so far you have done a pretty poor job of explaining yourself.

I don't believe true systemic racism exists today, because I understand what real systemic racism is, and how it was in place prior to the Civil Rights act (and I'm aware of instances since then that have mostly been rectified, that disproportionately affect minorities, though IMO it's more of an effect on class than actual race). I also understand that there have been trickle down effects from the pre-Civil Rights era that are felt today, though I don't think it's on quite the scale that most people seem to claim. So many examples of people from all races and cultural backgrounds "beating the system" so-to-speak and becoming successful. 

I think bad things can (and do) happen to all people in general, and those in lower class/poverty have quite the shitty hand dealt, but that doesn't necessarily prevent them from succeeding in life, or that it only affects a specific race. 

That said, I strongly believe that personal actions and family structure have way more of an impact on outcomes than this overarching systemic racism that the blame is placed on. Single parent (mother) households have been researched to the point that there are direct links between that family structure and crime, poverty and education (even Obama promoted this). The fact that ~75% of black children are born into a single parent household is alarming and ties directly into those aforementioned outcomes. This has the same affect on any race, but the percentages are much different between each race, and even then, between each culture/background within each race (ie. black immigrants vs. black americans).

(Side note: BLM wants to "disrupt the Western-prescribed family structure", thus increasing the chances of falling into crime, poverty and lack of education)

If America was so heavily designed in favor of white people, then I don't think we'd be seeing Asians and Indians prosper in our society at the rate that they do. (Both have a greater average household income than white people, for example) 

Even things like Affirmative Action were put into place to help close the gap in education opportunity, so why would we do that if the intention is to keep black people and minorities uneducated and stuck in poverty? (I've discussed earlier how Affirmative Action actually has some unintended negative results too) This is also an example of a "privilege" that white people don't have. 

Hopefully this isn't a "poor" explanation of my thoughts. 

[OptOut | 8,889]

It's not a poor explanation no. Thank you for elaborating.

However, you do seem to misconstrue the meaning of systemic racism. It seems you understand it to be an intentional, or somehow planned system?

For example, you talk about how affirmative action wouldn't happen if systemic racism existed, because it wouldn't fit with the plan of white oppression of minorities.

However, systemic racism is not in fact a conspiracy, it is not effected and controlled by sinister agents of white power. It is the outcome of a series of historical processes that have certainly been guided and intentionally exploited by powerful people (of course most of whom happen to be white), but no social structure of that size and scale can be directly controlled by people.

If you have been talking to people who think that systemic racism is like a secret book of laws and regulations to hurt black people, they know as little about the issue as you seem to.

[Silent Hill | 276]

50 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

1 hour ago, Silent Hill said:

PS: That video doesn't "prove" anything to me, especially since we have absolutely no context as to what happened up until the point that he was removed from his vehicle, or what happened after he was removed. Dude could have had a warrant for all I know. Without that context, this video is just out to intentionally paint police in a bad light and serves no positive purpose. 

The police claimed to have smelled marijuana. There was no warrant. When they searched the car, there was no marijuana. There's your context. It was racist racial profiling.

Got it. So getting pulled over, police smelling weed and asking the driver to step out and search the vehicle automatically equals racial profiling. No way for the driver to just say "I don't have weed, go ahead and search my vehicle"?

If the police are wrong, let them prove themselves wrong. Standing your ground and forcing them to remove you from the vehicle doesn't really help you in that interaction. He'd have a much better case if he was taken to jail after willingly exiting the vehicle and letting them search for weed that wasn't present.

Hypothetically, if the officer was black, would you feel the same way? Or if the driver was white? Race doesn't matter in this situation, no matter how much you think it does. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if your thought was, "well if he were white, he wouldn't have been pulled over, or asked to step out of the vehicle" - because after all, that's white privilege)  

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

6 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Got it. So getting pulled over, police smelling weed and asking the driver to step out and search the vehicle automatically equals racial profiling. No way for the driver to just say "I don't have weed, go ahead and search my vehicle"?

If the police are wrong, let them prove themselves wrong. Standing your ground and forcing them to remove you from the vehicle doesn't really help you in that interaction. He'd have a much better case if he was taken to jail after willingly exiting the vehicle and letting them search for weed that wasn't present.

Hypothetically, if the officer was black, would you feel the same way? Or if the driver was white? Race doesn't matter in this situation, no matter how much you think it does. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if your thought was, "well if he were white, he wouldn't have been pulled over, or asked to step out of the vehicle" - because after all, that's white privilege)  

Do you consider yourself a conservative? Because If you do (I genuinely dont know) the idea of “if you have nothing to hide, let them search” goes directly against the 4th amendment. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

Just now, OptOut said:

It's not a poor explanation no. Thank you for elaborating.

However, you do seem to misconstrue the meaning of systemic racism. It seems you understand it to be an intentional, or somehow planned system?

For example, you talk about how affirmative action wouldn't happen if systemic racism existed, because it wouldn't fit with the plan of white oppression of minorities.

However, systemic racism is not in fact a conspiracy, it is not effected and controlled by sinister agents of white power. It is the outcome of a series of historical processes that have certainly been guided and intentionally exploited by powerful people (of course most of whom happen to be white), but no social structure of that size and scale can be directly controlled by people.

If you have been talking to people who think that systemic racism is like a secret book of laws and regulations to hurt black people, they know as little about the issue as you seem to.

So what are we fighting against exactly? If it's just "the outcome of a series of historical processes" but you can't identify current processes, then aren't we just chasing a ghost or are we just trying to "correct" history (ie. Affirmative Action)? And if it's not controlled by people, then what exactly controls it? Wouldn't you need to identify the "control" in order to correct it?

This is why my thoughts around culture, family structure and personal decisions have much more tangible actions that can be taken that will close the gap in crime, education and poverty for all races affected.

This is where I get lost. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

Just now, MrWunderful said:

10 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Got it. So getting pulled over, police smelling weed and asking the driver to step out and search the vehicle automatically equals racial profiling. No way for the driver to just say "I don't have weed, go ahead and search my vehicle"?

If the police are wrong, let them prove themselves wrong. Standing your ground and forcing them to remove you from the vehicle doesn't really help you in that interaction. He'd have a much better case if he was taken to jail after willingly exiting the vehicle and letting them search for weed that wasn't present.

Hypothetically, if the officer was black, would you feel the same way? Or if the driver was white? Race doesn't matter in this situation, no matter how much you think it does. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if your thought was, "well if he were white, he wouldn't have been pulled over, or asked to step out of the vehicle" - because after all, that's white privilege)  

Do you consider yourself a conservative? Because If you do (I genuinely dont know) the idea of “if you have nothing to hide, let them search” goes directly against the 4th amendment. 

I've never been much of a political person to be honest, so I share views across the spectrum. I understand the 4th amendment, but I also understand "probable cause". I'm not trying to say that all police are honest when using that claim, but if you don't have what they think you do, then why not just let them search your vehicle? Worst case scenario, you let them prove themselves wrong and you're back on your way, but with a possible feeling of violation. (I wouldn't feel violated personally, but I'd be annoyed at the situation)  If I felt like my rights were violated, I'd fight the battle in court after the fact, not needlessly escalate the situation.