General Current Events/Political Discussion

[cartman | 195]

1 hour ago, OptOut said:

Because either one of two things.

Either people care about Apu and are glad that it changed, or they don't care.

The only people who care about it but are NOT glad it has changed are people who want to use it to hammer home a political point. Like you. Let's face it, you don't care about Apu, you just want something to whine about.

I personally, don't care. I think Apu was funny as it was, and I don't think it was SUPER racist or anything, but I can understand how some people would be hurt or offended by it over the course of three whole decades. I honestly don't care if they keep it or change it. 

But, you are just way too blatant in how you're using it as a talking point to try and bolster your political attacks against the dreaded SJWs. So what? You're fine, I'm fine, we're all fine. You can watch the old episodes, the new ones are shit anyway. 

It's a bit tryhard dude. You REALLY enjoy arguing and fighting, I get it. It's fun. But YAWN. Get over it and move on. Boring. Let's start a new argument, please? Apu is done. 

Well i do dislike these regressive ideas that are becoming normalized in the discourse but also the media itself that does or might get watered down in the future.

[OptOut | 8,889]

1 minute ago, cartman said:

Well i do dislike these regressive ideas that are becoming normalized in the discourse but also the media itself that does or might get watered down in the future.

Oh really? Do you? Well why on earth didn't you say?!

Please elaborate your thoughts on the matter, extensively below, I can't WAIT to hear what you have to say!

...

What's that? The same thing. AGAIN. But this time even more boring and toys thrown out of the pram? 

WAH, you say? BOO HOO?! Well I never! 

...

Oh wow, good point!

Golly gosh guys, wouldn't you PLEASE reconsider! @cartman has reformulated his thoughts, but this time WAY more, and WAY longer, and WAY more even long.

...

I, for one, am convinced. They never should have made Apu gay, that was totally out of character, and a bridge too far. He's married, ferchrissakes. And if other people watch the Simpsons, now they will probably also be Indian, which is FINE, I am totally fine with people being INDIAN. But also what about the children?

Ban Apu, ban the Simpsons, and ban the children. 

THANK YOU @cartman you are super smart, and cool. Good fucking point my friend.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

I'm offended by all this talk of new balance shoes, no joke, it pisses me off. Then again , others in the same minority group as me would know what in referring to.

[Rhino | 105]

1 hour ago, Link said:

I’m sorry, you read “riots” and focused on that one word. 

We send our thoughts and prayers. That, absent further action, is no more meaningful than a shrug. 

Horrors, indeed.

Well, I agree with that. Although hobbies and food are pretty inconsequential and more of a preference or choice relative to that other stuff. And your point is that...

? OK. I don’t know who brought up affirmative action. But the idea was that, non-white/male/straight/xian prospects are/were overwhelmingly passed over, summarily without consideration that they might in fact be the best candidate. Did some managers also miss the point, and “just hire the black guy”? Maybe. Probably, when affirmative action was a hot topic. I don’t know. Tell me though: what negative consequence resulted from that?

Does this really happen?

I’m sorry somebody made you feel like shit. I agree that everyone should carefully consider their opinions and the reasoning behind them, not merely adhere to “one side”. 

What's wrong with empathizing with victims during a tragedy? If you can't donate or volunteer or help otherwise, you should just be silent and say nothing?

My point is that diversity doesn't only mean different races or different genders. Diversity can mean all sorts of things but is often only used to mean different races or genders. 

Let me ask you this, you've been in a car accident, your kid has been taken to the nearest hospital, and they're being operated on by a doctor who was last in his class and only hired to check a diversity box. Your kid dies. Should this type of hiring practice continue in the future because a diverse workforce is more important than hiring the best?

The education thing was an example so as to not piss off people with an actual controversial example. 

The right does it too, like with guns. Oh man if you don't support gun rights, you don't support the constitution which means you don't support America. Generalizing that of course but yeah, this happens on both sides. 

[fcgamer | 4,729]

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

Apu is Indian-American. At least he's described as such. His "biography" says he's born in India and became a naturalized American citizen, and the documentary maker was born in New York City, but clearly both the fictional character and the real documentary person are of the same Indian culture and both identify as such.

At any rate, more people than just the documentary maker had an issue.

So I'm American-Taiwanese since I'm more or less a permanent resident here, paying taxes?

You totally are ignoring the point with this one. Huge difference between a guy like Jeremy Lin, and a random Taiwanense guy I pull out from the rice fields somewhere. Just to clue you in on the matter:

It's quite common for better off Taiwanense to move their families, or to at least send their children abroad  for learning. Yet as I mentioned earlier, they all hold Taiwanense passports, and the fortunate / better off also hold foreign passports.

This point is then a large issue in Taiwan society, with the Anerican-Born Chinese for example feeling at a higher class, as if they are better than the other locals, in the situation they moved back to the "homeland" to study, work, live, etc.

The bloke that made the documentary and the other blokes that were offended were all Indian-Americans, not actual Americans. I'd personally like to see what actual Indians felt. As clearly it looks they just got offended because they personally want to distance themselves from the other culture, which in reality bis normal, if you look at essentially how everyone reacts in said situation.

[Tulpa | 3,516]

40 minutes ago, cartman said:

Wich is the fault of the people making fun of them not the Simpsons. People make fun of others anyway you know that's just how some people are bullying and harassment has always been around.

 

And the Simpsons creators didn't want to be associated with that.

41 minutes ago, cartman said:

There is a difference between harassment and comedy just as with real life violence and depicted that's why the law differentiates between the two aswell.

And the comedy can still go on, just that that one type of offensive stereotypical "comedy" has been jettisoned. Apu is still there, he's still a funny character. He'll just have a less offensive voice.

42 minutes ago, cartman said:

Harassment should be adressed not comedy.

The creators of the Simpsons are taking away a form of harassment. They're doing their part, through their own choice.

44 minutes ago, cartman said:

In a perfect world everyone should go through life without getting abused but abuse happens not because it's encouraged but because the person doesn't care

And if the Simpsons creators kept Apu's voice, that would mean they don't care.

They do care. So they did something about it.

Again, one little change that does not harm Apu's funny character, it just takes away one offensive aspect.

47 minutes ago, cartman said:

Kinda like crime in general... it's not that it isn't outlawed already.

Crime is addressed by a set of laws. This isn't that.

47 minutes ago, cartman said:

. It is subjective that Simpsons should change based on what a few people think about it the fact that they had some bad experience doesn't change that.

It's more than a few people. As I said, those few people wouldn't have power if the majority of society didn't also back them.

The bad experiences added up for minorities, and now the majority of society says that these stereotypes are not part of comedy anymore. We don't do pickianny or blackface anymore.

49 minutes ago, cartman said:

No the same doesn't apply to the Simpsons. There is no right saying that nothing can offend you - others have artistic freedom and freedom of speech trumping your rights not to get offended.

It's not that you can't not be offended, it's that you're allowed to speak up when you are offended.

Again, you keep missing that no higher power came down on the Simpsons.

A few voiced a complaint.

The Simpsons creators looked at the cultural landscape and decided that Apu's voice had no place in it, so they changed the voice.

That is all that happened.

Nothing more.

You're acting like this small cabal decides everything.

There is no cabal.

51 minutes ago, cartman said:

Violence and profanity are absolutely cultural aspects. They touch on how people act and behave = culture.

But that's not a cultural identity. There is no racial group that identifies as "violent" or "profane."

52 minutes ago, cartman said:

So to those who oppose violence and profanity being shown you say "go watch something else, Hallmark Channel" instead of their sentiments getting to alter entertainment but to the Indians who got offended you change the tune and agree that they should be catered to. Moralism turned on itself isn't so fun anymore.

You're again missing the difference. Those opposed to violence or profanity won't get anything from the Simpsons at all.

They want to shut the Simpsons down.

The Indians who watch the Simpsons get a lot out of it, but they just asked for the offensive stereotype to be changed.

They asked for one thing.

They're not asking for Apu to be killed off.

The people who object to violence or profanity have tons of options.

Indians who watch things just want to see their culture portrayed correctly.

If you can't see the difference in that, I don't know what to tell you.

55 minutes ago, cartman said:

When did i say Indians want to censor everything?

You said they want everything to revolve around them.

They wanted one change.

55 minutes ago, cartman said:

But everyone else who wants to alter something, they can champion their own cause too and then everything would be censored.

No it wouldn't. Not everything is an offensive stereotype. Those are what have no place in 2020.

56 minutes ago, cartman said:

It's your stance being extrapolated because like i said you can't just draw the line where you find it convenient ut that's exactly what you've done.

No, you're just applying the "slippery slope" fallacy. That's not what's happening.

Offensive stereotypes are no longer funny. That's an objective truth to the majority of society. They have no place in mainstream culture.

58 minutes ago, cartman said:

No, you can't look at it objectively when you're drawing subjective conclusions about wich cause should get catered to and wich shouldn't.

There's absolutely an objective truth. We've seen minorities be bashed for who they are, based on stereotypes.

We can easily see that some things should no longer be in culture, or that can be spoken out against, and the creators of that can then decide.

That's how it works.

59 minutes ago, cartman said:

You can't decide what's funny and if you want to claim that art causes harm,  you have to apply that across the board and object to violence, profanity, guns, drugs... whatever being shown.

Again, with all of those, there's a responsible way to depicting them, and a responsible way of depicting cultural aspects such as accents and aspects of race.

The way Apu was depicted was irresponsible.

And the creators took it upon themselves to change it.

1 hour ago, cartman said:

But you don't argue that in those cases you tell them to go watch Hallmark.

Because again, those people won't get anything watching the Simpsons. They wanted the Simpsons completely shut down.

They have plenty of options to watch that will align with their values.

Apu was watched by people of Indian descent, and they simply said they don't like one aspect. Everything else they seemed fine with.

So the creators responded.

Everyone goes home happy.

Except you.

1 hour ago, cartman said:

Yes it was the conscious decision of the creators to not have whites voice minorities but i'm not talking about the choice now but what the actual content of the stance is and that is racism towards whites.

So you'd rather have the more damaging racism by continuing to depict offensive stereotypes? That's really your stance?

Whites have all the options. They have all the choices. Minorities have scraped by for centuries.

1 hour ago, cartman said:

They have more roles than ppl of color? So that makes it ok then?

Minorities often don't have any choice. They don't get roles like this very often.

Again, all the white actors are still working on the show and are still voicing most of the characters.

Azaria is still doing Moe, and whoever else.

They're just letting more people in.

1 hour ago, cartman said:

"You have it good already, just take it when you're getting misstreated and don't complain".

How are they getting mistreated. They're still working! They still have careers!

You're falling into the same old trap of "Well, if we let minorities have opportunities, then white people will be enslaved!"

You know that's not going to happen.

The playing field is leveling. It's not regressing as you're trying so desperately to make it seem like.

We're finally sorting things out in this world.

The only people who don't like it are the people who were in charge that have to play more fairly now.

We're not going to see white people become a minority.

1 hour ago, cartman said:

And white voice actors are individuals too by the way "they" don't have everything just because someone else who is white might have more roles.

They have far more opportunities than minority actors. You see it every day.

Credits list white person after white person, often playing roles that people of color have no chance at playing, even if the person of color is the same as the character.

It's not based on merit, as there are plenty of great actors of all races.

It's a systemic discrimination that is in place and has been for decades.

All that is happening is that systemic discrimination is being dismantled.

There'll still be roles for white people. Always.

We're just letting some people of color have a fair shot.

[OptOut | 8,889]

1 minute ago, Tulpa said:

Wasted air.

Just ignore him dude, cripes.

[Tulpa | 3,516]

2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Just ignore him dude, cripes.

I know, I know.

I just can't help myself. I hate letting ignorance reign.

I offered to agree to disagree, but he won't take it.

At any rate, I think everyone knows our stances and who agrees with whom.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Tulpa

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I know, I know.

I just can't help myself.

I feel you. But I'll be honest I stopped reading any Apu posts like 15 pages age when you pwned him for like the 3rd time.

Anyway, shoes eh? Who wears shoes anymore? I haven't worn shoes since like March. Thanks Coronavirus!

Now it's just flip flops for me:

[Tulpa | 3,516]

Just now, CodysGameRoom said:

I feel you. But I'll be honest I stopped reading any Apu posts like 15 pages age when you pwned him for like the 3rd time.

Fair enough. I've made my point.

I'm sure he'll spew something else out, but if it's not fun for anyone else, I'll retire it.

[Link | 2,714]

5 minutes ago, Rhino said:

What's wrong with empathizing with victims during a tragedy?

Nothing, but we have to do more than that. And it’s always halted by talk of “it’s too soon” “you’re being emotional” “don’t politicize this tragedy”

7 minutes ago, Rhino said:

Let me ask you this, you've been in a car accident, your kid has been taken to the nearest hospital, and they're being operated on by a doctor who was last in his class and only hired to check a diversity box. Your kid dies. Should this type of hiring practice continue in the future because a diverse workforce is more important than hiring the best?

A doctor who is a minority, happens to be incompetent, yet gets hired at a hospital solely to fulfill diversity, and fails to save a life that a straight white christian male doctor who would have been hired instead if that policy were not in place would have done a better job? In the operating room with a team of medical staff attending. 

Would this doctor happen to be made of straw?

42 minutes ago, Rhino said:

The right does it too, like with guns.

Here I agree with you again. And certainly, “the left” can at times also hit people over the head with ideology. That doesn’t discount the difference in approach or effects.

[Tulpa | 3,516]

1 minute ago, Link said:

A doctor who is a minority, happens to be incompetent, yet gets hired at a hospital solely to fulfill diversity, and fails to save a life that a straight white christian male doctor who would have been hired instead if that policy were not in place would have done a better job? In the operating room with a team of medical staff attending. 

Would this doctor happen to be made of straw?

 

Yeah, there's a certain level of competence that must be reached for many if not most professions. Regents of the Univ. of Cal. v. Bakke has stated that racial quotas aren't allowed, but race can be one of many factors in deciding things like medical school admissions. The person who gets in still has to go through the rigors of the profession.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

7 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Fair enough. I've made my point.

I'm sure he'll spew something else out, but if it's not fun for anyone else, I'll retire it.

It's fun when you repeatedly systematically dismantle every point he tries to make, but it's not fun he basically responds with the same thing worded a different way over and over and over again. lol

[Tulpa | 3,516]

Yeah, it's going in circles.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

@Tulpa I want to hear more

[Link | 2,714]

48 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

You totally are ignoring the point with this one. Huge difference between a guy like Jeremy Lin, and a random Taiwanense guy I pull out from the rice fields somewhere. Just to clue you in on the matter:

It's quite common for better off Taiwanense to move their families, or to at least send their children abroad  for learning. Yet as I mentioned earlier, they all hold Taiwanense passports, and the fortunate / better off also hold foreign passports.

This point is then a large issue in Taiwan society, with the Anerican-Born Chinese for example feeling at a higher class, as if they are better than the other locals, in the situation they moved back to the "homeland" to study, work, live, etc.

The bloke that made the documentary and the other blokes that were offended were all Indian-Americans, not actual Americans. I'd personally like to see what actual Indians felt. As clearly it looks they just got offended because they personally want to distance themselves from the other culture, which in reality bis normal, if you look at essentially how everyone reacts in said situation.

Then... go ask an actual Indian? You with your global social life surely have more access to them than, Tulpa or I do.

Meanwhile, we are discussing Indian-Americans’ reaction to an Indian-American character on an American show. 

[fcgamer | 4,729]

1 minute ago, Link said:

Then... go ask an actual Indian? You with your global social life surely have more access to them than, Tulpa or I do.

Meanwhile, we are discussing Indian-Americans’ reaction to an Indian-American character on an American show. 

Actually we aren't...even the bloke that made the documentary doesn't acknowledge it, he was more offended than his parents iirc, and Apu is modelled after an Indian immigrating to America, not an Indian-American.

So why are we getting offended about this again, oh yeah, just for the sake of it all.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

Also if you want to get technical: at what age did Apu move to the USA? That would certainly influence how his accent ultimately was, then again accent in and of itself isn't racist or ethnic, despite what many here believe, it depends on where you grew up and who you were around.

[Link | 2,714]

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Apu is modelled after an Indian immigrating to America, not an Indian-American.

What’s the difference? 

 

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Also if you want to get technical: at what age did Apu move to the USA? That would certainly influence how his accent ultimately was, then again accent in and of itself isn't racist or ethnic, despite what many here believe, it depends on where you grew up and who you were around.

It’s very exaggerated.

If I as a white actor get a role of “Taiwanese (insert profession here)” on an American show, and pepper my dialogue with a lot of “ching chong ding dong” and “me so solly” you think that’s all right? You think it makes a difference, here, that somebody’s grandparents in Taiwan don’t mind it? 

[avatar! | 1,819]

 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

13 hours ago, Estil said:

No not really you can support your choice of ~200 countries in the world today.  

I think you are likely mistaken.  Support for any country is effectively going to be proxy-support for one or the other in some fashion.

Both USA and China would have to have their respective influences on world affairs shrink CONSIDERABLY for that not to be the case.

[fcgamer | 4,729]

17 minutes ago, Link said:

What’s the difference? 

 

It’s very exaggerated.

If I as a white actor get a role of “Taiwanese (insert profession here)” on an American show, and pepper my dialogue with a lot of “ching chong ding dong” and “me so solly” you think that’s all right? You think it makes a difference, here, that somebody’s grandparents in Taiwan don’t mind it? 

There's a huge difference, do some research and then come back to me. Huuuuuuuge difference.

Edit: I'm heading to bed, that gives you a solid eight or ten hours to do some research and start to understand the differences between those from the country, and first / second / third generation folks of said ethnicity. Fun fact, They experience hardships because they are caught between their parent's native culture and the new culture, home fry, to say that people from the country and those that are born and raised in the country are the same is insulting at best, and undermines the real issues that both parties experience. Do some research and come back to us. I know I have.

Edited July 5, 2020 by fcgamer

[Estil | 1,265]

34 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I think you are likely mistaken.  Support for any country is effectively going to be proxy-support for one or the other in some fashion.

Both USA and China would have to have their respective influences on world affairs shrink CONSIDERABLY for that not to be the case.

Unless you're Switzerland.  

[Doctornick | 419]

2 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Nike shoes and Nike cleats.  Come at me.

I feel bad for you man, so much hate (Nike) in your life.  We will all send you some new balance shoes so you can live life to the fullest.  You will literally walk on clouds and fight crime with just your presence once you put on a pair of them.  I traded my Stadium Events for two pairs of New Balance shoes from this 50 year old alpha male at the end of my development.  Fool doesn't even realize how badly I ripped him off.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,105]

2 minutes ago, Doctornick said:

I feel bad for you man, so much hate (Nike) in your life.  We will all send you some new balance shoes so you can live life to the fullest.  You will literally walk on clouds and fight crime with just your presence once you put on a pair of them.  I traded my Stadium Events for two pairs of New Balance shoes from this 50 year old alpha male at the end of my development.  Fool doesn't even realize how badly I ripped him off.

I'd rather have two pairs of shoes than a copy of Stadium Events and I used to own one.