AVS and NT versus other clone machines

[Lincoln | 230]

IIRC I changed the pixel ratio to better match what my NES was showing on screen. I used the matchup screen from punch out and some post it notes to mark the outer portrait corners, then switched to the avs and tweaked until it was close. 

[Tulpa | 3,492]

I can't remember all the adjustments I did, but I did switch palettes to the unsaturated V6.

[DorkOverlord | 686]

For those of you who own an Analogue Mega SG...how do you like it? What are the pros and cons?. I've got two real Genesises (Genesi?) with a CRT in my game room, but I'd like to be able to play on my living room TV for when I have larger gatherings. The game room is kind of tight when more than 4 people are in there. 

[Deadeye | 1,596]

3 minutes ago, DorkOverlord said:

For those of you who own an Analogue Mega SG...how do you like it? What are the pros and cons?. I've got two real Genesises (Genesi?) with a CRT in my game room, but I'd like to be able to play on my living room TV for when I have larger gatherings. The game room is kind of tight when more than 4 people are in there. 

I have a Mega SG.  I never had a Genesis growing up, so take this as you wish.

I don't have any real cons besides no analog hookups, which now with the Analogue DAC can be remedied.  

As far as pros: HDMI output, SD card side loading, endless video and audio adjustments, and the materials are good quality.  

In your case, already having two Genesises, the biggest plus is HDMI output.  My understanding is that the Genesis can not be modded for HDMI currently or in the future (read about why, but too technical for me to even pretend to give a summary here).  The only way for a great quality digital signal would be internal mods to correct jailbars, a HD Retrovision cable, and a scaler (like ossc or retrotink).  All in, I think you would be close to over the cost of a Mega SG, unless you already have this equipment.

My vote is to buy it and the other pros are cherries on top.

[Californication | 1,477]

44 minutes ago, DorkOverlord said:

For those of you who own an Analogue Mega SG...how do you like it? What are the pros and cons?. I've got two real Genesises (Genesi?) with a CRT in my game room, but I'd like to be able to play on my living room TV for when I have larger gatherings. The game room is kind of tight when more than 4 people are in there. 

My opinion is similar to Deadeye. Furthermore, I liked the SG so much, I just got a Supet NT. The convenience of being able to play an original cart on a modern tv and have no loss in quality out of the box is really a great value. 

Also, I personally think the Mega SG picture and sound put Genesis games on a different level than before. The Super Nintendo, I don't notice much of a difference between the original console and the analogue. I think Sega games look and sound much better.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

Con of Mega Sg: It looks really stupid with a Sega CD. Kidding though, my experience with the Mega Sg and Super Nt have been great, although I’m less familiar with picky nuance type stuff than NES.

[stillplayingnes | 1]

I had a Mega SG and sold it for pretty much what I paid for it.  

The money I did loose tho I chalk up to piece of mind and knowledge in knowing that I'm totally satisfied with an original Genesis plugged into HD Retrovision cables, into a retrotink, and into the HD TV we have in our TV room.   I also can grab a CRT from the basement if I need to get that original fix.

This then led me to actually selling my early Retro AVS I bought when they first released.  

I'm finding the retrotink2x to be the piece of equipment that allows me to continue to play my old consoles on HDTVs.  

 

 

[Tanooki | 4,933]

I don't think I've ever looked into one of those before.  Are you like saying if I wanted to drop a $100 I could buy one of those, take my one remaining non HDMI system I have right now (PC Engine Duo) jam the RCA cable into the side port, and pop an HDMI cable into the side of that thing and I get pure clean happy support with no loss and no lag other than what the TV could introduce itself?  I consider that a pretty fair deal I may just look into.

That said I wouldn't do what you did, I like my Super NT plenty, the GC2HDMI, the N64 is already UltraHDMI'd as is my top loader NES with its hi def kit too.  All my stuff is HDMI now outside of that and the PSOne+LCD combo on my desk, which seemingly could use that Retrotink thing too.  (Mind you I still have a SNES and NES set complete packed away in their boxes still, but I like the perks those FPGAs introduced.)

[stillplayingnes | 1]

15 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I don't think I've ever looked into one of those before.  Are you like saying if I wanted to drop a $100 I could buy one of those, take my one remaining non HDMI system I have right now (PC Engine Duo) jam the RCA cable into the side port, and pop an HDMI cable into the side of that thing and I get pure clean happy support with no loss and no lag other than what the TV could introduce itself?  I consider that a pretty fair deal I may just look into.

That said I wouldn't do what you did, I like my Super NT plenty, the GC2HDMI, the N64 is already UltraHDMI'd as is my top loader NES with its hi def kit too.  All my stuff is HDMI now outside of that and the PSOne+LCD combo on my desk, which seemingly could use that Retrotink thing too.  (Mind you I still have a SNES and NES set complete packed away in their boxes still, but I like the perks those FPGAs introduced.)

Regarding the retrotink:

I'm not a technical guy.  Do some research on the retrotink yourself to get total answers to your questions.  There are tons of youtube reviews and interviews(some with the creator of the thing who seems like a brilliant guy).  I do know this.  The retrotink adds no lag to your TV.

Everything else and random thoughts:

My retro gaming is Genesis and NES with the once a year or two SNES.  I found a sweet spot where I'm happy and I don't need those FPGA consoles .  They are not the real deal IMO and I was never totally happy with them.  Like you I also have a NES complete and packed away(dead mint).  I have various iterations of the Genesis packed away too.  I don't really care much for the SNES but there's one somewhere in the house.   I played the AVS for a good year and when I pulled out my NES it was like "ahhh that's it, that's what I miss!"  

I make due with what I can with the HDMI TVs in the house but I do have a CRT stored away.  I wish it was slightly smaller as to it's a hassle to move around.

Finding a sweet spot has been rough.  in the early 2000s I was a big time collector/hunter but a few years ago I sold most of my carts.  Now I find myself purchasing some back.  It's a strange hobby for me.

 

[Tanooki | 4,933]

I've done the yo-yo diet on games, but I finally slammed the door like 99% shut on that one buying up flash kits to make me cheap out buying carts unless they're stupid cheap and easy to get, or in all honesty flip worthy so I can afford something I no longer can in life due to unrelated crap out of my control.

I'm fine with the FPGA stuff, it works, at least I think so, had a weird moment earlier with Sypha in the stage after the ship on CV3 (JP ver) where the horizontal of that red stage worked but vertical the screen went all glitch out, walked the edge off and it crashed.  NOt sure if that's a flash kit bug as N8 just got updated, bad rom(unlikely), or the FPGA.  That never happened before, and if that were an issue I think that retrotink would fix that using the old real system once more.  I just can't afford $100/ea for my systems, but for an easy swap in/out of a PCE or a PS1 neither on that setup, it would be a nice choice.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

On 12/28/2019 at 9:56 PM, Tanooki said:

I don't think I've ever looked into one of those before.  Are you like saying if I wanted to drop a $100 I could buy one of those, take my one remaining non HDMI system I have right now (PC Engine Duo) jam the RCA cable into the side port, and pop an HDMI cable into the side of that thing and I get pure clean happy support with no loss and no lag other than what the TV could introduce itself?  I consider that a pretty fair deal I may just look into.

You would probably get less input lag with a retroTINK than putting composite directly into your TV. I only have so many TVs with which to test, but putting an NES through my Framemeister (which adds 22ms latency on its own!) is still 1-2 frames faster than hooking an NES up directly to my LCD TVs, which I measured against a CRT with a splitter cable. I'm not an expert on what causes lag, but the TV has whatever inherent processing input lag, but then additional deinterlacing lag as it tries to deinterlace a 240p signal. The retroTINK will send an HD signal to the TV, bypassing the deinterlacing lag, and adding no lag of its own.

[Tanooki | 4,933]

That bypass part fits.  Basically the TVs all have their inherent level of lag depending on the parts included within and what you're feeding it as a combination of trouble.  That can be mitigated manually or in some cases as much as possible with the 'game mode' on a TV.  Anything that cleans up, alters, or otherwise converts or does something to your image adds processing time (display lag, which means input lag on what we see vs where it is.)  I did much research on it years back when my reliable old LCD failed that was very low, so I read up entirely so I wouldn't end up cooked on a bad panel.  What I'm getting here is that your favorite device bypasses the introduced from the outside end of the display lag variable so it's just up to how the TV internally will handle the signal spit out to it in digital format by the console.  It will be entirely up to the lowest common possible display lag the TV can give and that's good.

[peg | 370]

Personally I think clone systems are worthless.  If you can't play with original hardware on a CRT just fucking emulate and call it a day.  Just run a fucking laptop with hdmi out if you want to play on a flatscreen, or buy one of those mini consoles and hack it.  It's fucking stupid to pay for a "high end" clone, it's always going to be worse than the real thing, and low-res games look like fucking shit on a HDTV, I don't care what filters or scanline emulation it uses, it still looks like fucking crap.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

I've honestly had no issues with the AVS, everything has looked and played great right out of the box for me.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

There's the old pegboy we know and love.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

13 hours ago, peg said:

Personally I think clone systems are worthless.  If you can't play with original hardware on a CRT just fucking emulate and call it a day.  Just run a fucking laptop with hdmi out if you want to play on a flatscreen, or buy one of those mini consoles and hack it.  It's fucking stupid to pay for a "high end" clone, it's always going to be worse than the real thing, and low-res games look like fucking shit on a HDTV, I don't care what filters or scanline emulation it uses, it still looks like fucking crap.

I have an Nt and I actually love the way old sprite-based games display on modern HDTVs. Seeing how every pixel was colored gives you a real appreciation for the artistry of the developers. And games play perfectly on the Nt without the lag introduced by software emulation like you would get on a laptop with HDMI output.

Different strokes for different folks.

Edited December 31, 2019 by DoctorEncore

[MachineCode | 159]

5 hours ago, Tulpa said:

There's the old pegboy we know and love.

Hey now, that sentence can mean something entirely different on certain websites 

[Tanooki | 4,933]

Well perhaps that unmarked white van with no plates never got out of the impound lot.

 

Either way he's wrong.  I'm on the same page, crystal clear visuals seeing every detail every splash of color by the pixel is fantastic.  And really each TV is onto its own, even within their own maker and size class depending on the guts.  Some have a garbage tv that smears, blurs, display lags, and otherwise hoses up old stuff on the new.  That's why you don't act like a moron, you research and find out how they behave using various sites online then you can get one that gives you the clarity and excellence with the only loss still being light gun titles.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

Well perhaps that unmarked white van with no plates never got out of the impound lot.

 

Either way he's wrong.  I'm on the same page, crystal clear visuals seeing every detail every splash of color by the pixel is fantastic.  And really each TV is onto its own, even within their own maker and size class depending on the guts.  Some have a garbage tv that smears, blurs, display lags, and otherwise hoses up old stuff on the new.  That's why you don't act like a moron, you research and find out how they behave using various sites online then you can get one that gives you the clarity and excellence with the only loss still being light gun titles.

If someone told me as a 7 year old kid that in the future I could play 700+ NES games on a single cartridge on a system and TV with a pixel perfect, crystal clear image I would have thought they were crazy. The fact that it's an option today is still amazing to me.

[Tanooki | 4,933]

It gets me too and I've been spoiled by the emulators doing amazing stuff on PC high quality CRT to flat panels since 1995.  To be able to finally do this at home without linking a PC to a TV using good original carts and hardware and getting that clarity is amazing.

[Andromeda Stardust | 9]

 

On 12/9/2019 at 2:04 PM, Tulpa said:

You can probably email RetroUSB and make sure the firmware is up to date before they ship.

Updating it is pretty foolproof. You just need a computer, the firmware, the scoreboard software, and the AVS and its USB cord. Takes five minutes, if that. I think you can run the scoreboard software off a USB stick, so you don't have to install it on someone else's computer. 

Edit: they put all the links here now.

https://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=78&osCsid=bd2217769003abaafcad2ac6c24d736e

I wanted to ask this. Any chance the scoreboard functionality could be resurrected since the NintendoAge server is now gone? I know it never got utilized much but could be fun to mess around and post high scores in games.

After my laptop bit the dust a couple years ago, I was unable to connect the AVS to the scoreboard server and actually submit scores since the desktop and gaming rig were in different rooms.

[wongojack | 214]

On 12/9/2019 at 6:01 PM, skinnygrinny said:

@Bearcat-Doug The avs does not produce any lag but your tv can. 
 

It’s noticeable enough for me that I only use my avs for casual use. 
 

nes/crt for weekly contest.
 

When we played excitebike I had family in town and tried to use the avs to share what I was doing. It was pretty noticeable. 
I reckon if you get a really nice tv or gaming monitor it would eliminate any lag. 

 

On 12/9/2019 at 8:57 PM, Jono1874 said:

I did a lag test using the 240p Test Suite on both the AVS and the NES Mini. The AVS is comparable to my front loader. The NES mini on the otherhand averaged 4 frames of lag. It's basically unplayable unless you're playing RPGs.

I'm extremely picky with NES games. I refuse to play in emulators, and generally refuse to use clone consoles EXCEPT the AVS because it is so ridiculously accurate. I got mine for christmas the year it came out and was won over with it pretty quickly. I've never used an Analogue NT but from what I hear it's at least as good as the AVS. Too bad they don't make them anymore.

I'd go so far as to say that the AVS is a worthy successor to the original hardware, unlike the NES Mini, which is dogshit in comparison. Not only is it laggy, but sound emulation is incorrect and in some cases worse than what you'll find with your average NOAC clone. It's a shame that Nintendo would trash the NES' legacy with such an insultingly bad product.

Digging up this discussion about the delay on the AVS.  My AVS works fine, but i have noticed a few things and couldn't really find much organized feedback about it online.  A couple things I've noticed that gave me questions were that Road Blasters 2 didn't seem to display correctly.  I found reference to this same thing happening on older emulators, but no other comments about it on the AVS.  I was playing from the PowerPak.

Another thing that I've noticed is that when playing Mike Tyson's Punch Out, there are definitely delays.  I've tried the AVS on 3 different TVs.  One of those is a native 720p and the others have dedicated "Game" modes.  All of them eat some of my inputs.  Switch back to original deck and CRT - no problems.  I am on latest firmware.  This is strange because I found some people posting on GameFAQs that said the AVS was perfect for MTPO.

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

25 minutes ago, wongojack said:

 

Another thing that I've noticed is that when playing Mike Tyson's Punch Out, there are definitely delays.  I've tried the AVS on 3 different TVs.  One of those is a native 720p and the others have dedicated "Game" modes.  All of them eat some of my inputs.  Switch back to original deck and CRT - no problems.  I am on latest firmware.  This is strange because I found some people posting on GameFAQs that said the AVS was perfect for MTPO.

I got into a heated discussion once with a fella back on Nintendoage about the lag when using the avs, specifically noticeable playing MTPO.

I was told the avs produces no input lag, the lag is produced by the television set. 
 

I was upset that when I bought the avs this was not information that was specifically mentioned. I believe there is a chart provided by the creator that provides “stats” but nothing in the description of the item.

[Link | 2,709]

5 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

I was upset that when I bought the avs this was not information that was specifically mentioned.

Isn't it a known issue with any widescreen TV, though? You can't play Duck Hunt, original console or clone. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,198]

13 minutes ago, Link said:

Isn't it a known issue with any widescreen TV, though? You can't play Duck Hunt, original console or clone. 

I’m old and still play on crt. My thought was “oh this new technology will allow me to play on the new TV’s”. 
duck hunt doesn’t work because lights though? And most people still don’t know that. 
 

“hey btw your gonna need to invest in a high performance gaming monitor if you want to get passed soda popinski without altering your gameplay to compensate for lag”

Id be willing to bet very few people understood that going into the purchase.

Edited December 21, 2023 by skinnygrinny