AVS and NT versus other clone machines

[Tanooki | 4,932]

1 hour ago, Jono1874 said:

I'm extremely picky with NES games. I refuse to play in emulators, and generally refuse to use clone consoles EXCEPT the AVS because it is so ridiculously accurate. I got mine for christmas the year it came out and was won over with it pretty quickly. I've never used an Analogue NT but from what I hear it's at least as good as the AVS. Too bad they don't make them anymore.

I'd go so far as to say that the AVS is a worthy successor to the original hardware, unlike the NES Mini, which is dogshit in comparison. Not only is it laggy, but sound emulation is incorrect and in some cases worse than what you'll find with your average NOAC clone. It's a shame that Nintendo would trash the NES' legacy with such an insultingly bad product.

Technically, they do.  Kevin 'kevtris' Horton is the one that designed the core the Analogue unicorn horn level to buy device uses, yet he also did the core for the HiDef NES Kit that I've got installed in my top loader.  It can match perhaps exceed the AVS, so it's just as equal as a successor to the original hardware, WHILE using original hardware.   Basically the installation amounts to popping out your CPU and PPU, installing a mount which a ribbon cable flies away from, and then re-mounting those old chips on top.  The ribbons lead to a small board that is a comfy fit for that small plastic well in the bottom molding of the top loader where you just need to carve a tiny HDMI port out the back and you're set.  The FPGA there is solid.

[Jono1874 | 144]

21 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Technically, they do.  Kevin 'kevtris' Horton is the one that designed the core the Analogue unicorn horn level to buy device uses, yet he also did the core for the HiDef NES Kit that I've got installed in my top loader.  It can match perhaps exceed the AVS, so it's just as equal as a successor to the original hardware, WHILE using original hardware.   Basically the installation amounts to popping out your CPU and PPU, installing a mount which a ribbon cable flies away from, and then re-mounting those old chips on top.  The ribbons lead to a small board that is a comfy fit for that small plastic well in the bottom molding of the top loader where you just need to carve a tiny HDMI port out the back and you're set.  The FPGA there is solid.

As far as I know, the Hidef NES outputs at 1080p. So yeah, it would definitely be better. That is if interpolation is available.

I've been meaning to mod one of my consoles with it, but dat price.

I can definitely understand the utility in keeping the AVS at 720p but god help us all when TVs stop outputting at that resolution. At least the Hi def kit is slightly more futureproof.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

1 hour ago, Jono1874 said:

As far as I know, the Hidef NES outputs at 1080p. So yeah, it would definitely be better. That is if interpolation is available.

Interpolation was actually patched out of Hi-Def NES  Not enough room in the FPGA after fixing other things.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

9 hours ago, Jono1874 said:

 

I can definitely understand the utility in keeping the AVS at 720p but god help us all when TVs stop outputting at that resolution. At least the Hi def kit is slightly more futureproof.

I don't know why they wouldn't. A 1080p TV can scale a 720p signal. It's not integer scaling, granted, but you would have to look pretty close to see the difference. A 4k TV, which seems to be the norm now, scales both resolutions with integers (720 x 3 = 2160, 1080 x 2 = 2160.) 8k TVs would also scale with integers.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Tulpa

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

On 12/9/2019 at 11:41 PM, Jono1874 said:

As far as I know, the Hidef NES outputs at 1080p. So yeah, it would definitely be better. That is if interpolation is available.

I've been meaning to mod one of my consoles with it, but dat price.

I can definitely understand the utility in keeping the AVS at 720p but god help us all when TVs stop outputting at that resolution. At least the Hi def kit is slightly more futureproof.

I hope I don't have to buy a spare TV to keep using the AVS I just ordered. The $99 Sharp TV I got on sale at Best Buy only goes up to 720p, but since I got it as a gaming TV for my NES, SNES and Genesis classic consoles, I figured it would be good enough. It has an AV input which was a surprise for a new TV that my NES is currently plugged into, but I've noticed motion blur on a few games that gets kind of annoying. Hopefully the AVS doesn't have that issue or at least some option to fix it.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

2 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I hope I don't have to buy a spare TV to keep using the AVS I just ordered. The $99 Sharp TV I got on sale at Best Buy only goes up to 720p, but since I got it as a gaming TV for my NES, SNES and Genesis classic consoles, I figured it would be good enough.

HDMI input? It'll work.

[G-type | 2,479]

wouldn't it be possible for the NOAC manufacturer to correct some of those emulation problems and release an improved chip?

 

[T-Pac | 7,533]

3 hours ago, G-type said:

wouldn't it be possible for the NOAC manufacturer to correct some of those emulation problems and release an improved chip?

 

Nintendo-On-A-Chip clones have actually been slowly making compatibility improvements over the years. Current clones can often handle games with more sophisticated mappers and chips compared to earlier models. I don't have any of the common 'incompatible' games to test on my NES clone (like Castlevania III or something), but I'm able to run Super FX games on my SNES clone, which was previously unheard of (if I remember correctly). Plus, I think the sound emulation has improved over time as well.

-CasualCart

[Lincoln | 230]

The noac could be redesigned to fix the various issues but Chinese pirates aren't selling on quality. They're all using the same 20 year old design because it's available and good enough.

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

3 hours ago, G-type said:

wouldn't it be possible for the NOAC manufacturer to correct some of those emulation problems and release an improved chip?

 

ASIC development is expensive (AFAIK, $100,000s?). Kevtris can push an update to his FPGA NES to fix something minor in a day for essentially free, but non-updatable ASIC chips are only profitable if you can sell a ton of them. Since millions of NOACs have sold forever, they're good enough for the Intellivision and arcade joystick plug and play crap they get put into, and the retro enthusiast market is very niche by comparison, I don't think it's worth it.

Not sure if anything changed in the modern era, maybe NOACs are better now, but that was my understanding of why a Retron HD or Gamerztek piece of crap and Castlevania III music doesn't work. They still use the existing, plentiful, buggy NOACs that have been around since the 90s because they're good enough for that market.

Someone who knows actually knows anything about modifying semiconductor manufacturing processes can correct me if I'm wrong, because this was just my understanding.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

Yeah, the big advantage to FPGA is you can update with firmware. Good luck updating a Retro-Bit clone without soldering in a new processor.

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Well some pirates seem to care.  I'm not sure what year the FC Mobile 88 handheld came out, but that one can run a surprising amount of mappers and seems to just balk at the higher Konami VRCs(6+) and some of the Namco ones too, but most of what I've tossed at it runs just fine and without weird audio and off color stuff either which shocked me.  The only nicer clone I've hit is the newest S/SFC revision for the Supaboy as that can handle SD2SNES and all the special chips it can do, plus the weird one off or so titles that do some odd graphics trick the other clones fail at too.  It's always nice when at least someone tries to advance those cheaper alternatives to get them basically right.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

15 hours ago, Tulpa said:

HDMI input? It'll work.

I know the AVS will work with my current TV, but I wonder how long it will be before HDMI gets replaced by some new connection or TVs don't support 720p resolution anymore, which was mentioned earlier. I was honestly surprised that my new TV still had an AV input and I could hook my NES right up. 

[Lincoln | 230]

HDMI will be around a long time. The standards makers will just upgrade HDMI protocols incrementally. It'll always be backwards compatible.

TV's in 2019 support resolutions from the 1940s. 720p support isn't getting dropped in your lifetime. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

18 minutes ago, Lincoln said:

HDMI will be around a long time. The standards makers will just upgrade HDMI protocols incrementally. It'll always be backwards compatible.

TV's in 2019 support resolutions from the 1940s. 720p support isn't getting dropped in your lifetime. 

I saw the comment awhile back about 720p not being supported in the future which was a concern since what sealed the deal for me getting an AVS was being able to play on a brand new console that will probably be compatible longer than I'll have to worry about it.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

17 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

I saw the comment awhile back about 720p not being supported in the future which was a concern since what sealed the deal for me getting an AVS was being able to play on a brand new console that will probably be compatible longer than I'll have to worry about it.

720p as the highest resolution a TV will have won't be supported, just like 240p is no longer supported (in terms of displaying those exact resolutions without scaling), but the screens will upscale to whatever resolution they currently have, just like they always have done.

A 1080p TV will upscale a 720p signal to its 1080p resolution, as will a 2160p 4K TV will do. The 2160p may be slightly better, as 720p is an integer divisor (2160 / 720 = 3, an integer), but most people probably won't notice anything if going from 720p to 1080p. I had a DVD player that would upscale from 480i (DVD's resolution) to 720p, but used it with a 1080p set (the TV did the scaling from 720p to 1080p at that point.). You had to really get your nose to the screen to notice anything.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tulpa

[Tanooki | 4,932]

I think when it comes to these ridiculous resolutions we see now they're entirely pointless from a viewing standpoint until the diagonal on that screen is quite large enough to notice.  I'm not using anything over 32-33" in my space here, though the main TV is in the mid 40s and they all do 1080p.  I know from seeing them at stores or others places, you need like maybe a 50" to see some value in 4K and up from there.  I imagine there will be 1080p TVs for decades to come if you're buying in the smaller tier size of set unless there's some patently obvious element here I'm missing.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

 I imagine there will be 1080p TVs for decades to come if you're buying in the smaller tier size of set unless there's some patently obvious element here I'm missing.

Pretty much how it goes. 720p is available as the low end models (~$100), and I suspect that 1080p will move into that role, then 4Ks and so on. By then, holodecks should be a reality.

[Nintendo Historian | 43]

On 12/9/2019 at 12:49 PM, Bearcat-Doug said:

I've been kicking around the idea of getting an AVS, but I was wondering if it has compatibility issues with the Everdrive since RetroUSB sells the PowerPak. I watched a YouTube video where the reviewer had an issue, but apparently he had a first run AVS and the Everdrive worked after he updated the firmware on the console and the OS on the Everdrive.

I have an AVS ,and thus far I am happy with it ..Although I still prefer the Analogue NT mini ,I had 2 at one time .I sold both unfortunately.I will eventually invest in getting another one off eBay ..

Edited December 13, 2019 by NES CONNOISSEUR

[Tanooki | 4,932]

It's a shame they refuse to revisit that device and give it the plastic glory the SNES and now the Gen got as well.  The NES really could use that as it almost just seems like a stupidly ignored easy avenue to make a buck given the stupid prices the systems get online as the demand is there.  That handheld they have coming up seems like a polymega future waste of modular cash that can't even do all it promises out of the box as is, and doing so raises the price higher than the consoles which sucks.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

9 hours ago, NES CONNOISSEUR said:

I have an AVS ,and thus far I am happy with it ..Although I still prefer the Analogue NT mini ,I had 2 at one time .I sold both unfortunately.I will eventually invest in getting another one off eBay ..

My AVS should be coming in today's mail, so I'm pretty excited to see what it's like.

[Nintendo Historian | 43]

5 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

My AVS should be coming in today's mail, so I'm pretty excited to see what it's like.

The AVS is very well made ,and it is compatible with anything I have thrown at it thus far ..It does have a “death grip “,so be careful if you decide to insert a rare cart into the cartridge drive ..I do not like the Famicom drive however ,because the console lid has to remain partially opened when playing Famicom carts ..

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

5 minutes ago, NES CONNOISSEUR said:

The AVS is very well made ,and it is compatible with anything I have thrown at it thus far ..It does have a “death grip “,so be careful if you decide to insert a rare cart into the cartridge drive ..I do not like the Famicom drive however ,because the console lid has to remain partially opened when playing Famicom carts ..

That was the first thing I noticed. I thought I put the game in and then it wouldn't play. When I checked, it wasn't all the way in the connector and it really needed to be shoved in there to make a connection. Other than that, everything else seemed fine right out of the box.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Bearcat-Doug

[Tulpa | 3,491]

5 minutes ago, NES CONNOISSEUR said:

.I do not like the Famicom drive however ,because the console lid has to remain partially opened when playing Famicom carts ..

That was a design compromise. It's arranged that way so the FDS RAM adapter can fit. I just leave the door fully open.

 

9 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

That was the first thing I noticed. I thought I put the game in and then it wouldn't play. When I checked, it wasn't all the way in the connector and it really needed to be shoved in there to make a connection. 

Yeah, it's tight at first, which I think is a good thing. Just square it up and give it a firm push. It'll loosen a little over time.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

40 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

That was a design compromise. It's arranged that way so the FDS RAM adapter can fit. I just leave the door fully open.

 

Yeah, it's tight at first, which I think is a good thing. Just square it up and give it a firm push. It'll loosen a little over time.

I'm really happy with it. I didn't have to touch any of the settings, everything looked great right out of the box. I was also impressed with the design. It looks like a Nintendo made product.