AVS and NT versus other clone machines

[Link | 2,714]

1 hour ago, skinnygrinny said:

duck hunt doesn’t work because lights though?

Because there's a delay in the white square appearing

[Ankos | 443]

I've seen some people compare the new high-tech clone against NOAC machines, but looking at the original post I think fcgamer was more of asking about the old school clones before NOAC was a thing. They had to clone the Famicom a lot more closely early on since not as many shortcuts were known back in the day. I personally have not used any of the new high tech clones, so I don't know exactly how they stack up

I will say that some really old clones work well, but they can be old enough that they are kinda impractical to use. Depending on where you live and what kind of TV you have it might be easier to just use an original Famicom. If you're in a situation where they are practical, like if you live in a place where they are readily available, then they're not bad

Oh also, some of these clones use what is today called "Dendy mode". Here's a link if you are curious about that

Fun little aside: FPGA clones have been around for a surprisingly long time. All the way back in the 90s FPGA technology was being used by Bung for one of their copiers

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

7 hours ago, Link said:

Isn't it a known issue with any widescreen TV, though? You can't play Duck Hunt, original console or clone. 

It has nothing to do with the widescreen format, it's how the image is drawn on the screen. Duck Hunt relies on the specific timing of a cathode ray tube.

[Link | 2,714]

17 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

It has nothing to do with the widescreen format, it's how the image is drawn on the screen. Duck Hunt relies on the specific timing of a cathode ray tube.

It doesn't work on my widescreen CRT

[Tulpa | 3,514]

8 hours ago, skinnygrinny said:

I’m old and still play on crt. My thought was “oh this new technology will allow me to play on the new TV’s”. 
duck hunt doesn’t work because lights though? And most people still don’t know that. 
 

“hey btw your gonna need to invest in a high performance gaming monitor if you want to get passed soda popinski without altering your gameplay to compensate for lag”

Id be willing to bet very few people understood that going into the purchase.

It's not unique to the AVS, though. Any HDMI solution is going to see that. Analogue Nt, Raspberry Pi, computer hooked to TV through HDMI.

It's been a known factor it shouldn't have to be disclosed.

[Code Monkey | 2,011]

56 minutes ago, Link said:

It doesn't work on my widescreen CRT

RF coaxial or composite?

[Link | 2,714]

15 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

RF coaxial or composite?

Co-ax

[wongojack | 217]

18 hours ago, Tulpa said:

It's not unique to the AVS, though. Any HDMI solution is going to see that. Analogue Nt, Raspberry Pi, computer hooked to TV through HDMI.

It's been a known factor it shouldn't have to be disclosed.

It didn't need it to be disclosed.  I think the AVS is great, but I did think the AVS (because of its architecture) would be better than an emulator running on my computer hooked up to my TV.  In my experience it is about the same.  At least in terms of lag.

Edited December 22, 2023 by wongojack

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

2 minutes ago, wongojack said:

I didn't need it to be disclosed.  I think the AVS is great, but I did think the AVS (because of its architecture) would be better than an emulator running on my computer hooked up to my TV.  In my experience it is about the same.  At least in terms of lag.

Is that a monitor problem? Genuinely curious. 

[wongojack | 217]

4 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

Is that a monitor problem? Genuinely curious. 

I'm comparing to various TVs.  I did try connecting the AVS to a monitor with a Display Port connection, but it didn't work.  I've tried the AVS with 3 TVs in my house and they all pretty much give me the same laggy MTPO gameplay.  1 of those is native 720p and one of those is a high-end LG TV with a game optimizer setting.  I should futz with the settings more on that one to really check it out well.  It is the main TV in my house though, so AVS time on it is limited.

In comparison, I don't have the NT or any analog product, but I do have a Collectorvision Phoenix.  It is an FPGA Colecovision.  It also produces laggy gameplay on the 720p TV (and didn't work at all on one of my TVs).  There's actually one game I have ONLY played on the Phoenix.  I should plug it into a real Coleco and see if it is easier.

 

Ah well, I guess I needed this little lesson to teach me (again) that nothing beats the old systems connected to a CRT (when it comes to lag).  I still have a few of those too.

 

[cartman | 195]

20 hours ago, Tulpa said:

It's not unique to the AVS, though. Any HDMI solution is going to see that. Analogue Nt, Raspberry Pi, computer hooked to TV through HDMI.

It's been a known factor it shouldn't have to be disclosed.

What do you mean? Is it a known fact that Mike Tyson's Punchout has input lag on Analogue NT?

[Tulpa | 3,514]

1 hour ago, cartman said:

What do you mean? Is it a known fact that Mike Tyson's Punchout has input lag on Analogue NT?

Not on the Nt itself, on 90%+ of TVs that use the HDMI from an Analogue Nt.

HDTVs add lag. How much lag is added depends on the TV.

You have to live under a rock not to know this.

[cartman | 195]

47 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Not on the Nt itself, on 90%+ of TVs that use the HDMI from an Analogue Nt.

HDTVs add lag. How much lag is added depends on the TV.

You have to live under a rock not to know this.

I thought lag was when a console wasn't properly optimized for HDMI gameplay. Analogue's consoles are built for HDMI specifically. Also why would they advertise 1080p and zero lag then if it's due to the TV anyway?

[Tulpa | 3,514]

45 minutes ago, cartman said:

I thought lag was when a console wasn't properly optimized for HDMI gameplay. Analogue's consoles are built for HDMI specifically.

While some consoles can have lag (usually because they're converting a signal with cheap parts), TVs also have lag.

45 minutes ago, cartman said:

Also why would they advertise 1080p and zero lag then if it's due to the TV anyway?

Because that statement is true. There's no lag coming from the console.

Analogue can't tell what TV you're using and whether it is one with very low lag or very high lag. That depends on what TV you want to shell out for. You can buy a TV with so little lag it's not noticeable. They're usually fairly high end.

It's not up to Analogue (or anyone else making HDMI retro consoles) to tell you what TV you should buy. Plus, most games you won't notice. It's only the few that have frame level timing like Punch-Out that it becomes an issue.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Tulpa

[docile tapeworm | 4,203]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:03 PM, Tulpa said:

It's not unique to the AVS, though. Any HDMI solution is going to see that. Analogue Nt, Raspberry Pi, computer hooked to TV through HDMI.

It's been a known factor it shouldn't have to be disclosed.

It’s a known factor if you research it. But if you’re ignorant to it the only way you find out is when you first ask the question. Like me. Imo if I’m selling avs’s I’m letting the consumer know. But I’m also a terrible salesman and couldn’t sell a used car to save my life. You would know every single thing wrong with that car and then I would let you know what is most likely going to break soon.

[docile tapeworm | 4,203]

18 hours ago, Tulpa said:

 

You have to live under a rock not to know this.

Nah. I only found out when I played MTPO on my avs. Had no idea before that. 

[Tulpa | 3,514]

20 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

It’s a known factor if you research it. But if you’re ignorant to it the only way you find out is when you first ask the question. Like me.

 

17 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

Nah. I only found out when I played MTPO on my avs. Had no idea before that. 

Well, I hate to say it, Skinny, but that's on you. It was discussed at length on NA when people were hooking up consoles to HDMI TVs. Don't know how you missed it.

 

20 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

Imo if I’m selling avs’s I’m letting the consumer know. But I’m also a terrible salesman and couldn’t sell a used car to save my life. You would know every single thing wrong with that car and then I would let you know what is most likely going to break soon.

But it's not the car that's at fault, it's the road. If you're selling a car, are you going tell the buyer where every pothole is? No, you're not, because it's up to the owner to find out which roads suck.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Tulpa

[docile tapeworm | 4,203]

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

 

Well, I hate to say it, Skinny, but that's on you. It was discussed at length on NA when people were hooking up consoles to HDMI TVs. Don't know how you missed it.

 

But it's not the car that's at fault, it's the road. If you're selling a car, are you going tell the buyer where every pothole is? No, you're not, because it's up to the owner to find out which roads suck.

Ok.

 

Ya. That makes sense.

 

people: “I’m having trouble with lag using my avs.”

: “you should have known that”

[Gloves | 11,790]

19 minutes ago, skinnygrinny said:

Ok.

 

Ya. That makes sense.

 

people: “I’m having trouble with lag using my avs.”

: “you should have known that”

The fact is you'd be experiencing lag with any console you put onto a modern tv. 

The difference, and why the AVS (and NT) advertise no lag, is that the other consoles you'd compare them to introduce *yet more lag* beyond what the tv itself presents. The other systems which use emulation are themselves laggy, whereas the AVS and st introduce no lag. 

So they're entirely right to advertise that the console itself does not present any lag. 

That said, they could always put an asterisk next to it and a little message that explains the situation in more depth so there's no surprises. Of course I'm always in favor of more information to the consumer. They've just decided it's not their concern, it seems. 

[docile tapeworm | 4,203]

8 minutes ago, Gloves said:

The fact is you'd be experiencing lag with any console you put onto a modern tv. 

The difference, and why the AVS (and NT) advertise no lag, is that the other consoles you'd compare them to introduce *yet more lag* beyond what the tv itself presents. The other systems which use emulation are themselves laggy, whereas the AVS and st introduce no lag. 

So they're entirely right to advertise that the console itself does not present any lag. 

That said, they could always put an asterisk next to it and a little message that explains the situation in more depth so there's no surprises. Of course I'm always in favor of more information to the consumer. They've just decided it's not their concern, it seems. 

I understand they are correct that the avs introduces no lag. 
 

it’s like you said at the end for me. I’m glad I’ve got a little understanding from others about the situation. 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,013]

I am 100% sure that BunnyBoy has a thread on NA looking at lag from TVs 

[docile tapeworm | 4,203]

2 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

I am 100% sure that BunnyBoy has a thread on NA looking at lag from TVs 

I found it after I purchased my avs and played MTPO with it

[Tulpa | 3,514]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

 

That said, they could always put an asterisk next to it and a little message that explains the situation in more depth so there's no surprises. Of course I'm always in favor of more information to the consumer. They've just decided it's not their concern, it seems. 

Honest question, do either PlayStation or Xbox have this disclaimer?

[Gloves | 11,790]

18 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Honest question, do either PlayStation or Xbox have this disclaimer?

No. In fact it's quite the opposite - modern game engines account for the assumed lag. They do calculations and in some cases even pre-empt user actions. Frame buffering is a common concept in modern gaming.

[OptOut | 8,889]

Don't just rely on "game modes" folks. Go into every video setting on your HDTV and turn that shit off. I mean it. Every video enhancement setting, every image processing setting, ANY and EVERY thing the TV will try to do to get in between your system and the the screen, you turn that shit OFF.

Never seen any lag on my TV's after turning all the settings off, via HDMI or analogue connectors, if you do then it may be your TV is just wrong and not game friendly.